Bleed Effects and the Warrior Tank

[Nektarious]

I have been trying to determine the approximate threat per second bonus for going into arms to take at least one point in Deep Wounds. I plan on using a 13/3/55 build as such.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Has anyone thought along these same lines?
If you disagree with it please state why as well as what improvments you think could be done with it.

I posted something to this effect about a week ago on the WoW Tank forums, but most were more concerned with the question I had raised about the TC tooltip in comparison with other warrior ability tooltips and if it would proc Deep Wounds to continue along the train of thought of the benifits bleed effects have concerning aggro generation.

[Lionheart]

I have nothing really to back up my thoughts on the bleed proc it seems like it has the potential to add a slight bit of threat for aoe tanking assuming it will proc off the crits from damage shield. Overall however unless the amount of AoE tanking stays the same doing level 80 heroics initially it seems likely that the headaches from getting a crit on a mob that has broken CC when you rush to pick it up while the CCer is trying to recover from the lapse could potentally cause significant issues.

[Andenthal]

I belive the general consensus is "yes, Deep wounds is nice"

The one (major) downfall is the talent requirements to get it. Iron will is 2 wasted points off the bat, and some say they will no longer spec into Imp HS with the amount of rage generated now.

Deep wounds procs off critical hits, basically scaling with your crit %. Cruelty, for example, works for all attacks at all gear levels.

[Fenicks]

I belive the general consensus is "yes, Deep wounds is nice"

The one (major) downfall is the talent requirements to get it. Iron will is 2 wasted points off the bat, and some say they will no longer spec into Imp HS with the amount of rage generated now.

Deep wounds procs off critical hits, basically scaling with your crit %. Cruelty, for example, works for all attacks at all gear levels.

Yes, the amount Deep Wounds procs is based only on your crit%; however, as per the tooltip, it causes a bleed for 16/32/48% of your weapon's average damage, which surely scales with both your weapon and your AP.

The talent is of course nice. But while I feel that I can reach far enough into Arms to pick up Impale, I can't (won't?) sacrifice 3 more points to pick up Deep Wounds.

edit: Reread your post, you never implied that Deep Wounds only scaled with crit...but the information still stands.

[robowarriorx]

Coming from a different, albeit similar perspective, when I spec into arms dps, I can tell you almost 20% of my damage was coming from deep wounds, per recount. Following this train of thought, I could only guess that the potential of tanking with it would be most impressive.

[Ghladum]

This is interesting. I'm pretty sure that unless I see math that explicitly states otherwise, I'm going to go for 12 points in Arms for 2/2 Impale at 80. The only thing I was planning on doing differently was 3/3 in Armored to the Teeth, rather than 3/3 in Deep Wounds.

Given a rough Armor count of ~20,000 for WOLK, that equates to +333 AP from Armored to the Teeth.

If a raiding Warrior has ~25% crit to our TClap, S.Slam, Devastate and Cleave (and IF Tclap procs the Deep Wounds debuff), this could be very odd.

Don't forget the Trauma talent deeper in Arms, though, which increases Bleeds by 30%...

There must be a break point between a Warrior's armor amount and his weapon damage where the talent points do more or less damage...

[Glomgore]

Deep wounds from a tank perspective is bad, nothing like smacking that mob on teh side to grab some threat to have a mage sheep it, and your bleed break CC.

Bad tank.

[Galushi]

Theres are a couple drawbacks for Deep Wounds for the lvl 80 tank build.

As Glomgore mentioned, an "unlucky" crit can apply a bleed effect that makes it a pain to CC a mob. Lately, we dont cc as much so its not terribly an issue, but its still a factor.

Deep Wounds will not proc off Damage Shield or Thunderclap. I dont remember if it works on shockwave or not.

Sure deepwounds does 20% of total dmg for a arms spec, but thats with guarenteed Trauma. Deep Wound damage is gonna be scaling with MH dmg, and your various crit rates for abilities. Even with Critical Block and Sword and Board, we probably wont surpass 30% crit with Dev/SS/HS in tanking gear while raid buffed. Arms is rocking 40+% crit with a 2h, so each crit is gonna apply a much large DoT effect. As a tank we will probably be using a fast 1h, which isnt gonna stack much of a bleed.

It would be a lot of work to theorycraft it out considering im not sure the exact method Deep Wounds dmg is applied. Its small bleeds may still outthreat something like 3% overall crit, but it might be close. 3% crit from a math standpoint could never be more then a 4% straight dmg increase ( would be a little less then 3%, but cant ignore that it also bumps rage generation). I'd say if you could go 3/3 deepwounds and its dmg amounted to at least 4% of your total, it would be a better investment then 3 points of cruelty.

[clavarnway]

Deep wounds from a tank perspective is bad, nothing like smacking that mob on teh side to grab some threat to have a mage sheep it, and your bleed break CC.

Bad tank.

Eh, Mages can Glyph so it doesn't break if they are really worried that much.

Glyph of Polymorph - Item - World of Warcraft

[Heartwood]

Eh, Mages can Glyph so it doesn't break if they are really worried that much.

Glyph of Polymorph - Item - World of Warcraft

Meanwhile... On the mage forums:

"Glyph for polymorphs without bleed effects breaking them?! If tanks are that worried about broken CC, they wouldn't spec into DoT effects."

As a tank, never count on someone else's cleverness, only your own. I wouldn't spec into this myself as the benefit really isn't worth it for the potential CC issues.

[Nektarious]

Based off of the discussion I think that I will be going with a spec along these lines. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The only point I hold in contention is the one in imp disarm. That will be dependant upon how many bosses can be disarmed. An extra 5% damage for the raid while the target is disarmed is a rather hefty amount. If it is a large number of mobs/bosses that can be disarmed I think it will end up being best to forgo the point in imp revenge for two points in imp disarm. If it ends up being not as beneficial I will have to go for the points in Cruelty for the scalability.