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Thread: Warrior Tank Gemming!? WoTLK

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia View Post
    Avoidance does not in fact diminish the same as armor does. These easy way to see this is to realize that different avoidance types don't diminish together. If you took all of parry + dodge + miss, and did diminishing returns based on the combined value, then scaled the original p:d:m proportions to the scaled value, you *could* do that.

    But that's not how it works. Instead, each form of avoidance is diminished separately. Let's say for a moment that you have 10% dodge and 10% parry. Imagine that adding "100 item points" bumps parry up to 15%, or dodge up to 15%. Adding a further "100 item points" to either will take it to 19%: so there are diminishing returns here.
    You have probably played with the math more. Would you say each individual avoidance stat scales in a fashion similar to AC or no?

  2. #22
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    I really haven't thought this through heavily. I plan to gem for Stamina -> Threat/DPS -> Avoidance. When a socket bonus is something I want to stack (e.g. Block Value), I'll conjure up a way to meet the bonus.

  3. #23
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    Armor diminishes to 75% melee damage reduction.
    Parry (for Warriors, Pallies, DK's) diminishes to ~44%.
    Dodge (for the same) diminishes to ~88%.
    I'm not sure about Miss, though it is also diminished.

    They're diminished individually, though the individual factors are diminished next to the other factors for the same stat. So Agi, Def, and Dodge rating are all diminished appropriately for the net effect on the dodge %, but it is not done to the base and talented contributions (so, base dodge chance everyone has, and 5/5 Anticipation will not affect the diminishing).

    This has been misinterpretted by some as, 100 dodge rating gets me 3% now, the next 100 rating gets me only 1.8%, ergo that 100 rating was less valuable than the previous. The point of diminishing returns is that the closer you get to 100% the more effect you get from the same % (go way back to early explanations of armor on lifespan). The reality is that every increment of stat is the same lifespan value as the last, just like Stam. Stam has the nice quality of being the life pool that all the other stats functionally make go farther (EH theory telling us that the best way for new content is to have enough health that you can take the biggest hit and the damage will be fairly continuous and less spikey, which is predictable and thereby safer).

    I do love the symmetry of well-crafted mathematical systems.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Armor diminishes to 75% melee damage reduction.
    Parry (for Warriors, Pallies, DK's) diminishes to ~44%.
    Dodge (for the same) diminishes to ~88%.
    I'm not sure about Miss, though it is also diminished.

    They're diminished individually, though the individual factors are diminished next to the other factors for the same stat. So Agi, Def, and Dodge rating are all diminished appropriately for the net effect on the dodge %, but it is not done to the base and talented contributions (so, base dodge chance everyone has, and 5/5 Anticipation will not affect the diminishing).

    This has been misinterpretted by some as, 100 dodge rating gets me 3% now, the next 100 rating gets me only 1.8%, ergo that 100 rating was less valuable than the previous. The point of diminishing returns is that the closer you get to 100% the more effect you get from the same % (go way back to early explanations of armor on lifespan). The reality is that every increment of stat is the same lifespan value as the last, just like Stam. Stam has the nice quality of being the life pool that all the other stats functionally make go farther (EH theory telling us that the best way for new content is to have enough health that you can take the biggest hit and the damage will be fairly continuous and less spikey, which is predictable and thereby safer).

    I do love the symmetry of well-crafted mathematical systems.
    This analogy is, in my opinion, quite horribly flawed .

    Damage reduction due to armor does not diminish to 75% mitigation - it is arbitrarily capped at that.

    Just using the level 70 example:

    Quoting Armor - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

    DR% = Armor / (Armor + (467.5 * AttackerLevel - 22167.5))

    The armor cap at 70 vs a level 73 mob is 35,880. With this amount of armor:

    DR% = 35,880 / (35,880 + (467.5 * 73 - 22,167.5)) = 35,880 / 47,840 = 75%

    Imagine you had 50k armor instead:

    DR% = 50,000 / 61,960 = 80.7% - that's how much the formula says you should have, well above the 75%. But when in game you'll see that the damage is not being reduced by more than 75% due to armor, simply because blizzard set it that way.

    Basically the DR% formula is:

    DR% = A / (A + C) where C is a constant value fixed by level. The larger A is relative to C, the closer A is to equalling (A + C). So as A tends to infinite, A / (A + C) tends to 100%. So, sure, the formula for damage mitigation due to armor has diminishing returns in that it will tend to 100% but never get there, but this doesn't match what occurs in game.

    In game, as soon as you get to 75% damage mitigation from armor, you hit a brick wall. There's no elegant asymptote, but an arbitrary cut-off point dropped in by Blizzard saying "you will not, ever, get more than 75% damage reduction due to armor".


    This is very different to how the diminishing returns on avoidance work.

