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Thread: Vigilance - Why, oh why...

  1. #41
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    Yes, that's exactly what I ment ^^

    Isn't that how all buffs work?
    In my opinion, no. Your mileage may vary but if I'd buff you with Battleshout I'm only handing you a tool ( in the form of x added Attack Power ) for you to use as good as you can. With Vigilance it's basically like I'd ask you to do part of my job for me and the increase in abilities that work exactly like that makes me worried about our future role.

    Both players are better off for it, and it helps both players to do their job better.
    Yea that might be true and I won't argue the benefit of using Vigilance, but are those 2 players still actually doing their jobs?



    Also I still can't see how we will not be balanced around having Vigilance, yes they stated that they won't balance us around it but they also stated that DPSers would catch up to us after Naxx25. Doesn't this turn Vigilance into a flat 10% tps increase for us? Not a stable 10%, since we are not in control of this threat but wouldn't it be a significant huge chunk of our threat? How could we not be balanced around having it?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sevaar View Post
    With Vigilance it's basically like I'd ask you to do part of my job for me and the increase in abilities that work exactly like that makes me worried about our future role.
    I suppose I'm asking someone else to help me do my job, but I'm not asking them to do anything different. I cast Vigilance on them, they keep doing their job and I reap the benefit. Players don't play differently when they have Vigilance on them except with the possibility that they can do their job better if they're not threat capped.

    I'm not at all worried about a future where tanks don't tank anymore. Blizzard isn't stupid, the tanking role is important, and they won't take it out of our hands. They've just gone through great pains to make sure that tanking is very fun. They won't ever remove threat control from us completely, because that would turn us into nothing more than DPSers who take damage.

    Yea that might be true and I won't argue the benefit of using Vigilance, but are those 2 players still actually doing their jobs?
    I don't see how they're not still doing their jobs. The DPSer is still DPSing, and I'm still tanking. All that's changed is the DPSer can do their job better because they're not as worried about threat. My job is made easier because I get some free threat from the DPSer, while still maintaining my duties. It's not as if I can slap Vigilance on a raid member and walk away from they keyboard. It's not as if I change anything about how I tank mobs, I just have a bigger buffer to work with.

    Also I still can't see how we will not be balanced around having Vigilance, yes they stated that they won't balance us around it but they also stated that DPSers would catch up to us after Naxx25. Doesn't this turn Vigilance into a flat 10% tps increase for us? Not a stable 10%, since we are not in control of this threat but wouldn't it be a significant huge chunk of our threat? How could we not be balanced around having it?
    I think we'll have to wait and see on this one. I don't think Blizzard wants to go back to the days of raiding while staring at Omen. I believe they still intend for an equally geared, equally skilled tank to have a good threat lead in any given encounter. I don't think the tank will be 65% ahead of the DPSer in second place is all. I think they're shooting more for the situation where if the tank is at 100%, the second place DPSers are hovering around 80-90%, instead of the sub 50% they are now. But this is all just speculation.

    I suppose we may just be at a fundamental disagreement in how the ability works. I really like the threat siphon functionality, you'd prefer to be in full control of your own threat. I think I understand why you don't like it, but it's just not a problem for me. I really don't mind counting on my raid members to do well, that's what raiding is about.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prunetracy View Post
    I really don't mind counting on my raid members to do well, that's what raiding is about.
    Neither do I, but yes I think you nailed it with the "I'd like to be in total control of my threat" part.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevaar View Post
    Neither do I, but yes I think you nailed it with the "I'd like to be in total control of my threat" part.

    Well... you do get to choose who to put it on. :P

  5. #45
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    Threat transfer is a mechanic that exists in several mmos and im glad blizzard jumped on the boat with it (altho its a bit late, considering the changes to tank TPS atm, we will just have to see how TPS vs DPS scaling performs at 80 at higher gear levels)

    In EQ2 i played a Coercer, my basic functions were to keep the mana regen flowing, stack some dots, and DPS my brains out and transfer as much threat to the tank as possible (Coercers had threat transfer spells)

    I loved it and I've always loved the concept of being able transfer threat.

    I only primarily use it as a threat transfer during AoE situations atm tho. The rest of the time it either goes on the OT or on someone with low a HP pool so splash damage doesn't bork them as easily. (Dual stacking Vigilance on the Claw Rage victim of Zul'Jin on the fly ftw)

    Really i think this was implemented to fix the problem of TPS vs DPS before it even started again. Granted it doesn't make sense for the warrior himself to have an ability that transfers someone else's threat to theirs, but if they give it to another class, it doesn't solve the TPS scaling problem with warriors, because there's not a 100% guarantee that that spec/class would be there.

