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Thread: Threat being a non issue....do you like?

  1. #121
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    The change to make threat a non-issue is in my opinion one of the greatest changes blizzard has done for tanks. Finding a tank to do a heroic dungeon went from very annoying from playing a guessing game with how good a random pug tank was, to having to beg a guild tank to come since it was not enjoyable for him. Also from a tank point of view, it has made heroics a blast instead of a chore. Bliz said they wanted more tanks in the game, and now they will have them.

    Also for people that want to be the "best" tank, guess what there is a easy way to complete with other tanks in a way that is easier to measure, damage done. Yes now dps will demonstrate if a tank is pushing his class as far as possible.

    Keep in mind that for future bosses Blizzard is well aware of our threat so a threat fight will not be a key part of a boss. This allows for more cleaver boss fights, since now they can keep a high dps check and keep tanks moving for one reason or another. The skill of a tank in high end areas will always be tested.

  2. #122
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    As others have said, the problem with being able to run in and hold aggro on multiple mobs isn't the problem itself, it's that there are very few mobs at this point which are 'dangerous'.

    Looking back at 60, had we possessed our current AE tanking ability (forget for a moment our Demo shout threat), do you think we could have AOE pulled numerous axe throwers in ZG? Even at 70, they're a pain because they effectivley CC every player in a radius. They're dangerous not just because of the damage they put out but because of what they do to the raid as a whole.

    At 70 there were mobs which hit hard but weren't a particular nuisance as you started to outgear them because they simply didn't have the abilities with which to inconvenience the player. The closest example of a nuisance mob that you HAD to CC at least while learning and not geared for the content were probably Flame Casters in ZA. The massive amounts of AOE damage they could put out meant that if you were attempting a timed run pre-3.0, you had to either CC them or focus fire them down quickly or else your healers would go out of mana trying to keep everybody up thus preventing your timed run from pushing the edge.

    And this comes back to the problem of a lot of 70 content being nerfed while we have been buffed. Everything seems to be greatly inflated out of proportion. I personally didn't have the privelage of being invited to the beta, but I see no problem if at 80 we can still hold AOE threat as decently as we do at this point.

    It lies on Blizzard to design the encounters in such a way that at least every few pulls there is just one mob where a CC of some sort is beneficial to learning the encounter until you outgear it. Having been a warlock pre-TBC, that idea stings somewhat in that certain DPS classes become favoured over others for CC but there is a necessity for people to have a limit to how much they can do at a certain level.

    As has been pointed out, this may not be the case in the first few entry raids and heroics as they are precisely that, Karazhans of 80. They aren't meant to be amazingly challenging, they're meant as an introduction to raiding at the 80 level. From what I've seen, they're almost designed for the purpose of anybody who is relativley new to the game to be able to walk in and at least kill a boss or two and get a taste for raiding.

    But the above two paragraphs are slightly off-tangent to the topic itself but relavant to some of the arguments here .

    Yes, threat is a non-issue, but looking at this from an ability stand-point, what have I actually -lost- from pre-3.0?

    Shield Block spam... (No love lost)

    But what have I gained?

    Sword and board procs, Glyph of Revenge procs, Shockwave, Concussion Blow as a valuable of a rotation, lower cooldowns on last stand/shield wall allowing more frequent use of them, Warbringer charges in combat, a more dynamic shield block, the ability to try and revenge stun more dangerous mobs while in combat/shield bash silence (talents you would never pick up for raid tanking pre-3.0).

    Has it really been dumbed down? How many tanks do you know, let alone DPS, who could handle the sheer amount of reflexive thinking needed to make the best use of these abilities on the fly? Tanking five mobs at once, concussion blowing the hardest hitting one, charging to a ranged mob, silencing their next cast, tabbing a revenge and hoping for a revenge stun proc (and a free heroic strike glyphed!) and now being safely out of range of the hard hitter for a good few extra seconds.

    The paradigm has shifted from having to stress about threat to doing the most you can with your toolset and that's what will essentially define a good tank, as I think Xav has summarised quite well in some of his examples. From talking to some of the people I play with regularly, they've said my tanking has changed from being good to being acrobatic and healers in specific have noted they can see I'm taking less damage than equivalently geared warriors because of how I use my new tools.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturday View Post
    Has it really been dumbed down? How many tanks do you know, let alone DPS, who could handle the sheer amount of reflexive thinking needed to make the best use of these abilities on the fly? Tanking five mobs at once, concussion blowing the hardest hitting one, charging to a ranged mob, silencing their next cast, tabbing a revenge and hoping for a revenge stun proc (and a free heroic strike glyphed!) and now being safely out of range of the hard hitter for a good few extra seconds.
    I feel that I'm in for an extra shock when we actually hit WotLK. Currently, my warrior is an alt, soon to become my new main in the new xpac. As an alt, I'm limited to fights and encounters that I greatly overgear (thanks to badge gear and such). Tanking 7 mobs in a heroic? No problem, I don't need to do anything fancy to stay alive. Cutting edge content where my mettle is tested is non-existent. Quite tempted to remove or downgrade my tanking set just to bring home the neccessity of pushing myself to make good use of these new abilities, but I doubt my groupmembers would actually appreciate that. ><