    With the diminishing returns formula as explained in Satrina's article:



    "Where
    A is the amount of avoidance before diminishing returns
    c is the cap for the avoidance stat
    k is the constant for your class
    Ad is the amount of avoidance after diminishing returns are applied (how much your avoidance actually increases)"

    Let's take the example of warrior - parry.

    In this case:

    c = 47.0%
    1/c = 0.021275
    k = 0.956

    So parry is supposedly capped at 47% in this formula. What happens if the person in question somehow had 80% parry before calculating diminishing returns? At level 80, 80% parry = 3,934.4 parry rating - obviously not going to happen, but it doesn't matter for the sake of this example.

    A = 80
    k/A = 0.956/80 = 0.01195
    1/c + k/A = 0.021275 + 0.01195 = 0.033225 = 1/Ad
    Ad = 1/0.033225 = 30.1%

    Now, we're still well short of the supposed cap, but our initial 80% parry has been stunted to a mere 30% through diminishing returns! Looking at the formula though, it's easy to see why:

    the k/A part, or 0.956/A - as A becomes bigger and bigger 0.956/A becomes smaller and smaller. As A tends to infinite, 0.956/A tends to 0. So, as A tends to infinite:

    1/c + k/A => 1/c + 0


    1/Ad => to 1/c

    Ad => c

    e.g. the larger A is, the closer the diminished value comes to the cap, but it can never exceed it. And the cap is a value that can be tweaked at will by Blizzard, compared to the relatively simplistic AC model which can only ever cap out at 100% diminishing returns, but has an arbitrary cut-off point placed on it at 75% long before DR due to AC gets close to 100%.

    "This has been misinterpretted by some as, 100 dodge rating gets me 3% now, the next 100 rating gets me only 1.8%, ergo that 100 rating was less valuable than the previous. "

    This is in fact, exactly the case though.

    Taken to extremes - having 50,000 parry rating, you still won't hit the cap (as you only hit the cap at infinite), but your diminished parry will end up as follows:

    50,000 parry rating at 80 = 1,016.7%

    A = 1,016.7
    k/A = 0.956/1,016.7 = 0.0009403
    1/c + k/A = 0.021275 + 0.0009403 = 0.022215 = 1/Ad
    Ad = 1/0.022215 = 45.01%

    Let's throw another 1,000 parry rating at it:

    51,000 parry rating at 80 = 1,037.0% (so we're adding another 20.3% parry here)

    Ad = 1/0.022197 = 45.04%

    So adding another 20.3% parry has resulted in a 0.03% increase in parry due to diminishing returns.

    Obviously, the numbers I use are greatly exaggerated to illustrate the point, but I hope it's clear that there's a significant difference between the "diminishing returns" of armor (which isn't really diminishing returns as such, as the last 1k armor you add will increase time to live by the same amount as the very first you throw on, right until the moment you cross the arbitrary 75% threshold) and the diminishing returns on avoidance stats (where no matter how much of one stat you try to add, you will never reach the value blizzard set for it, but get ever closer).
    Last edited by Rhiannon; 11-15-2008 at 04:56 AM.

  5. #25
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    my god the math. Quick someone grab Hypatia or Satrina cuz we don't get it!


    j/k

    True, Rhiannon is correct in that the Armor Mitigation cap is a hardcap enforced by code not by the formula.

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  6. #26
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    Interesting discussion, the diminishing returns on avoidance have definitely stirred things up. I expect that a full understanding/analysis won't be ironed out until there is a large pool of cumulative experience and data.

    Given that each avoidance stat diminishes independently it seems like your best bet to maximize your stat allocation would be to equally (or at least roughly equally as best you can do with your gear options) balance all of these different stats - parry, dodge and block.

    Effective health will probably still have its advantages for pushing new content but I'm curious if won't be as critical now that crushes are gone. Before for Warriors a huge worry was that if a boss hit fast enough or got parry-hasted a lot he could eat through your Shield Block charges before you could reapply and you could eat a crush, but with that gone the only real worry is having enough health to live through a hit-string or thrash or any encounter-specific burst damage. Beyond that, it would seem like taking a well-balanced approach to gearing would be sound.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyke View Post
    the only real worry is having enough health to live through a hit-string or thrash or any encounter-specific burst damage. Beyond that, it would seem like taking a well-balanced approach to gearing would be sound.
    I'm 77 atm, so I haven't been into the new raids yet, but I have a feeling there will be plenty of fights with significant burst damage that will still warrant having a lot of EH.
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  8. #28
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    How is your defense rating/uncrittableness coming along? I mostly am still using my old 70 ~t6/badge epics - every socket (and there are a lot) +12 defense rating, shield +20 defense rating, chest I believe +22 defense rating at level 78 I have 530 - just barely making the 5.6% cut off. Which means when I hit 80 I'll have to use my pvp trinket to stay uncrittable! Time to go farm halls of lightning for that 68 defense trinket.

