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Thread: Threat being a non issue....do you like?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    Felmyst: Tanking both Felmyst and all of the Skeleton adds. Involves liberal use of of basic rotation abilities, Thunderclaps at the right time to hit the most amount of mobs while they're still "spawning" from the gas, and Warbringer charges to get to the other area. I already enjoyed doing this prior to 3.0, and rounding them up for our paladin, now I can do it all myself.
    Not to mention the exceptional feats you can pull off by bouncing vigilance around to give you infinite taunts (which now that they have an unnecessary 20 yd range usually requires more than a quick tab to find the right target), intervene-> mocking blow, mouse-over cleaving to get a little extra juice on recently picked up targets, and a million other old and new tricks that now serve to make you a beast of an AE tank with less consistent threat but considerably better mobility (and way more taunts) than either of the other 2 currently in game tanking classes. Felmyst is ridiculous fun now.

  2. #62
    I'm not in beta so I can't speak to that. I do hope, and this is where it proof of the new game design lies, that encounter/instance design lives up to the potentiality of our new talents. Our guild has been raiding this last week the Echoes of Doom patch. Its insane. We blow through content. We've aggro'ed whole rooms of trash and AoE'd them down. I do try to keep a sliver of discipline to it. I expect that we should be able blow things away with the gear and the level of raiding that we've reached. I do watch and hear though on our server of guilds that couldn't do half of what they've done before now succeeding. And, I do have a worry. I like raiding because you must work as a team. Discipline, execution, and timing made for success. I realize that as we level up, or more, that I hope as we progress those qualities will return to raiding. Right now, I see in general chat nothing but a bunch of "yahoo's" screaming their triumphs. I worry of this also because that's what people will expect and demand of raiding. I don't want it dumbed down.

    As for our new abilities and what we do now, I've told our raiders not to get to cocky. We have level 80 abilities at level 70 and all raid encounters have been nerfed by 30%. Nothing they do now will translate to how raiding will be at level 80. I did tell them though that this is the time to understand and learn their new talents. I encourage them to try new specs and new rotations. I also have talked to our other RL's and am having them learn to adjust to the new raid-wide buffs and see how they play out. I feel as long as the instance/encounter design at 80 presents good challenges, all is well. As for threat, its nice on a burn down boss to be sitting 10-20% above everyone else and not need anyone to wait for me to get threat. Myself, I'm taking this time live to adjust and learn when I want to burn my CD's and when I'll wait. Also, knowing to gear is becoming more important. We as tanks just need to adapt to the new talents. It just takes time that's all.

    Just my two coppers

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparan View Post
    Show me another class that has to make that kind of decision 10-15 times a fight!
    I actually liked how intense it was, pushing out dps is not the same, it fact I escaped playing a dps class because it was boring.

    But if xav is right and threat is still quite a push in wotlk then all is well anyway.

  4. #64
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    そうだ。
    Sou Da..



    IMHO, it's a bit premature to discuss the 'dumbing down' of Tanking, since we have been given the skills/abilities to handle content that hasn't been released yet. It does have the effect of somewhat trivializing current content, but I would opine that Blizz can't really tell what's going to happen in the general population without actually watching the general population at work. It gives us a month to get a feel for the new abilities and how they may be applied, and it gives Blizzard a month to watch their handiwork and make observations like 'Gee, Fury really does need a little loving... Ret needs a little 'adjustment'... The duration of "LolDiscombobulate" is too long. And Geeez!! The active population of Holy Priests just dropped through the floorboards. I guess they really *didn't* like their new talents...,' and make calculated corrections based on something other than spreadsheets and modelling.

    Mostly, we're using version 4 talents and abilities in a version 3 game. I agree it's a bit too easy at the moment. That'll change as Blizzard tune the game, I'm sure.


    Honestly, are you deck'd out in epics running a heroic and saying you aren't overgeared? For the content level you are at, I think you'll find this to be the opposite, and why should we HAVE to struggle for dumb dps. It doesn't change the efficiency of FF. All it means is that retarded mage isn't going to make your entire instance a living hell.
    Agreed: I don't think it's necessarily fair that a retarded LOLDeePeeEss~er should have the ability to ruin my instance and then turn around and blame *me* for the results of their inability to follow simple instructions or create/use an assist macro. This was a very large part of the reason that for a long time my Warrior became, in effect 'not my main' except in a raid context.

    Even in-guild people just want to blow stuff up, and arguably should be fully allowed to do so on casual content. Never mind the PuG factor.

    I know class comparisons tend to be frowned upon here - with good reason - but the mechanics were such that Warriors were simply not well suited to tanking certain content. The gauntlet in Shattered Halls being a common example. I never was comfortable with the idea that for certain classes that was misrably difficult, to the point where I know guilds where on occasion Warrior Tanks were speccing damage and using a Pally for that run so they could complete their attunement/titles. And by the same token it's really only fair that if AoE was given to one where before there was almost none, that better single target was returned to the other guy/gal.