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturday View Post
    From talking to some of the people I play with regularly, they've said my tanking has changed from being good to being acrobatic and healers in specific have noted they can see I'm taking less damage than equivalently geared warriors because of how I use my new tools.
    This is a very good quote, and helps describe the new tanking style possibilities quite well.
    Xav
    Formerly Xavastrasz
    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnuss View Post
    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  5. #125
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    I believe that people dismayed over the changes to how our threat is accumulated (as well as how much we can accrue now) are entitled to their opinion. However, I'm fairly certain they are in the minority.

    I played a Tankadin on the Horde side for Stormscale for most of TBC and the guild (sadly the only real raiding guild on the entire server, much less faction) imploded before it could kill Felmyst due to burn-out and several other issues with the leadership of the guild in general. Tired of three years of the Horde but still wanting to tank, I took up Warrior on Cenarius Alliance.

    I wish that I had rolled a Human off the bat for the slight Expertise boost and Diplomacy, but overall I've loved Warrior since I rolled one. I set myself apart from the common Warrior in that I applied my already extensive knowledge of tanking in raids as a Paladin to that as a Warrior and learned to get around my lacking AoE abilities. Mouseover macros were a boon and the ability to keep track of multiple targets via Tab or just clicking on wasn't really all that difficult, but I realize it's still something that sets you apart from the common player.

    However, with that extra work involved to just "maintain" packs of mobs, as well as your place in single target threat, came a sort of mental exhaustion. My housemates didn't understand that in raids just how much more draining it is as a tank than as a healer or a DPS; there's just so much go on that you are responsible for that they can't see. It was micromanagement of the worst kind and as a tank it really took away from the fact that this is a game.

    Yes, you might say that one could faceroll the keyboard and tank on a Warrior now to some degree and that would be correct. However, that doesn't mean that type of player is a tank.

    3.0.2 essentially lessened a few of our burdens and release the stranglehold it had on us as tanks. We have flexibility now we didn't before, new *useful* abilities we didn't before, and a collective sigh of relief as running content you outgear doesn't mean you need to run with no-gear -- not to mention it isn't painful anymore.

  6. #126
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    Right on, Viertel! Micromanagement was and is the hallmark of the tanking role, and it was unfair before that we never got a rest from it. When we're learning new content, of course there'll be rigorous target marking, CCing and careful assist chaining, and those moments will remain as difficult for us as they are for the other classes. BUT, and this is the beauty of things, when we're running old hat content and everyone else is jibbering on vent we can be in on the fun instead of being the miserable old bastards who are yelling at people for not paying attention on trash.

  7. #127
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    /agree

    Here is my two cents.

    I agree with Xav, and the majority of you as well, that the game is basically better overall now in every way. DPS/New talents=more fun (and that's a majority vote it sounds like). :P

    I was getting burnt out myself on tanking the "old" way, as my guild had gotten as far as Bloodboil/RoS pre-3.0 and, like you all pointed out, that was about when DPS TPS started to really push me into a tight spot at times and some began to hold back. Prot tanking was getting frustrating and not worth my time before 3.0, now it is awesome again.

    I am very glad that my guild never got into SW pre-3.0, and I feel very sorry for those of you that had to "red up" with any dodge gems and/or try to maintain enough TPS to not have drama, because that sounds like a goddamn nightmare. Now that it is "fixed", I look forward to raiding SW and finishing TBC.

    Some have talked about there still being a seperation with one's "Boss Set(EH/avoidance based)" and their "Everything Else/Dps Set". I am unsure as to what amount of avoidance for bosses is even needed anymore and if this is entirely a problem to tank Archimonde now with your "SbV/Strength/Dps tanking Set", since bosses/mobs got the Nerf Bat. I replaced my avoidance gems with strength and hit, and enchanted gloves and shoulders for dps as well. This is much more fun then the old way of being a meatshield where I poke the mobs with a wooden spork for their attention. My threat is constantly at around 2.5-3.3K TPS. My Overall Damage Done is huge, I came in number 11 on meters in a 25 man raid thru SSC where the top 8 dps had between 1.5-2k DPS.