  9. #29
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    i am finding now that i am defence capped, that my expertise and hit are at seriouly low levels.

    i am finding the 6 expertise/12 stam gem quite handy.

  10. #30
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    I'd have to agree with Xav about the whole stamina mentality again. Back in TBC it wasn't until post dungeon nerfs or the very very final tier of gearing up (full Sunwell/T6) that it became worth gemming any sort of avoidance. With the expansion this becomes even more true with the diminishing returns of the avoidance.

    When I first hit 80 alot of my gems went to defense because crit capping was the hardest part until I started to pull in some heroic and emblem loot. I made sure to enchant defense on all my gear first because it is better point for point vs stamina/health enchants assuming it lets you use stamina gems in lieu of defense gems. As I gear up more in 10/25 man loot I find those remaining defense gems disappearing now and being replaced with stamina gems or stamina/avoidance gems if the socket bonus is worthwhile.

    I did not have the foresight to go JC but I will shortly. JC is amazing for a warrior because it lets you take those wonderful 41 stam gems and fill in colors you do not like to fill in while still getting socket bonuses. Correct me if I'm wrong but they also cover the meta requirements. I think that eventually in 10/25 man gear we won't even need full defense enchants nor will we need defense trinkets. As warriors we also have an advantage in being able to use the 20 defense gun over the other tank classes. That allows us to convert even more sockets/enchants/trinkets into stamina.

    I just don't see the point in stacking up the dodge/parry at this point. I'm already feeling the diminishing return hits at 23% dodge and 17% parry. Even fully gemmed for avoidance I doubt you could net much. I would much rather be looking at a couple thousand extra hps vs a couple % of avoidance. If Malygos is any hint the upcoming content in Ulduar is going to hit really damn hard. I would kill to have the extra health to survive a third or even fourth hit from those mobs.

    I think the best bet will be aiming to get gear with high defense/dodge/parry mixed on one piece. You get the most from item level and the best weapon against diminishing returns that way. Stack stamina gems on it and you will have solid avoidance and insanely high health without letting any one avoidance stat eat up too many points from being overgeared.

  11. #31
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    Personally I will be following the same principle I did pre-Wrath, and that is

    Avoidance comes from gear, stamina from gems.

    With diminishing returns on avoidance, this is even more true. I have already hit more than 50% raid-buffed avoidance in a few Naxx 10man epics, 2pc Heroes T7, and some very good heroic and crafted blues, and I'm thinking that 50-60% avoidance will be the mark to aim at for most of our career, as any more than that and you're starting to need to spend too much item budget to get each percentage point. The only thing I'd probably consider socketing besides stamina is strength, as it increases EH through block value as well as increasing threat, but that will probably be rare.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexxaa View Post
    i am finding now that i am defence capped, that my expertise and hit are at seriouly low levels.

    i am finding the 6 expertise/12 stam gem quite handy.
    omgz hi lexx!

    I'm actually finding that I don't need the expertise and hit. I am sustaining about 4k TPS on bosses, spiking to around 5k if I get a string of crits, or when I pop Shield Block and get a string of SnB procs, leaving me WELL above the DPSers.

    Lack of expertise hurts me on an unlucky Dodge against a needed Shield Slam causing a late mob pickup, but everything so far seems to be tauntable except for Sapphiron, and I am sitting at about 4% hit which seems to be enough so far. I figure more expertise will come with higher gear, but for now I don't really need the extra threat.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalphir View Post
    I figure more expertise will come with higher gear, but for now I don't really need the extra threat.
    Wait till your DPS start picking up real dps upgrades. A week ago I could lay back and without even trying I surpassed the DPS in threat by a large margain. But lately I have to work hard sometimes.

    Especially on those fights where the DPS gets extra buffs, but the tank does not. Think for example of Malygos, the DPS gets 50% or 100% damage increase. This means you have to work really hard to stay above them.

    At the moment it is the lack of +hit and expertise that hurts the most, and while gear has some of it, it's defenitly not enough.

  14. #34
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    zomg hi dalph!

    yeah im sticking with the expertise, it's helping my survivability while helping my damage output which is IMO important. i find the gear isnt enough, and im already noticing the DPS catching up on particular fights

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Yeah.

    All tanking stats now have a linear effect on lifespan increase, if Blizz did there math well, which I'm inclined to believe since they've read all of your theory as well and actually designed the formulae underneath, then any given gem should offer equivalent stat value. That being said, so long as the socket bonus is something you can benefit from, I'd wager it's in your interest to get that bonus, since it is a bonus on top of the cumulative gem totals.
    Its definitely not a safe assumption that blizzard knows what the crap they are doing. Take for example dps classes and ap vs str/agi gems. There are extremely clear cut better choices for most classes. Look at how poorly they still itemize some classes (wtf is up with resto druid gear seriously). Look at how very poorly balanced the t7 set bonuses are.