    In general though, at the moment I think it might be beneficial to not read a lot into the current state of the game. Rather relax and use the current all around OP~ness to prep for the expansion. After all, it's now possible to run 2 Heroics on a work night where before maybe you had time for just the one. Get your badge gear and stockpile mats for your profession before The Great Race begins again in a couple weeks.
    Last edited by Scotteq; 10-20-2008 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Comma Abuse, Speling and Grammur

  5. #65
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    I'm assumming that they've decided to change the "threat minigame" - basically remove it and replace it with other ways to challenge us. If you step way back, threat is an arbitrary mechanic to give people a way to prove their skills and succeed at something hard. The game doesnt have to run a tight threat mechanic in order to be fun, as long as there are new challenges that force people to work well together. I also think a bigger part of the challenge should not be related to gear or abilities - the mechanics of your boring old class which are the same for everyone. The challenges should be related to the skill of the players in the moment. Yes, I can parse logs, do tons of math, and come up with optimal gear sets + rotations... I enjoying doing it alot, and it takes a certain kind of skill. But its an out-of-game skill. I dont think that's the kind of fun Blizzard want to promote, since its just too bloody esoteric for most people. They want us to be in the game, playing it, and whether or not we've done a ton of opimizing homework on the side, it may not may a big difference. That's what I'm hoping for anyway.

    I also guess there was way too little testing done at the sunwell level, and that's why it was so broken. So few people ever went there... and there was a blue post recently saying that sunwell was just too hard, they never intended to make it that way.

  6. #66
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    Really I'm just looking at the entire instance game from both stand points. The Tank and the DPS.

    Sure you guys make points about Tanks needing to do there share of DPS now (though I'd just play a DPS class and top the meter if I actually gave a damn about DPS) But seriously do feel like this game has become a serious button masher.

    Large pulls in 5 mans took calculation Shattered Halls and MgT were so fun to tank, run in TC, Throw Devestates up, Spell Reflect tank that caster fucker, spin around CC Blow that bastard you missed, etc.

    Now I'm having a blast with the new tanking abilities and I will miss the older school style. I was always one to boldly say things like 'Prot Pallies are only for people that need things easy' regardless though I'd say it was a needed change.

    But its more on the DPS side that concerns me, its just the complete lack of restraint needed that makes it seem like its not even an instance anymore. And the I feel that restraining yourself is a large part of what an instance is.

    When your solo grinding you can go all out because your only worrying about yourself, but in an instance, you need to worry about threat, the CC'd mobs (some no longer break in one hit if I remember right)

    Yet on my paladin I'm just going all out, fuck the marks just hit something, and this lack of restraint causes me to go on a DPS high where I worry about nothing else.
    To be honest it was my lack of restraint that made me understand a while ago that DPS just wasn't for me awhile ago.

    So generally I think tanking is overall fine, DPS needs a bit of reworking

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    Trust me, tanking can and will still leave plenty of room to show how much better you are than the rest. All I'm saying is you CAN succeed by doing the bare minimum, but you can also do so much more to impress and help your raid.
    This is the kind of thing I was hoping to hear. I think it'll be fun working on maximizing personal DPS, I just hope that's not the primary focus of being a good tank anymore. Hearing people say "the new challenge is DPS!" I find worrisome.

  8. #68
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    So um...are we supposed to use Shockwave on single target tanking for that extra DPS?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    So um...are we supposed to use Shockwave on single target tanking for that extra DPS?
    ....If it does more damage than your shield slam I would say yes. There's been complaints of shockwave not hitting bosses due to the size of the mob/you relative location on the hitbox. To be honest from a damage-per-second PoV you are most better off spamming abilities that let you shield slam more often.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  10. #70
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    Threat is less of an issue freshly into 80 content than it is in endgame stuff at 70 right now, same mechanics. I've already said this, but I'll say it again. (Btw, please please read the whole thread before replying people)

    Level 70 gear was barely chopped up to be more in-line with the threat mechanics/3.0 changes. Level 80 gear is designed from the beginning with the mechanics in mind.

    My "threat lead" is much larger on Beta than it is in live. I'm a LOT stronger comparatively in wrath than I am in live. However, this is to say that right now on live it's NOT a complete walk in the park, but it is a lot easier. Many of the rest of you, I know, have absolutely no issues right now - but we're dealing with different beasts (raids/dps'ers) here.

    Wrath at 80 will still provide plenty of challenges for tanks, maybe not a ton in the first "tier" of content since it's specifically tuned to be trivial, but after that, I think it'll be fine.

