The simplest way to explain this: There is zero plate tanking gear that doesn't have DPS stats itemized. Every single piece of plate tanking gear in Wrath has Strength. Our tanking sets are DPS sets.
The recent trend around here seems to be emphasizing the DPS capabilities of all the tanks with the changes for Wrath. Many of the more respected posters have talked about maximizing tank dps and I'm worried that in their excitement if they aren't going to mislead people.
I pretty sure that when thre is talk about maximizing DPS that what is meant is "once all the other factors of the fight are taken care of, that is you've done your 'job' as the tank, then get more DPS" and this is something that I can stand behind completely. My worry is that anyone coming into these boards at all confused isn't going to realize the restrictions on maximizing DPS and is going to hurt themselves and their raid.
Pre 3.0 I kept (among others) a survival set and a threat set. My threat set was mostly for trash and my survival set was mostly for bosses. The logic for most bosses being that the time I could shave off the fight with a higher threat ceiling wasn't valuable, because I was too likely to die without maximum survivability. There were fights however when a higher threat ceiling was manditory and I had to forgo my mitigation to get the fight over quicker. Figuring out this tradeoff was one of the skills required to be a good tank.
Jump to 3.0. My survival set puts puts out so much TPS that hardly any DPS are ever threat capped. The only times this isn't true are usually on bosses that aren't feeding me enough rage with my ramped up avoidance. My threat set has become my "dps" set if you will, allowing for some decent dps while I tank.
Heres the problem: My dps set is a gimmick. I wear it on fights where there is no chance I will die so that I can have fun. The 200-500 more dps I could put out in a dps set is completely insignicant to our total raid dps and wont decrease the kill time by significant amount. I'm not threat capping my dps in my survival set; the only difference is just the little more dps that I'm putting out personally. Any fight with any chance of somthing bad happening I should be in my survival set; because I'm better equipped to handle problems as a tank wearing that than wearing a threat/dps set. Healer dies early, I take a hard spike, we get adds, or any other sort of problem, we're much more likely to not wipe if I'm wearing gear that prevents the most damage. Even on trash, I pull faster wearing my survival gear because my healers have to drink that much less.
Heres my worry: Hearing all this talk about DPS, tanks are going to start focusing on gearing for DPS in Wrath and sacrifice mitigation and health to get it. I haven't seen any arguements where this would be ideal on any non-farming content; as long as DPS isn't threat capped the gain in tank dps isn't worth giving up any amount of mitigation/avoidance/health. The extra dps will literally gain you only seconds off your boss kill time while the loss of survivability is that much more chance of a wipe. Heck, losing 1 dps because a healer was bombing the tank and didn't have time to raid heal would swing equation toward the survival tank. Basically the only situation where the dps tank wins if if the encounter goes perfectly. Not somthing to be gearing for, if it goes perfectly you'll win anyway.
The simplest way to explain this: There is zero plate tanking gear that doesn't have DPS stats itemized. Every single piece of plate tanking gear in Wrath has Strength. Our tanking sets are DPS sets.
also keep in mind that our current gear is imbalanced for our classes. we've been re-tooled to make sense at 80. It seems to me like your worry is that Prot warriors will start trying to tank in Fury warrior sets, I don't see that happening.
Tank that does no research: der der der face roll shield slam boss dead oh hey its purple and has +def on it, i'm a tank, NEED drool
Tank that does way too much research will weigh the pro's and con's of each individual stat and carry around a mitigation set and a dps set.
Don't see that changing.
The point I'm trying to make is that our baseline gear and abilities are making up all the threat and DPS we could possibly need. It seems like there is even less choice for gearing in Wrath; every optional piece of gear should be spent increasing survivalbility because its the only stat we need anymore. We've got TPS in spades and our DPS is marginalized in raids and nearly so in 5 mans.
In BC there are very clear reasons to have 2 sets. There are fights that threat capping the DPS too much and increasing the fight time will likely cause a wipe; whereas the boss isn't hitting very hard and threat gear isn't a liability. It was the *threat* that made the gear switch important, not personal dps. We make tons of threat in our standard mitigation set now, so why would you ever switch gear in a non-trivial encounter?
Last edited by Gwyndolin; 10-29-2008 at 07:07 AM.