    One thing I don't get is why is capping +hit so important for melee classes and not for tanks. Missing bosses would seem to be very bad considering how closely dpsing a boss and causing threat to a boss work.

  16. #36
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    I don't think I'll be socketing for str or expertise on other than threat pieces. Having two sets or even couple alternative pieces with heavy threat itemisation seems better for adjusting gear balance on the fly instead of just sticking to one set that has little bit of everything without excelling at anything.
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  17. #37
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    Interesting read.

    In BC, I was a Stamina gem all the way guy, too. But there have been some very important changes in WotLK, from what I've noticed.

    1) Rage seems much more plentiful than before. Berserker rage popped every cooldown, much more Strength on the gear, free HS's from glyph, free Shield Slams, etc. It all is adding up to a lot more rage. To me, rage starvation was an important argument in the EH vs. Avoidance debate. Too much avoidance could leave you rage starved if you got a "lucky" string. Not that big of a deal anymore. So to me, this works in favor of avoidance.

    2) Deminishing returns on avoidance. Jury is still out, IMO, on how this will ultimately affect things. But it's clear to me that avoidance point per point is not quite as valuable as it used to be, and when you do get avoidance, you want a variety instead of just stacking one kind. This makes +Defense Rating more valuable relative to +Dodge Rating in WotLK because Defense spreads the avoidance across several different catagories. In BC, the two were about equal.

    3) Our damage is more important to the raid than it was before. It used to not matter. Now it does because we're able to contribute a meaningful amount. This to me makes Block Value, Expertise, Agility, Strength, Hit, and Crit more important than they were in BC. We're not just getting those stats for Threat now. We're getting it for both Threat and Damage.

    4) The Defense cap is harder to get to. When we first hit 70, we were already there. Now we have to work for it. Including gemming for it, at least until later on when we get to full T7 and beyond.

    Add all that up, and this is how I am starting to gem, as I upgrade pieces and no longer need all +Defense gems to stay capped. If the socket bonus is at all useful...

    Blue: +24 Stamina
    -A gimme.

    Yellow: +8 Defense/12 Stamina
    -To help stay capped, and for nicely varied avoidance.

    Red: +8 Agility/12 Stamina
    -IMO, Agility really is an awesome stat now that our damage means a lot more than it used to. It gives us a boost to Damage/Threat, Effective Health, and Avoidance all in one stat. Overall, it's very comparable to pure Dodge Rating, and point for point, even slightly better, IMO.

    I may change my mind down the road, and go back to pure EH gemming (probably after I get smacked by some new boss that hits really really hard ), but for now I'm going to try the above.
    Last edited by Kerg; 12-22-2008 at 04:22 PM.

  18. #38
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    You gain enough expertise from higher gear to make up for needing any of it gemmed. A couple of T7 pieces and some Sartharion legs and you are golden. Enchant it too if you feel the need.

    I'd like the idea of agility gemming if it benefited us to the same degree as other classes. Sure the extra ounce of crit is nice but the dodge will be diminished to garbage in 25 man gear and you're paying the cost of stamina, alot of stamina if you are a JC who could drop a prismatic into the red or yellow slot.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightmgl View Post
    You gain enough expertise from higher gear to make up for needing any of it gemmed. A couple of T7 pieces and some Sartharion legs and you are golden. Enchant it too if you feel the need.

    I'd like the idea of agility gemming if it benefited us to the same degree as other classes. Sure the extra ounce of crit is nice but the dodge will be diminished to garbage in 25 man gear and you're paying the cost of stamina, alot of stamina if you are a JC who could drop a prismatic into the red or yellow slot.
    Well, I am a JC, so yeah, I will be putting +41 Stam in the first 3 red slots, which which probably won't leave room for many Agility gems if any. But that is still my plan if I have any remaining reds and the socket bonus is useful. If I feel like I am hurting for stamina I may change my mind, though. Hell, the 8Agil/12Stam gem is not even out yet, though I expect it to be added next patch.

    The blueprint is still a work in progress for WotLK gearing/gemming, IMO. Especially since we don't know what the next tier of raid content is going to bring to the table, and the difficulty is supposed to ramp up.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightmgl View Post
    Enchant it too if you feel the need.
    I'm gemming all for stamina since the most important fights are all EH battles.
    (Sapphiron, Kelthuzad, Malygos, Sartharion 3D)

    Also there are many EH battles in Naxx like Anub'rekan (HP helps you with if you kite bad), Maexxena (wep spray), Loatheb (long periods without heal), 4H (surviving the auras).

    I don't see many opportunities where avoidance could shine though. Gluth maybe, dodging a hit or two after decimate if your healers are bad... and that's about it.

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