    As far as the whole "Doesn't feel right to have another class increase my threat/not in control of my threat", its a game with dragons, bi-pedal cows that can talk and murlocs. I take everything with a grain of salt.

    If the need for TPS pushing via Vigilance ever became apparent, DPS will learn how to fully maximize it for everyones potential, or blizzard will tweak warrior TPS scaling. Until then, enjoy your no CD taunts, Damage Reduction and bonus AoE threat.

  6. #46
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    Was it that long ago that people are forgetting that raids were basically reliant on blessing of salvation? "Okay there is no pally in the raid so everyone watch your threat, no salvation." They got rid of salvation and most mechanics similar to that and upped our threat to an extend but are giving us a heads up that it won't always be this easy to hold threat and here is a tool to help you with that.

    I do not understand the not doing your job because of a buff I can cast. It does not change how I play or act, just makes a little larger buffer, helps out some other raid member, and you can play it reactive or proactive. I like to slap it on the next dpser on the threat list just to see what happens, or if I am trying to pick up an add, throw it on the target of the add, there are many uses for it to add a little bit of help, it is not going to automatically taunt the mob to me, or make the person live, or let me hit one button to successfully tank a boss without losing aggro.

    I am not going to tell someone to use it or not use it, that is your choice, I just don't see the belief system that it is morally wrong to have a buff that generates threat for one person that is suppose to have threat and take it away from one person that is not. It is a raid, which is a team event and takes teamwork and working together, so why is it wrong to do something for the team in the name of "I can hold threat without any help!" If you can more power to you, for the smaller guilds without super geared members that want to progress and see more stuff, it is a great tool.

  7. #47
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    My primary concern with Vigilance is that I think it's too good. Other tanks have no equivalent.

    Think about it: your individual threat is being raised, and your top DPSer is getting his threat cap raised by 20%. With 2 warrior tanks on a mutli-tank encounter, you can raise the threat cap on 2 of your top DPSers.

    With two warrior tanks on one boss, double vigilance = less damage, and taunt up nearly 100% of the time. On a tauntable boss, the possibilities here are limitless.

    As long as your DPS is capable of pulling threat if they try, vigilance is a buff without equal. The same applies if the boss is capable of being taunted.

  8. #48
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    Then there is still an issue if your top dpsers (considering that it is a run with equal or close to equal geared members) are putting out more threat than a warrior tank, then warriors are not putting out enough threat to begin with, or they are and all the buff is really doing is helping warriors to aoe tank and/or lower damage done to some raid member by 3%. My only real concern about vigilance is that if it is not as useful for threat as the game sits now, what is ahead of us that will require the increased threat from a warrior tank.

    I have not had a chance to see a druid tank as of lately, but I now the pally tanks threat has been increased by a lot. Pallies also have hand of salvation which is not a siphon but it does lower the threat of a target by a good amount, not the same but something.

  9. #49
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    My primary concern with Vigilance is that I think it's too good. Other tanks have no equivalent.
    It definatly is too good, but of course only on a single target basis. There are only 3 threat transfers that i know of, Vigilance, MD, and Tricks of the Trade. Tricks of the Trade will probably end up being on CD constantly for any tank, as 6 seconds of the Rogue's threat every 30 is pretty nuts. That on top of vigilance on a high TPSer makes for fun times.

    As for no other tanks having an equiv, thats definatly true. But with JoL acting as a threat syphon to the paladin and ferals retarded AP they are pushing, they both have their little tricks to help stay ahead, and will most likely have a higher threat ceiling than us, much like BC. DKs i cant comment on, but from what i understand their DPS/TPS while tanking is pretty respectable atm.

    I do forsee a general scaling issue tho with warriors, which is where i think vigilance will come in play. You can only slap on so much str/bv/exp/hit per tier level of itemization without completely overpowering a tank, and thats where the threat transfer will come into play. Granted our abilities do scale soooo much better post 3.0 than they did before, but we will get to the point when the good dpsers are creeping up on us.

    Only time will tell tho. I'm happy we have it personally.