You'll still be socketing like you did in TBC, maybe with even higher emphasis on stamina due to dimishing returns on avoidance. Gear itself has plenty of strenght on it and socketing for +str is far more inefficient than having couple pieces of TPS gear you can swap in if necessary.
Not much has changed in respect to hard hitting boss gear versus threat/dps gear other than most all gear having STR now. What has changed is threat is much easier to generate, so the skill of a tank isn't as much how much threat he generates (once you generate enough, the rest is nothing), but the ability to squeeze out as much DPS as possible via your tanking rotation. The push for DPS has very little to do with gear.
You could possibly worry about gemming/enchants if you want, I guess, but the majority of the tank gear you get will be providing the survivability you need before you even really consider gems (or possibly just under that). Socking some for threat/dps isn't necessarily as big of an issue.
Most of the threads here, when referencing "pushing DPS" are more about ability rotations. I think I remember 1 or 2 threads that were discussed with respect to gear.
DPS will be a tank responsibility for some progression fights, but most of that will come with ability rotations and has less to do with gear aside from what tanking gear normally gives.
Non-standard tanking situations need to be very clearly labeled as such to avoid confusion. I think Passively Uncrushable is a great example of this from BC. Being Passively Uncrushable is mostly a gimmick, there are a few situations where its useful and many of the better theorycrafters liked to play with it just because it was something to play with. But in any thread about it that showed up on Theoryspot there was always a huge disclaimer "If you dont fully understand why and where we are doing this, then you should not be doing this."
I think that there is atleast a case to be made that "DPS tanking" might need to be treated the same way. "Do not replace your Stam gems with Str ones unless you are aware of the minimal survival stats for the fights you are tanking and your healers are bored."
All bosses and raid compositions will require the following:
-A set amount of raid-dps to kill
-A set amount of raid-h(heals)ps to kill
Fufill those criteria while the tank remains upright is mostly a win (with positions etc. assumed to be learned)
You have heavy control over
- the hps you require and the easability of healing you (1)
- the damage you do
- the threat you do, removing the threat cap from the rest of the DPS. (2)
1 - By far the most important, tank dies and the fight is over.
2- Necessary for your DPSers to meet their goals.
I plan to adjust my tanking set for the content. That is, trash & easy 5 mans swapping in threat/dps sets. Survivability sets for everything else. I see myself gemming for stamina and relying on weapon/shield selection and permanently itemized items (all plate with str) to be the dps I provide.
I think part of the issue with understanding your concern is you say you understand that we say it has little to do with gear, but 90+% of your OP and even a good portion of your followups indicate you are worried we are leading people to gear for DPS over survivability.
Maybe you could post up some examples of misleading information? I don't recall any TS provided info like that. Sure, some posters could have made comments about it (none come to mind off hand), but you can't really control what comments people make as easily and this is a discussion forum, so you can't really curb that without changing the forum's goals.
Also, to some extent, any forum can't really hold people's hands too much. There comes some expectation that the person reading a thread reads the whole thing and even that the person is willing to do some research on their own. Trying to caveat every single statement we make with every possible exception would make things very unreadable. Perhaps there are certain places where we can be more clear? Any examples per chance so we can understand your concern better? Making a general statement about it makes it difficult to tackle the problem if there is one.
If regeming your gear entirely leaves you with plenty of survivability then the content you are tanking is trivial to your guild. You never have enough survivability until you are rage starving yourself. Being easier to keep alive (as long as you aren't threat capping DPS) increases the speed and success of your raid better than any amount of gearing for DPS.
Damage Is A Tanking ResponsibilityThis is from a News post of the same name. I don't think Ciders wrong. I think that this is very much like talking about Passive Uncrushabililty and it will be very easy to confuse people about tanking. Seeing the stance that these forums have had about talking about Passive Uncrushability in the past, I think that if my concerns are valid that its something many people will want to put some thought into.Damage and mobility is what will set you apart as an outstanding tank.
I think this is where we aren't agreeing. I understand that you aren't talking about gear because I read nearly every thread that pops on on here or EJ about gearing and tanking strategies. But you hardly ever actually say that you arent talking about gearing.I think part of the issue with understanding your concern is you say you understand that we say it has little to do with gear, but 90+% of your OP and even a good portion of your followups indicate you are worried we are leading people to gear for DPS over survivability.