    Really, don't worry. I know I'll be able to do things that will make plenty of people ask the question, "omg, how do you do that!" and such.
    Xav
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnuss View Post
    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  11. #71
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    I have to say that when TBC came out, encounters felt more like I was fighting against my party rather than against the mob. I for one am happy with the new changes. I do think that we will still see a difference between tanks of different caliber. As of yet, we have not seen how gear will affect scaling beyond 5 man/heroics and a little bit of naxx in WOTLK. Just like when TBC was released, we had not seen anything past Tempest Keep.
    How things bear out will something we just have to wait and see.

  12. #72
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    I have to say that now, I find threat much easier to keep, but I will admit that I've had dpsers pull off me still. Usually at the beginning of a boss fight, or on trash I'm not focusing on. I had an arms warrior pull threat from me on Felmyst the other night.

    Threat is more fun, and less frustrating. I think a lot of the people here hit the nail on the head, tanking trash should not be harder than tanking a boss. Prior to 3.0, it was.

  13. #73
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    Let me state that I understand the changes to threat, and why they were made. I think it's great that Blizz is fixing the problem. However, at the early T5 level, it just seems like too much. When I can massively out-threat everyone AND be in the top 3 on DPS without having to work very hard for it, it serves to cheapen the experience for me. I actually liked running heroic Shattered Halls with no CC before 3.0.2. It was tough, but it was fun, because it was tough.

    Maybe I'm reading too far into it, and it's more a factor of the quality of our DPSers. Post 3.0.2, we have 2 hunters that are floating around 1500 DPS. Then there's "the rest" of the DPSers who run the gamut, but generally are doing pretty well if they hit 700-800 DPS. It's completely possible that the lack of challenge I'm feeling now is due to the fact that our DPSers simply aren't able to push the envelope enough.

    Understand where I'm coming from: before 3.0.2, I was maintaining Battle/Comm, Demo, TC (we don't typically run with any DPS warriors, or a second warrior tank for that matter), SB, and maintaining a good ability rotation for aggro. Shouts and TC could be fudged, but SB and the threat rotation had to be solid, or I died and the raid wiped, or a DPSer pulled aggro and got their face melted. The SB mechanic and the threat race (at my level, at least) have now been eliminated. So yes, right now I'm not feeling challenged. The damage factor has been added, but I haven't had to fight to be at the top.

    I also realize that T5 tanking right now is not Sunwell tanking, and is not tanking in WotLK. I'm not saying that tanking is broken. I'm raiding obsolete content with abilities balanced for content I can't access yet. This is simply my take on what I'm experiencing now, in the content I'm currently in, with the caliber of raider I have to work with. It's not a commentary on the shortcomings of the new tanking mechanic.

    My question to those who have experienced raiding in WotLK: has the true measure of a tank's effectiveness become how much damage they can put out?
    Kazeyonoma: Giving people too much time to think makes them do stupid things too.

  14. #74
    Speaking as a full sunwell tank, I can completely confirm everything that Xav has said here.

    The issue wasn't so much that the DPS can't control themselves so much as that the fight doesn't ALLOW the tank to generate less threat. It's a constant strain from start to finish in sunwell to keep threat on mobs that do everything they can to counter your efforts.

    Cleaving mobs, stunning mobs, mobs that teleport, mobs that fear, mobs that stun AND fear! Bosses that can and will gib you when even a single debuff is missing (brutallus).

    Even simple things like reflections tanking for kil'jaeden is significantly easier. Warbringer is AMAZING for this.

    In relation to how it is now, I've done several instances so far in the new patch. I did well in sunwell, getting 7-10th on the damage meters in general. In ZA and KZ however, I was number 1 or 2 the whole run, usually ending with about 15-18% of damage done (full T6/sunwell geared groups).

    In reference to people saying that the aoe damage is too much. I strongly disagree. You can't hold using aoe abilities against single target threat, so it's important for dps to focus as well. And some things just can't be tanked in large numbers/full pulls. I would enjoy watching you try to tank full pulls of trash in sunwell past twins. That'd be funny.

    To be perfectly frank, if you haven't been tanking at top tier content there is absolutely no way for you to conceptualize the problems that were rectified by the changes to threat that they made. Did they go overboard? I don't think so. I still have people that can keep up with me on threat in certain instances. But modesty aside (and I'm sure any MT in a full SW clearing guild can say this), I'm extremely good at threat, and tanking in general. Some of my DPS are extremely good at their jobs too, which has the end result of generating a lot of threat. If you think you can just slack while tanking still, then you're wrong. There's still a component of skill required to stay ahead of skilled DPS. If you're finding it boring/easy to keep threat, then your DPS needs to learn how to step it up, for sure.

