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Thread: Cruelty and impale

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    I wouldn't take out of focused rage if you seduced me with 10 women.
    Kaze,

    Having never had a chance for 10 women seducing me, I would have to drop the focused rage just for the experience.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    I wouldn't take out of focused rage if you seduced me with 10 women. I personally wouldn't do it, I like 2 rage revenges, 12 rage devastate, 17 rage shield slams, 9 rage heroic strikes, etc etc
    This.


    Quote Originally Posted by holmedog View Post
    I've said this other places, but I'll restate it here:

    Screw Focused Rage. Take the 3 points out of it, put them in cruelty.


    There, problem fixed.
    There was never a problem and personally i find that this kind of comment is rather unhelpful.

    Personally, I would rather saw off my own foot than take points out focused rage purely because I CAN rage starve myself. Easily. and it happens often. That said, each to their own.

    I dont mean to sound agressive and I am sorry if i have offended you in some way but, and i can not stress this enough, there is not a "single solution" to this, or any other problem regarding specs anymore. Everything that you can spec into is able to synergise with something else.

    Another point i would like to raise in regards to this; Rage efficency and threat are virtually the same thing. The more that you can do something for the cheaper you can do it, the better the results. Personally i would even possibly spec back into puncture for my threat build.

    after all of that, i would like to say that ultimatly, IT IS YOUR CHOICE. I dont mean to be saying you are wrong, because you cant be. Such is the new tank strategy. Comments along the lines of "this is the be all and end all solution to this problem" are not helpful in my honest opinion.

    If i have taken anything the wrong way or dont make any sense at all, i am sorry, it is 3 am here and i dont know why i am still awake.
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  3. #23
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    I like the rage reduction as well. BUT, I have yet to even be close to low on rage.

    Use Beserker's rage
    Use Bloodrage
    Use charge every chance you get, in combat or not.
    Use Glyph of revenge (free HS every revenge cooldown)
    Use Glyph of HS (free 10 rage on ~30% of your HS)

    I'm sorry, but with all of that rage coming in, I don't really have a need for the rage reducing talents anymore. I'd rather get the 3% crit, which also translates into more rage (3% better chance of getting 10 rage from HS, and 3% better chance of getting 120% more rage from a white attack).

    I don't mean to come off as offensive, but I'm seeing it posted everywhere that people are taking 54 points in prot, part of which is 3 points in FR. In my case, using the abilities/glyphs listed above, I have been running > 75% uptime on heroic strikes.

    The only place it really hurts me is in solo grinding. If I'm fighting two things or less, I do have to wait on rage sometimes.


    Yes, I know that FR is a 15% reduction in the worst case scenario (SS) and a 60% reduction in the best (Revenge). All around it is a very solid talent. But, it's not worth 3% crit to me. Especially not with an impale spec.
    Last edited by holmedog; 11-21-2008 at 10:55 AM.

  4. #24
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    to each their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
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  5. #25
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    Just as an update, I got curious about this and decided to do some theory crafting.

    Using the threat simulator posted on here assuming "normal" level 80 stats and HS over 40 rage over 1 minutes.


    I saw an average of 2300 TPS with 2% cruelty and 3 FR.
    I saw an average of 2700 TPS with 5% cruelty and 0 FR.

    This is with 2,000 AP, 20k armor, 20% dodge/parry 18% block, 7% hit and a base of 12% crit before talents. This is using an impale build (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft), switching out FR for Cruelty and vice versa.


    edit - I left Thunderclap with every cooldown turned on. This is what I got with it off (just keeping up the debuff). I also decided to let it run for 3 minutes to get a more accurate dataset:

    2375 TPS with 2% cruelty and 3 FR
    2675 TPS with 5% cruelty and 0 FR


    This of course isn't taking into account free HS's from glyph of revenge and free rage from glyph of HS. I'm assuming both would benefit the dropping of FR, though.
    Last edited by holmedog; 11-21-2008 at 11:28 AM.

  6. #26
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    1) the threat simulator was made for level 70 not 8
    2) the threat simulator doesn't factor in rage management, i'm pretty sure it just fires off at unlimited rage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    1) the threat simulator was made for level 70 not 8
    2) the threat simulator doesn't factor in rage management, i'm pretty sure it just fires off at unlimited rage.

    1. Then why does it have all the level 80 talents, and is easily tuned to a level 80 boss?

    2. Again, it appears to me like it was taking into account rage. And, I had "Wait on rage for shield slam" turned on.

  8. #28
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    show me the threat simulator, I may be mistaking it for a different one.

    and run it for 5 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  9. #29
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    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/4...simulator.html

    I'll get back to you on the 5 minute run. Honestly, I'm still in theory craft right now. I haven't gotten my toon to 80, and gear is going to be a factor still for me (I'm definetely not sunwell geared).

  10. #30
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    I'll need to check with Opti to see how he calculates the rage efficiency talents, I have a feel though that if you were to remove all rage conserving talents, the threat simulator wouldn't drop your tps whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  11. #31
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    Over 5 minutes:

    2172 using 3 FR with 2% cruelty
    2487 using 0 FR with 5% cruelty


    Image so you can see my setup:






    Again, it's worth noting that with glyphs, I think the TPS gap will actually widen (heroic strikes are going to be free after revenge, regardless of what they would have cost, 10 free rage after HS crits and it will crit more often with 5% cruelty).