  10. #50
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    Why you should take it or not... I won't argue that point. I will state that as a TG Warrior I LOVE this talent as it helps to offset both the increased damage from Berserker stance AND the lack of an aggro dump like FD or Feint. I know that Berserker gives out 10% less already, but 20 > 10.

  11. #51
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    I see the major benifit to this being the MT-OT senario in a ten man. Using ZA as an example when we would do this run as a guild our MT would pull each pack of mobs onto himself then the OT would taunt them off one by one. And it would be a constant pull to each boss. So, from that standpoint it would reduce the damage on the MT and allow for an easier hand-off to the OT for Mobs. Or you could just have both MT and OT put it one each other and take turns taunting the mob back and forth to play with the healers.
    Last edited by Nektarious; 11-03-2008 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Spelling
    Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

  12. #52
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    I've been trying my best not to spend a point on this talent, though after reading about different scenarios where it would be a useful talent I respec'd into it last night before we ran Kara.

    I used it twice: Illhoof and Nightbane, on the lock while he was AoEing seeds... Made the adds easy to keep aggro with TC and SW thrown in. Its definitely an addition to the AOE tanking tool box.

    Haven't been in the MT/OT scenario yet, we'll see how that goes at some point I guess. For now, it will stay in my spec.

  13. #53
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    Blizz has said, specifically, that the "lolAOEtank, AOEburn" that we are doing atm will not work at 80 in most raids as the tank will be incurring more damage than can be healed through. You must remember; things feel OP right now because they are. Our new skills/talents were designed with level in mind. That is why basically everyone does more damage, generates more threat, heals more, etc etc.

    To the OP: don't underestimate Vigilance. Its a very useful talent, especially when you can cross-apply it to other tanks, and especially where you have to fight with other tanks for threat (Bloodboil, Void Reaver, etc etc). My raid group makes sure all warrior tanks have it up at all times.. we have a beartank who does just insane TPS, more than I've ever seen a druid do. Guess who mine goes on? ~_^
    Waffles: the other, other white meat.

  14. #54
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    Besides.. we have a magic "My threat is now as high as yours!" button in the form of Taunt every 8 seconds.. I mean, that's way more of a 'copout' than Vigilance is. Why would some 20 foot tall demon from Outlands who can smack a mage for 25k damage care about being taunted by me? Oh yeah.. because its a mechanic designed to keep people alive.

    Vigilance is ultimately the same thing, aside from the differing functionality. You can't apply this kind of logic to a game in which underground trams, flying eagle-lions, swords, guns, murlocks, magic, aliens (yes, Draenei are in fact aliens) and 21st century pop-culture references all co-exist. Like the other guy said.. take it with a grain of salt and enjoy it. Its MEANT to be silly and absurd. The fact that the game takes itself so.. completely non-seriously is a huge part of the appeal of WoW.

    Enjoy the fact we have these new tools to make tanking less stressful. Because by comparison, to pre-3.0.2, warrior tanking was an absolute CHORE aside from bosses or groups with tons of CC.
    Waffles: the other, other white meat.

  15. #55
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    On Brutallus we use 2 tanks like most people probably do, and we had vigilance cast on each other. It worked rather well 3% damage reduction is equal to a lot more armor, and it is magic damage reduction to. Afterwards I think we agreed to keep vigilance on eachother all the time. IMO vigilance will turn into the buff that warrior tanks will share with other tanks at all times I don't see it being cast much on other raid members, and I have no problem sharing with my fellow tanks.

  16. #56
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    Putting Vigilance on the Pally tank while he tanked mobs up front in Mount Hyjal whilst I was helping spam taunt pulling the gargoyle mobs in the rear with my nearly-always-available Taunt was fun; same with the Infernals! Taunt this one, Charge that one, Intervene the next, ranged taunt the next, etc. The massive pally threat was also a good boost in helping to keep these mobs on me. Trying to think of more ways to use this lovely 1 point wonder.
    Last edited by Antioch; 11-05-2008 at 03:07 AM.

  17. #57
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    Why in the world would you click off Misdirect??

  18. #58
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    Because he likes the dps standing around waiting for him to get more agro. Poor hunter must think he is a bad tank. "Wow, I'm already at his threat level and I even casted misdirect on him."

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joanadark View Post
    is this true? If so, its a SPECTACULAR mistake. Particularly later in gear scaling because DPS threat scales MUCH quicker than tank threat.
    Yes it's true and tank threat scales a lot better now.

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