    Also, with Wotlk coming soon, why bother going the "main tank" spec when something that uses 5/5 cruelty and 0/5 Anticipaton is going to help you level faster in about 15 days now. I am going to tank Archimonde in my new DPS/SbV/Strength Tank set at 16k unbuffed HP and see how it goes, I will let you all know. We shall see.
    Last edited by Rootkitworm; 10-22-2008 at 11:57 AM.
    There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. -Hunter Thompson

  8. #128
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    I suppose you guys are right then. And just like the poster above stated, it IS actually cool being a damage dealer now in a sense, Pre-3.0 I thought of myself as a front-line fighter holding off the opposition, but yea aka Meatshield, now this idea really comes to life with our actually Single Target DPS being decent. And I literally yell "Shockwave!" over vent whenever I use it.

    A few questions though, anyone have any way of getting SnB to flash on your screen or something like Revenge does?
    I use Xperls and Dominos but neither seem to give me such an option.

    And I'm seriously starting to wonder whether or not I wanna level as Arms again, people say DW Fury is better but a lack of hit rating while leveling is common and I hate consecutive misses. At the same time now Prot is actually a viable leveling spec, sure you'll tear to mobs a tad slower, but you also wont run into those annoying common problems that many DPS Warriors have, like soloing elites and taking on 4+ mobs without and serious cooldowns.

  9. #129
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    So now that all tanks are pretty much created equal. How are warriors supposed to compete with paladins when the mobs are undead/demon?

    I've been MTing Hyjal and BT lately and i've never had trouble holding aggro from anybody until the patch 3.0. The prot paladin is able to gain on me in terms of threat vs demon/undead bosses and he wasnt able to before. So is this just a 70 thing and will be fixed at 80? or will paladins always have the upper hand when fighting a demon/undead??

    Kinda makes me think about naxx since most of the stuff in there is undead/demon.
    Last edited by Densel; 10-23-2008 at 02:33 PM.

  10. #130
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    Well, as long as you are both way ahead of the DPS, it's irrelevant. If you're both 100% over the DPS, it doesn't matter if he has more. The DPS isn't using it, after all. Frankly, that'll be one of the pally niches, I'd guess.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    A few questions though, anyone have any way of getting SnB to flash on your screen or something like Revenge does?
    I use Xperls and Dominos but neither seem to give me such an option.
    Mik's Scrolling Battle Text has this functionality out of the box, I haven't checked SCT. You can also configure Power Auras Classic : WoWInterface Downloads : Buff/Debuff/Spell Mods to display a symbol on your screen whenever you gain an aura like S&B.

    Coming to think about it, I wonder if some of the problems with 'new' tanking isn't directly related to there being no "easy" way of reacting to all the procs, as the plain interface doesn't give you enough clear notice of them. You can activate the in-game SCT but it doesn't highlight certain events well enough to be consistently aware of every detail with a glance.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    A few questions though, anyone have any way of getting SnB to flash on your screen or something like Revenge does?
    I use Xperls and Dominos but neither seem to give me such an option.
    I use Power Auras. A golden colored shield icon is set off to the left of me for Sword and Board, and I have crossed swords (I think I set it to random color) for when the Revenge glyph procs. I also have it set to a small, thin aura/shield around me for when Battle Shout (redish) or Commanding Shout (greenish) is on me depending on who's in the group. I prefer using those to trying to read flying text across the screen. You can even have it set to show Sunder effects on the mob, Thunderclap debuff (though that's easy enough to see by default), Demo shout, and pretty much any debuff you can think of as a visual indicator instead of trying to sort through all 40 debuff slots to double check.

    It's a really versatile mod that can be used for all classes. I gotta say it's a stellar way to show combo points on a Rogue or Maelstrom weapon procs on a Shaman. In the case of the MW procs, you can even have it show a small countdown timer around the effect you choose for example to let you know exactly when it expires without needing to look at a buff bar.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloinir View Post
    Lore, I'm in complete agreement with this, but think about what I'm saying.

    These days, our dps is JUST AS important as the other guys', just like you're saying.

    The point is, our tps used to be much MORE important.
    We haven't lost the TPS, it is just less difficult to get, so we haven't LOST anything, we have infact gained much more.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturday View Post
    Mik's Scrolling Battle Text has this functionality out of the box, I haven't checked SCT. You can also configure Power Auras Classic : WoWInterface Downloads : Buff/Debuff/Spell Mods to display a symbol on your screen whenever you gain an aura like S&B.

    Coming to think about it, I wonder if some of the problems with 'new' tanking isn't directly related to there being no "easy" way of reacting to all the procs, as the plain interface doesn't give you enough clear notice of them. You can activate the in-game SCT but it doesn't highlight certain events well enough to be consistently aware of every detail with a glance.
    SCT does the same.

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