    Of course the optimum thing would be to have both 5% cruelty and 3/3 FR. But, with an impale spec, that isn't possible. And, with Iron Will, I will be running an impale spec (and that's what this thread was all about).

  12. #32
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    what if you took out the 3/3 FR and just left it at 2/5 cruelty and ran the same tests, what numbers do you get?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  13. #33
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    2025 over a 5 minute run. Surprisingly not much loss in TPS from having 3/3 FR.

  14. #34
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    I think there's some miscalculation going on in the background then, no offense to Opti, I just think it's undervaluing the rage conservation of FR and that's why it's showing so much better for 5/5 cruelty, but you may be right anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  15. #35
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    It may also be the low end stats I'm using in the simulator. I'm using a fresh 80 tank in bare minimum raid gear.

    When you push the scales up and you start to lose rage to avoidance, and you take less damage due to armor, it may scale differently. I'm sure there is a breaking point where we will be rage starved again.

    The other key was I was using a 40 rage minimum to heroic strike. And, of course, this is an impale spec, something people around here are still arguing against completely.

  16. #36
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    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...h=021605060302

    I Believe this is an Ideal spec for singletarget raid DPS the most important talents to me are as follows:

    1) Mitigation/avoidance/survivability
    a) your obvious talents such as block, armor, and spell reduction
    b) Imp TC which basically reduces melee dmg taken by 20% (Huge)
    c) your maxed out dodge and parry
    2) your threat
    A) some may not realize it, but Vigilance is huge for a warriors threat generation, when applied to the highest DPSer in your raid (you can get even more creative and coordinate that they dont put points into threat reduction) to increase your TPS by 10% of their threat.
    B) reducing rage costs of abilities (Especially Imp HS) this allows the constant spamming of HS during even small bosses. with HS down to a 9 rage, and Zerker rage now usable w/o stance dancing, there is no reason to ever run out of rage.
    C) i feel that Impale is more ideal than cruelty for the reason that, all the warriors primary threat generating abilities now gain a bunch of crit from specialized abilities, and in a raid (which puts me at about 11-13 base crit) my SS hase a ~27% crit chance. and with diminishing returns on crit, it only makes sence to me to make those crits stronger.


    As for a rotation, i use 4 primary macros: Devastate+HS, SS + HS, Revenge + HS, and Charge + Zerker rage.
    - since the addition of SoB to the Prot tree, i feel that there should be no true rotation, only the key concept of priority
    1)Shield Slam
    2)Thunderclap Debuff
    3)Revenge (For the chance at a new SS and a Free HS)
    4)Devastate
    5)Demo shout
    (Of course spam Shield Block on cooldown due to it's seperate Global CD)
    Due to the new patch it causes Warriors to be on their toes at all times.

    NOTE: This is under the circumstances of raid boss main tanking, which basically gives a tank near-unlimited rage to work with.

    I operate on the philosiphy that if you have more than 60 rage, your not doing enough to generate/mitigate. But too little can get you caught in a sticky situation w/ ur pants down.

    No amount of reading forums will ever compensate for getting out there and tanking yourself, this is just my professional opinion. I encourage ppl to refude my thought with their reasonings, it will only make me and you better tanks!

    "Don't scimp on Stamina... But don't scimp on avoidance either!"

    Q- For the third Glyph I used Devastate, but im debating between Devastate or HS, the question i have is...
    Does the Glyph of Devastate cause you devastate to generate the additional Sunder threat in one swing?

    Ex: (Devastate dmg) + Sunder*2?

    Please reply
    Last edited by Psychopathc; 11-22-2008 at 03:30 AM. Reason: adding a quote, and a question

  17. #37
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    From my understanding Devastate no longer applies the sunder threat, just the effect, otherwise with that glyph, it would indeed be near shieldslam base threat proportions. SO the glyph is only useful for stacking sunders quickly. Good prot PVP glyph.
    November 23, 2004 8:27:03 AM - Glomgore 10+ Years of tanking? Priceless

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by holmedog View Post
    I like the rage reduction as well. BUT, I have yet to even be close to low on rage.
    Have you been in an off-tank situation yet where you don't get hit or don't get hit much?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    I think there's some miscalculation going on in the background then, no offense to Opti, I just think it's undervaluing the rage conservation of FR and that's why it's showing so much better for 5/5 cruelty, but you may be right anyways.
    I'm actually finding that the simulator produces wildly divergent results for the same setups. I've had results varying from 2000-3000 TPS for identical configurations. And specifically, I can't reproduce the results above myself.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    Have you been in an off-tank situation yet where you don't get hit or don't get hit much?
    No, but as an OT I intend to have a completely different spec anyway that includes safeguard and glyph of intervene.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft


    That way I can take a spell off of the MT, take 2 hits for him, and give him 30% reduced damage for 6 seconds every 30.







    Again, the entire reason for taking 3 out of FR and putting them into cruelty is the situations were we are taking a lot of damage anyway. Of course it isn't ideal in fights were you would be even close to rage starved.

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