The reason I think this misunderstanding is cropping up is partly from having read a ton of replies to things, which makes it hard to go back and find specific examples. But partly from the response I've gotten in this thread. Most of the replies have said something to the effect of "Have both" when with the Wrath changes having a threat set seems to be obsolete. Keep your survival set on and dont drink as often, pull more mobs, have a healer dps for trash, etc etc. Putting on a threat set now is really only increasing personal DPS, and thats so marginal that there are many ways to increase raid performance while maintaing the safety cushion of having on your best tanking gear.
I pretty much assume every tank is going to understand that survivability is most important. I haven't seen any of what you're talking about (players assuming that since we keep talking about tank DPS, it's most important).
Also bear in mind much of what we're writing these days is targetted at experienced tanks who are adapting to 3.0, simply because there's a lot more of them at the moment.
A dead tank does no DPS?
to Lore's point, BC content post 3.0 is an anomaly. It may indicate somethings in terms of general direction but for the most part, unless you were gear appropriate for Nightbane now taking on Illidan, almost everyone is overgeared for the content. Combined with the fact that re-itemization is like a liquid overhaul (IE, painting an old car or piece of machinery to make it appear to be in better shape) and very piecemeal, it stands to reason many things that are true now may not be at level 80.
Tanks adapt. that's the one thing we do. If we cannot survive a boss encounter, well, I guess that +STR red gem was not as good as a + STA blue gem after all. Fix it. I think that as we get closer to pushing raid content as an overall community (some will be there very fast, some will screw around a while) we'll have a more unified and concise message.
Keep in mind also, so much of this depends heavily on not only tanking classes getting 'right' but everyone else including healers. 'Can I survive' depends on how much damage is coming in, how much is mitigated/avoided and how well your healers can cope as well as how fast your DPS takes the boss down and a number of other little things.
The numbers are there. Satrina in particular has a great write up on threat values. but until we know how all the classes balance together, its hard to say much further.
And at the end of the day, realize this: All of the major contributors to Tankspot are players and they put thier pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else. I personally like a little mystery and challenge, things I need to figure out on my own and can feedback to the community (and someone else can quantify, lol) and find what works for me. I like to experiment, I'm not particularly interested in a cliffnotes version of "how to tank"
I just thought of this: My wife plays a holy priest. She's pretty good and I trust her to keep me alive. My friend Craig is a guild GM and also plays a holy priest. He is the best player I have ever played with. He is a freak of nature who routinely does things that I would think impossible. I'm sure you all know people like my wife, a good, solid healer and then there are people like Craig who just....play a different game. In a 10 man Naxx, do you do swap out that dodge trinket for BV, AP, or STR depending on who's healing? Or do you swing for the fences and go all out DPS with the weaker healer, hoping to tear the boss down 20 seconds sooner? Sooooooo many little nuances to sort out.
your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)
In response to Horacio: There are many players who come to a site like this, read the stickies, check what Cider or Lore has posted lately and go off to set themselves up. It's not ideal but I respect the fact that they did *something* to make themselves a better tank and want to make sure they're at least benefiting from their effort. That was all.
As to your hypothetical about whether to wear DPS gear or not. Assuming your 5 dps average 2000dps and you gain 200dps from putting on your dps gear, over a 3 min fight you'll kill the boss 3.6 seconds faster. Leave your survival gear on ^_^
Last edited by Gwyndolin; 10-29-2008 at 01:42 PM.
Personally, I think it is all about balance. I have a target amount of Health, avoidance, mitigation, threat, and now dps that I try to achieve. After that, it comes down to personal preference. I wouldn't consider DPS a priority, but I think it is important and shouldn't be ignored.
Late coming to this post.
I think I can see what you are getting at Gywndolin and you are right.
The posts I have seen, being a newish tank, have been making me think I should be switching in some more DPS items at time.
However, this post has had me re-think this.
How much more DPS could I really put out and will this "really" help the raid.
Most trash encounters may seem trivial but they still contain risks. A tank death amplifies the risk to the other classes greatly. So basically our job is still to survive first DPS later.
I think the idea of improving our rotations for great DPS is the one that should be highlighed and shouted from the tops of towers. Not changing gear to do so.
Im not sure its entirely different to pre patch, when id wear enough gear to survive then go for some threat gear like shard of contempt, which also helped survivability with less parries.
