War/Pally comparison

[Hevy]

Blizzard told us they wanted to make all classes able to tank all bosses in wotlk. I have a 70 tankadin and a 70 War protection: before 3.0 the differences between the two classes were huge, now they are much more similar. But they are still not the same.

While Pallys are still in a position of advantage in terms of Aoe tanking, I was wondering if there is a “theory” comparison between the two classes, to see where war is still the better choice (stamina? Mitigation?...).

TY

[Ashyn]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe wars have higher stamina totals. Avoidance should literally almost be a non-issue since they are going to be using the same gear. However I did read (no link sorry) that with the new shield block and with the talent critical block, wars are showing to mitigate more damage overall.

Wars are still absolute beasts for single target threat. I don't believe this has changed, and palis got hit with some recent nerfs that seems to have affected their dps and tps.

If anyone has anything more in detail pls share. I have no real hard numbers to back myself up here.

[Kazeyonoma]

because of holy shield, paladins mitigate more damage because they can reliably block every attack that gets past their avoidance where as warriors have 30 seconds where they can't force attacks through their shield block value.

[Ashyn]

Are you sure about this kaz? I'll try to find the post I was reading, but someone had numbers that were actually showing the opposite, that wars mitigate more, I think perhaps it may be more over a longer period of time, but still?

Anyone have some hard evidence on this either way?

[Worldie]

On the course of a long fight, a warrior will mitigate more damage, but it will be spikey, because you will be alternating periods in which you may block 2x (if not 4x with SB up) to periods of avoidance streaks, to eventually avoidance failures and get 2-3 full hits in a row.

A warrior (due to critical block) will mitigate more damage, but a paladin will mitigate damage more often.

[Minya]

Blizzard told us they wanted to make all classes able to tank all bosses in wotlk. I have a 70 tankadin and a 70 War protection: before 3.0 the differences between the two classes were huge, now they are much more similar. But they are still not the same.

While Pallys are still in a position of advantage in terms of Aoe tanking, I was wondering if there is a “theory” comparison between the two classes, to see where war is still the better choice (stamina? Mitigation?...).

TY

as ashyn mentioned already, warriors do have higher HP than pals. I know that pals should scale better, but every single warri I inspect has more HP than me (even if their gear is a bit lower than mine). almost same gems, for sure.
at levle 80, pals should have a bit more HP because of itemization, I think.

warriors do more single-target TPS than pallys.
pallys do more ae-TPS than warriors.

in terms of mitigation the warri lies ahead a bit. but, as already mentioned, it's more spikely. they can use their shield block as a "mini shield wall" when u know that there are dmg-pikes to come, for example. pals have a very linear mitigation, but overall at a little less niveau. (does that sound correctly? english is not my first language and I'm awake for about 23hours now :x )

[uglybbtoo]

Well explained Worldie as always ...

Havent played a druid tank but both warrior and pally are much for much now its subtle differences the higher single target threat and spell reflect on warrior and better aoe tanking on pally.

On beta I almost play the two identically I only have trouble with aoe tanking on warrior when the mob numbers start getting really high but to be honest a really good warrior could prob do it and I have trouble with casters on pally tank there are few options to deal with them.

My biggest gripe atm is the ret nerf has made mana back to problematic on pally tank so hoping they fix that again.

Edit: Yes warriors have higher HP but they expect more spikey damage its alot like druids .. enuf HP so it doesnt matter.

[Stearns]

I've read a lot of theory but if you want to make a decision about your main, remember the results often have a wide margin for error (that means eg a 5% theory difference, with a 10% margin of error in real world play), and skill varies so highly. So I dont think its such a big deal.

[Ashyn]

I've read a lot of theory but if you want to make a decision about your main, remember the results often have a wide margin for error (that means eg a 5% theory difference, with a 10% margin of error in real world play), and skill varies so highly. So I dont think its such a big deal.

Yea, all theory aside, it seems like blizz has really made the tanks shine overall, so just let it come down to what class you prefer to play more

P.S. WTB a single target taunt and compensation for the "lolret" nerfs to my prot brothers.

[Taelas]

The delta in damage taken is going to be negligible compared to skill and gear differences. The classes still use gear differently, and you will never be able to realistically equalize every aspect of their gear.

My point is... there's not really enough of a difference to really call it a difference anymore. The advantage is going to swing from one to the other depending on the situation.

[Hevy]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but regarding mitigation:

WARRIOR

-10% damage (defensive stance) plus
- 6% damage (improved defensive stance) plus
- 3% damage (Blessing of Sanctuary, while playing with a tankadin)

TANKADIN

- 6% damage (improved righteous fury)
- 3% damage (blessing of sanctuary)

This can be a huge difference between the two classes in terms of mitigation: am I missing something?

H

[Ashyn]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but regarding mitigation:

WARRIOR

-10% damage (defensive stance) plus
- 6% damage (improved defensive stance) plus
- 3% damage (Blessing of Sanctuary, while playing with a tankadin)

TANKADIN

- 6% damage (improved righteous fury)
- 3% damage (blessing of sanctuary)

This can be a huge difference between the two classes in terms of mitigation: am I missing something?

H

Imp Def Stance is -6% spell damage, not all damage.
Shield of the Templar is a Pali talent that reduces all damage by a further 3% (@3/3 points of course)

It's not quite so cut and dry, alot of abilities and talents have to be considered here, not just outright -X% damage modifiers.
Palis mitigate damage very well and do so more consistently than wars, altho wars will mitigate more damage (albeit spiker) over a longer period of time.

[Durenas]

Tankadin: -6% damage, imp RF, -3% damage shield of the templar, -3% damage, BoS.

[Ashyn]

Hmm also, Guarded by the Light, -6% spell damage talent. This is akin to wars imp def stance.

(Sorry its late and I admit I am not that well versed in the pali prot tree)

[Petninja]

Do pallys have any buttons they can push in case an "oh noes" scenario occurs? I know of Lay O' Hands but I think the CD is pretty long. Bosses don't seem to like the bubbles and shy away from those. I've said it before, more often than not Shield Block is actually better than Shield Wall and Shield Wall is pretty awesome. Is LoH enough to balance that out?

[Hevy]

Ok I was missing something

[2ndNin]

Basically:

Warriors take spike damage when not using shield block, but mitigate more during that period

Paladins take steady damage, but have lower overall damage reduction (which is an issue they might be looking at in T7+)

Paladins have lower health, fewer emergency buttons (LS, Frenzied regen vs LoH), and a lack of general "utility" such as focus attacks, spell reflects etc. In return they gain better AoE tanking, multi-target taunt as standard and a few other toys like BoF/bubble to clear debuffs.

[Narshe]

Paladins have Divine protection that acts as a Shield Wall. They can't improve it, tho.

[Worldie]

We do improve it
Sacred Duty - Spell - World of Warcraft
It's a mandatory talent for every paladin. Actually for the stamina, not really for the bubblewall cd reduction.

Also, to the posters above, Shield of the Templar is 3% more damage reduction, Guarded by the light is 6% more spelldamage reduction.

[jere]

melee reduction:
Warrior: 10%
Paladin: 0.94*0.97 = 0.9118 => 8.82%

spell reduction:
Warrior: 0.9*0.94 = 0.846 => 15.4%
Paladin: 0.94*0.97*0.94 = 0.857 => 14.3%

Those don't account for BoS, but it can be placed on any tank, so I left that off.