# Thread: A Question about Defense: Theorycrafting underway

1. Warrior -- it's like that
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## A Question about Defense: Theorycrafting underway

I am currently undergoing a small theorycrafting project regarding diminishing returns. I have a couple of quick questions that I'm guessing some of the more experienced people might know off-hand:

First: How do I calculate avoidance do to Defense at level 80? I know that at level 70, 1 point of defense skill yields .04% parry, dodge, and miss chance (and crits). I suspect, but am not sure, that this only applies to defense skill gained after maximum defense for levels. For example, if I have 490 defense, only 140 that defense gives avoidance. That makes sense to me because 140 * .04 = 5.6, which is the magic number for crit reduction. Basically, can someone confirm that, at level 80, only defense skill ABOVE 400 adds avoidance worth considering?

Second: Is chance to be missed affected (effected?) by diminishing returns?

2. Space Bear R Best
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Originally Posted by mero12513
First: How do I calculate avoidance do to Defense at level 80? I know that at level 70, 1 point of defense skill yields .04% parry, dodge, and miss chance (and crits). I suspect, but am not sure, that this only applies to defense skill gained after maximum defense for levels. For example, if I have 490 defense, only 140 that defense gives avoidance. That makes sense to me because 140 * .04 = 5.6, which is the magic number for crit reduction. Basically, can someone confirm that, at level 80, only defense skill ABOVE 400 adds avoidance worth considering?
Are you looking for the Defense article?

IFF your Defense is lv*5 (400 Defense at lv80), you start off with a base 5% crit/miss/dodge/parry/block (remove the ones your class can't do) against an equal level target. If it's lower, you have less avoidance. If it's higher, you have more.

Additional Defense (beyond the base Defense skill available from levels) shouldn't be any different at lv80; I believe the dim. returns is applied when converting the rating to the actual skill?

3. Warrior -- it's like that
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Originally Posted by phaze
Are you looking for the Defense article?

IFF your Defense is lv*5 (400 Defense at lv80), you start off with a base 5% crit/miss/dodge/parry/block (remove the ones your class can't do) against an equal level target. If it's lower, you have less avoidance. If it's higher, you have more.

Additional Defense (beyond the base Defense skill available from levels) shouldn't be any different at lv80; I believe the dim. returns is applied when converting the rating to the actual skill?
Yes....I saw Satrina's article, and what I gleaned from it was basically what you said. I'm pretty sure that diminishing returns is calculated on the dodge/parry chance as per http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...avoidance.html. That article doesn't cover avoidance from miss, which is why I ask here. I'll assume that my assumptions are correct for now, and if my theory data doesn't match
what we see, I'll reconsider. Thanks for the help.

4. We just restarted the servers to fix an issue with the diminishing returns formula we added for Dodge, Parry, and the enemy's chance to miss you. The issue fixed was that the formula now works! This will have a definite effect on all tanks ability to mitigate damage due to effectively lowered amounts of those avoidance values.

We'd love to see combat logs from our more melee intensive raid fights after this change.
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Avoidance change

5. Sponsor
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Originally Posted by mero12513
First: How do I calculate avoidance do to Defense at level 80? I know that at level 70, 1 point of defense skill yields .04% parry, dodge, and miss chance (and crits).
Second: Is chance to be missed affected (effected?) by diminishing returns?
Firstly, 1 point of Defense Skill always gives .04% Dodge, Parry, Miss regardless of level. What changes is the amount of Defense Rating required to get 1 point of Defense Skill.

Secondly, I'm trying not to worry about the phrase "diminishing returns" too much. With the change, increases in Avoidance will change our survivability linearly, instead of exponetially like they used to. Think of it the same way diminishing returns on Armor work. Increasing your armor from 20k -> 21k might only provide something like .5% damage reduction, but you will still be able to live 5% longer than you would have beforehand.

6. It's still 0.04 per point of defense skill - the change is 4.92 rating per 1 skill at 80 vs. 2.37 at 70. I use defense in the examples here: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...avoidance.html

7. Established Registrant
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OK, after reading this, I think the point is:

1) You still want enough defense rating to get to 540 defense at 80.

2) diminishing returns applies to all the skills supplied by defense except one. If I understand it right, you'll still get 5.6% to not be crit, as that is not subject to DR, since it's not 'avoidance'

3) block is not subject to DR

3) everything else (dodge/parry/miss) will be subject to diminishing returns when converted to skill

Comments?

Edit: fixed block
Last edited by mavfin; 10-21-2008 at 08:29 PM.

8. I don't think block is subject to DR.

9. Block is not currently subject to DR

10. Dodge chance from Agility, Dodge Rating, and Defense Rating
Parry chance from Parry Rating, and Defense Rating
Miss chance from Defense Rating

All of these are subject to diminishing returns. As someone pointed out, it's like the way armor worked before.

If you have enough armor to reduce your incoming physical damage by 50%, and you double your armor, you don't get 100% damage reduction. DR is a formula the game uses so that you can stack more of a given stat (which has been calculated of course ot be a linear increase in survivability) and gain a respectively linear increase in tanking fortitude.

Now they're fixing it so that avoidance has the same corresponding value and you cannot simply stack heavy avoidance to get better results (which was now feasible thanks to adjusted tanking talents for rage/mana, lack of crushing blows, and the new avoidance buffs from talents and class skills).

The formula is a little ugly for simple intuitive stat valuation, but the take home message, until someone demonstrates to the contrary, is that each point of avoidance rating should be as good as the last, though you'll see your % avoidance increase in smaller increments for each additional chunk of rating you add.

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Okay. So I'm pretty sure I'm at the point where 1 def rating is better than 1 dodge rating. My question is, what is the point that defense becomes better then dodge. Or is it better all the time now?

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