I mis-read the post above me. Anywho your priority should still always be SS>Revenge>Devastate.
Last edited by Inaara; 11-07-2008 at 01:20 PM.
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This is a really interesting discussion. Problem is, it's basically speculation on what feels right. I wonder if we could make use of the averaged rotation thread to math it out, or even make a calculator.
The averaged rotation thread, last time I checked, was based on a rule of SS > Rev > Dev, and had nothing to do with SnB procs or not. I wonder what would happen if we changed the ruleset to a different priority listing.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we don't yet have access to the glyph of of blocking, which will give us another 10% block value. And there very well may be a point where our gear will scale such that either shield slam or revenge will easily surpass the other.
Basically what I'm saying (like Kazey said) is, if TPS is your first priority to the exclusion of rage or engagement considerations, then non-SnB Shield Slam should be prioritized over Revenge and should always be kept on CD. But if rage efficiency, or something other than TPS is your primary concern, then Rev is proly more important that non-SnB SS.But that non-SnB SS didn't give me a free Heroic Strike, or that extra sunder, and it doesn't have the possibility to proc SnB.
True. When I say "open" I guess I'm referring to the opening of the rotation, which could easily come after a Charge, TC, Shockwave, and Demo Shout, in which case Revenge could be up. I stick to my statement towards Prunetracy that despite the differences in timing, there will in fact be situations where you have to choose between normal revenge and normal shield slam. For example, assume that in his example, "time 0.0" is the first action opportunity after his "opening sequence" and at the start of his "rotation."You need to block, dodge or parry to revenge.... I don't understand how or why one would attempt to open with that.
I'll echo what I've heard a lot of the guys around here say, which is don't get into too much of a rut with a standard rotation, especially nowadays. Facerolling 2, 3, 4, 4 will probably get you through today, but soon that might not be the case. The idea of including Conc Blow in your rotation, for example, might not be appropriate if you don't outgear the instance and you've got a 6-mob pull on your hands and you need to spread out your damage mitigation abilities (Conc Blow on one, Disarm on another, Revenge-procced stun on another, etc)until one or two of the mobs drop.
You've just gone through a Revenge and two Devastates and Sword and Board hasn't proc'd. The stars align and the cooldowns match up on Shield Slam and Rev. They both cool down simultaneously.
By choosing Revenge, you get a free Heroic strike and maybe a free Shield Slam. If you are prioritizing SS next, you get 1 regular shield slam if Sword and Board doesn't proc Now the two highest threat moves are on CD, and you're spamming Devastate and HS for the next 3 or 4 seconds.
By choosing Shield Slam, you put it on cooldown and go to Revenge. You now have in the same six second window a Shield Slam, a Revenge, and a free Heroic Strike. But you are also increasing the likelihood of a free SS by 33% (this math doesn't feel super precise to me, someone who knows probability better care to confirm the exact number?)
So, route one, you get 1 Rev, 1 free HS, 1 SS that might be free and at most 1 totally free SS (factoring in GCD)
Route two, you get 1 Rev, 1 free HS, 1 regular Shield Slam and up to two free SS. (again, factoring in GCD)
Let me caveat all of this by saying this is assuming a high rage situation.
Again, my probability/statistics is iffy from a pure number stand point (I feel like the exact +likelihood is smaller), but I stand by the logic.
But, having just written this, I wonder if what people are saying is, "We should be working our CDs around revenge now". Would a five second loop be that much different than a six second one?
Last edited by Bihn; 11-07-2008 at 02:15 PM. Reason: clarity; additional material
Interestingly enough there was a pair of threads recently where two people computed the usage % of SS, rev, and dev under two different priority lists out to the bijillionth (technical term) global. The first was the list that Cider and others originally proposed, and which I refer to as the "rage-conservative" list of SnB SS > Rev > SS > Dev. The second was the list that I mentioned in multiple threads, which I refer to as the "max-threat" list of SS (SnB or not) > Rev > Dev.
The weird thing is that the net difference in the percentage that SS, dev, and rev were each used b/w these two lists was utterly negligible. I can only assume, then, that the frequency with which both revenge and SS are off cooldown AND using the revenge in this scenario would proc SnB is pretty low.
-The good news: it doesn't matter much whether you pop a rev or a non-SnB SS on a regular basis as far as net threat output and net damage are concerned (and we can probably infer that the difference in net rage expended would be similarly small).
-The bad news: in particular snapshots of a given boss encounter where we're dealing with variances in rage income this bit of info doesn't give us much guidance. I'd recommend knowing the two ways of prioritizing and letting it rip when you feel comfortable with your rage income and backing down to the conservative list when you're a little starved.
One more point: I don't think it's a good idea to use CB or SW unless you have only 1 global before SS would be off CD. Even having a 30% shot at saving 1.5 secs on your SS cd is probably worth using a dev over CB and SW in any normal tanking gearset (maybe if you were stacking ap things would be different). Also, don't use them if you're rage-starved, as they really can't compare in efficiency to puncture+dev+SnB. Fishing for procs is going to get you through a lot of miserable situations that previously would've left everyone in your raid threatcapped till you finally got some rage to work with.
Most people assume infinite rage in the discussion about prioritizing Revenge or SS without SnB proc. However, infinite rage situations are quite rare, this is true even for raids at level 80. Using Revenge first will save a lot of rage which eventually results in more Heroic Strikes. It always depends a bit on your current rage level though, if it is high already, you are likely to waste rage by going over 100 the next time you get hit. Generally I would stick to something like this:
with less than ~65 rage (rough value, can also vary by encounter):
Dev/CB/SW depending on SS cooldown etc
with 65 or more rage:
Dev/CB/SW depending on SS cooldown
I would think another factor in this discussion should be the potential for stun on Rev. I go back to my 6-mob pull situation and would suggest that the potential for decreased damage income might push Rev over the top in those situations where you're in a difficult spot.
Lets keep this discussion towards single mob tanking. If we started getting into multiple mob tanking then the entire rotation would be subject to change. Lets also assume that the mob we are tanking is stun immune. So no CB or Imp Revenge procs.
In that vein, then, a possible off-topic but definitely related question that I haven't seen answered elsewhere and couldn't find with a quick forum search: when tanking a single (stun immune) boss, does CB have the same threat as on a regular mob since it doesn't stun?
The threat is based off of the damage it produces not the stun. Imp revenge works the same way.