    And besides, boredom is a function of personality, not a response to stimuli, and the tanking rotations are much more interesting than ever before!
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster." -Frederick Nietszche

  15. #75
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    -edit-Damn, there was a post b/w mine and the one I was responding to. This is @dismember

    Please understand that I do not mean to be offensive in saying this, but dpsers doing that little damage strikes me as a clear sign of a complete lack of skill, at any gear level. Shouldn't it be the case that if you considerably outclass your dps in terms of skill (as it seems clear that you do) then you should coordinately outclass them in terms of threat generated? Personally, I'd say the solution to your problem would actually be hiring some better dps that can challenge you or looking for a place where your skills are of more use. One of the most bitter-sweet components of WoW for a good player with friends in low places is deciding b/w not being challenged with good pals or trying to see how high up the guild ranking ladder you can get. Sadly, it seems you're going to have to make that choice now.

  16. #76
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    @Sparan

    Honestly, I can't say you're wrong with that assessment.
    Kazeyonoma: Giving people too much time to think makes them do stupid things too.

  17. #77
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    honestly, this thread could go on forever with the sunwell tanks telling you how fast DPS TPS scaled compared to tank TPS and those who have not yet experienced that saying otherwise because they just have not seen what a 4t6/4sunwell glaive rogue/warrior can do TPS wise. The biggest example of this would be illidan flames, my FR is the same it was 14 months ago the 1st time i ever attempted illidan, i traded my fr bracers for t6 bracers and twins shoulders and my ring with the expertise ring on muru, but the DPS now have full sunwell gear in every slot. You have virtually no hit rating or expertise, you almost have to open up with a taunt cuz 1/2 the time your shield slam/mangle will miss, you get the idea, not pretty when a rogue pulls and blazes all the melee.

    the biggest thing i agree with xav with is that 1-2% threat lead is not enough, at any point a warlock could crit 4-5 shadowbolts in a row having already been at 110% threat, a hunter might not notice his feign resist, mangle/shield slam gets parried or misses, felmyst if taken to enrage has 3 flying intervals where the ranged can lay into him where the tank cant do anything, you need at least a 30% if not more lead when she takes off.

    the gear was never itemized for threat either, sunwell gear has zero hit rating on it, sure its got expertise, but almost every warrior past twins has 10 hit in every single yellow slot, and with good reason.

    and sparan are you at work or something get on vent!



  18. #78
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    I still do believe DPS needs some sort of penalty for not restraining themselves in an instance.

    This is really my only problem. I just wanna know if Wrath will actually make that basic scenario stay.

    Back when I used to tank Heroic MgT on my Warrior the pulls be4 the first boss I'd always mark a Skull, and then another one after that one dies, because obviously pre-2.3 a Warrior can't hold aggro on all of those mobs unless the DPS single targets. If they do Single target I can hold everything using Thunder Clap, Cleave, Spell Reflect and my Mouse over Devestate macro (dont need that anymore tho)

    If the DPS chose to AoE or attack whatever they felt like it would result in them pulling aggro.

    Now DPS can hit whatever they want when they want and normally not pull, they just hit whatever the tab button targets first.

    And because tanks are so effective at holding multiple mobs it seems that DPS just worries about going all out completly, the Ret Pally doesn't watch to see who could use a BoP, the Mage doesn't use that handy dandy frost nova to save the healer. DPS, especially ranged had an obligation to be he healers last line of defense and it was there job to also look out for them.

    I'm just worried that the game will become a tank and spam, I'm positive raiding will never become this, but it seems like you dont even need to kno shit about your class to do decent in a 5-man (or at least not fuck it up)
    Last edited by Kahmal; 10-20-2008 at 12:17 PM.

  19. #79
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    I know a mage which every time he uses frost nova, the healer dies. It's retarded. Idiot pulls aggro early, and frost novas right where the healer is standing, and jumps away, killing the first target in melee range: my healer. I don't run with him anymore and he hardly gets a raid invite because he is just plain stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
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  20. #80
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    I think there’s another reason that Blizz changed the threat “mini-game”: to make it more fun for the dpsers. Most of what I do in-game is tank, but there have often been times where a guildie’s warrior alt was tanking a heroic (to gain experience, mostly) and he needed one more dps. So, for a while I’d respec fury and go along as dps, but it wasn’t any fun because I had to hold back so much while dpsing. Often, I would be stuck just auto-attacking, or I’d suddenly pull aggro with a Bloodthirst crit and have to stop attacking altogether to give the tank time to build up some more threat. Now granted, the person tanking was somewhat undergeared, but when it came to my dps gearset, I was equally undergeared. It was very frustrating not to be able to play to my full potential, as I can while tanking, so I stopped going along. Since the patch, though, I can go all out as a dps in his heroic runs, and it’s much more enjoyable.

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