Since the patch we are in a very similar situation, make sure you live first, then take dps/ threat gear only difference is threat is less of an issue. Fully raid buffed i find myself around 20k health, do i put in another stam gem or the +5str/+7stam and pick up the 3 dodge bonus?
Like the shard of contempt our +str not only gives us dps/threat but increases survivability, by how much exactly im not entirely sure but im confident im already at a level that allows for survivability given our healers are on the ball. But if healers arent on the ball, then it doesnt really matter what im wearing.
Many of us used to take great pride in our theat output as it was to us what dps is to Mage, hunter, warlock ect. As threat is much less of an issue, im expecting more DPS race bosses come WOTLK, which means if all tanks and all DPS can boost their DPS by 100-200 then that could easily be the difference between success and failure.
This is what i think most posters are talking about, we can hold threat and be lazy, or we can hold threat and hit every cooldown and contribute to raid damage. Isolated does that 100dps make a massive difference? Probably not, but if everyone does it? Absolutely. Its just something new we can take pride in other than pure TPS.
Personally i love the new Warrior, as others have said it never felt right being this badass going head to head with a huge beast to only hit like a wet paper bag. We are the frontline, we should be both offensively and defensively skilled, giving very good reason why that mob should find us threatening.
Last edited by Wartank; 10-29-2008 at 07:15 PM.
500 health is a flask; not considered a trivial drop to guilds requiring flasks for non-trivial content. How much DPS are you gaining by sacrificing that health? Even if it were a 500 DPS shift (which is sure as hell isn't going to be) Thats still only seconds off the time to kill the boss.
If your health pool is large enough that you absolutely aren't in danger of being gibbed, you should be stacking avoidance. The only reason for threat gear is that threat capping the DPS is a significant reduction of raid dps; as long as your dps are not threat capped your personal DPS is completely insignificant.
Expertise/SBV(through str) give both threat and mitigation and tend to be good stats, not getting parry strings is beneficial and being able to frontload threat with less miss/dodge/parry is nice. If you're stacking these stats simply for threat however; I've yet to see a reason in Wrath why this is important. There are very demostratable reasons how more survivability makes encounters easier and faster, I've yet to see any reasons for gearing for dps/threat.
"I want to gear for DPS and we still win" is a valid play choice but at this point I'm having a hard time believing its anything more than a play choice; it isn't min/maxing anymore.
We all agree that you shouldn't forgo survivability for dps gear in most cases (fights like VR being obvious exceptions). The statements you quoted earlier say nothing about gear and are true standalone. I guess it would be important to look at the context of the statements that you think are worrisome. If a reader comes into a thread, sees only those statements and then leaves, then yeah, that is a problem, but it is more a problem with the reader. They should be researching more than that. Again, we have to assume some level of competance/research capability of TS readers. This site does focus on Theorycraft as well as beginner stuff, so you can't spoonfeed everything all the time, placing caveats for every statement or repeating everything each time. What that level it should be is definitely be up for debate though. We could definitely work harder at being more clear. I just think it is not as polar as you make it out to be probably (perhaps simply a difference of opinion).
Personally, I expect that a person coming to the forums to get answers takes the time to browse through the stickies, and if he/she finds a thread that addresses their issue (or makes a thread about it) that they read the whole thread or at least ask questions to clear things up if they are unsure about something. However, that is my personal expectation and isn't necessarily the expectation that the owners of TS have.
Last edited by jere; 10-30-2008 at 05:54 AM.
I looked at the posts about a tank being a dps'er also. I have developed my style of tanking that fits me over time and I am still using an Avoidance/Miti Set and a Threat Set, wearing the Avoidance set only on bosses now and not all of them.
Without even trying, my dps in 5 man heroics has went way up. The first one I ran, a fellow guildy, whom I run with frequently, said "This ain't right, what is wrong with my damage meter?". Someone asked what his problem was, and he said that the I (the tank) was #2 in dps, and that can't be right. I just smiled inside, and thought are they still gonna /gkick ppl that can't outdps the tank.
If i can get a bunch of mobs in front of me and TC,Shockwave my way to respectable dps, more power to tanks, hooray!!
That being said, it is still my responsiblity to stay alive in encounters and know which encounters are going to require me to use my maximum avoidance.
"Resistance is Futile"