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Thread: Threat being a non issue....do you like?

  1. #21
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    And also, about the "our dps matters now", argument, this is most definitely still a skill-nerf.

    It used to be:
    "We absolutely HAVE to be on top of a meter" (the meter was Omen)

    Now its:
    "It's nice if we're somewhere on the meter" (dps-meter)

    The challenge has been blunted.

  2. #22
    I do get what you mean Xav and altho I hadn't quite got to Sunwell yet I was through to Illidan and there are points where you would get overzelous DPS just going all out to create as many big numbers as they could and be dammed the result.

    Wether that was them dieing or not it was down to the tank to basically try to generate 30k+ threat on mobs in about 5 secs because they would give you no lead time.

    I personally got used to it but there were times I would have to intercept or generally taunt when I shouldn't really have to.

    Now we are into the 3.0 patch changes and I love it. I don't havce to be overally watcful of TPS meters, altho do check that I'm ahead but I also see some of the DPS classes create 2k TPS sometimes. But taking Cider's advice I got the Revenge glyph and the heroic strike glyph and I just seem to be able to do what I want and have fun doing it.

    As we get into the expansion and go towards level 80 I'm unsure wether the same results will still be there bu I hope so because Blizz say they don't want DPS to have to hold back because the threat mechanic isn't good enough.

    Ironically we had a warlock moaning after half a raid that it was to easy and that he might not raid anymore before the expansiom.. after half a raid sheesh.

    Anyways I'm having fun
    Anu (80 Warrior)
    Tank for The Untouchables - Runetotem (EU)

  3. #23
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    The other point that has been made before and I feel compelled to reemphasize is that simply holding threat is most likely no longer the mark of a good tank. Most tanks will and probably should be able to hold aggro against most dps-ers. This will make finding acceptable tanks for 5-mans and heroics easier--right now it's quite hard.

    What this means is that you now have a duty to focus beyond your threat generation and look at the actual damage you contribute to the raid, and how you can maximize your control of the battlefield. How many mobs can you keep stunned at once while maintaining threat and rage intake? This will be really cool for your healers. More importantly: how much DAMAGE are you doing? Forget threat...you should be pushing your DPS to do better. I'm currently averaging in the top 10 on damage meters in my guild. I don't think that's acceptable, and I'm pushing any dps that's below me to get above me.

    The deal with tanking now is that threat simply isn't enough anymore to make you a great tank. It's necessary, but not sufficient. If you're bored because you can hold aggro, I promise that you can do more damage and contribute more to the raid.

    And to Gloinir's point...it's only a skill nerf if you only care about doing the minimum contribution to your raid. What this does is make being an ACCEPTABLE tank easier, but it makes truly great tanks stand out more. The higher you are on that damage meter, the better tank you are. The fact that you'll never be on top doesn't make it any less of a challenge or any less important. You're absolutely right that the minimum effort required to tank has decreased by a huge margin. However, the maximum benefit from tanking well has increased by the same margin. Your goal is to make yourself exceptional, not acceptable.
    I. Am. Warrior.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloinir View Post
    The challenge has been blunted.
    It is clear to me with the class changes that the perception of the tanking "challenge" requires a complete paradigm shift. If a tank wants to keep playing a tank post 3.0 and remain "competitive" then you will quickly find that the competition is no longer about TPS. The challenge is about how much you can wreck your target. Now, your ability to be a good tank also affects the speed at which you kill your boss (tanks dealing damage) which, imo, seems infinitely more fun. Now tanks get to play the game that everyone else gets to play: kill the bad-guy. No longer is it just: make the bad guy angry.

    Warriors feel like the archetype they should be in 3.0.
    Last edited by Lilie; 10-20-2008 at 08:08 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloinir View Post
    Now its:
    "It's nice if we're somewhere on the meter" (dps-meter)
    Absolutely not. Our damage output is just as important as the Hunters' and Warlocks'.

    Remember, level 70 content is not balanced with Tank DPS in mind. That's a large part of why Sunwell is getting absolutely rolled. Level 80 content, however, is. A tank doing 800 DPS in Naxx is just as bad as a Hunter doing 1200. Yeah, he's technically doing what he's supposed to be, he's just not doing it well.

    Even Brutallus had some measure of importance behind Tank DPS. This is why a lot of guilds preferred Druid tanks, they were simply able to put out more damage than the others. Patchwerk will probably be similar at 80. You have to squeeze out as much DPS as you can out of your raid, and if your tank is doing 500 less DPS than he could be, he's failing.
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  6. #26
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    Making threat easier to generate was a great move.

    Prior to 3.0 I needed ALL of my effort and time devoted to threat generation. I could simply NOT spare any GCD's to put up Demoralizing shout or Thunder Clap, other people had to do them. I never wanted to leave defensive stance to use Mocking Blow, because I'd lose all my rage. I didn't want to break CC/sheep when I had no rage, because there was no chance I could hold the mob on me.

    Now, you can say, "tell your dps to hold back". But, that doesn't really apply. Telling DPS to slow down now and then in special circumstances is one thing. But our role as a tank is to confidently keep the mobs on us so that way the DPS can do their own jobs to their max potential as well. So it got to the point where it was just constant stress, telling DPS about how screwy shit is with threat and how they're always riding the line and likely dying because of it.

    I didn't like not being able to put up Demo or TC and having to ALWAYS nag and yell for it from my offtanks/DPS warriors. I would have loved to be able to reliably control it myself since I track everything. But I couldn't. I didn't have that rage and GCD advantage floating around.

    Less emphasis on pure threat output helps us out in the mitigation department. We were so GCD-locked due to threat before that now we can spend more GCD's on Demo, TC, and even actually use the dreaded GCD-Bound Shield Wall. We have more decision making now and a more involved role in the raid.
    Last edited by Xav; 10-20-2008 at 08:15 AM.
    Xav
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  7. #27
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    But we already DID that!

    It used to be that our TPS set the ceiling for the DPS in the raid, and, assuming we ran with good DPS that we're hitting that ceiling, it meant that what we did determined the TPS of the *entire raid*.

    So it used to be, if I did 10%, the entire raid's DPS went up 10%.

    Now, if I do 10% better, then if I'm on a par with 7 other DPS in a ten-man, then raid DPS goes up 10% / 6 = 1,67%.

    We're doing the same thing, only actually LESS so.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    We were so GCD-locked due to threat before that now we can spend more GCD's on Demo, TC, and even actually use the dreaded GCD-Bound Shield Wall. We have more decision making now and a more involved role in the raid.
    This is keen.

  9. #29
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    I suspect Xav being in my head reading my mind....

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    Absolutely not. Our damage output is just as important as the Hunters' and Warlocks'.
    Lore, I'm in complete agreement with this, but think about what I'm saying.

    These days, our dps is JUST AS important as the other guys', just like you're saying.

    The point is, our tps used to be much MORE important.

  11. #31
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    My Experience as a Tank only takes me as far as Kara. I usually stuck to doing just Heroics. There was only one Heroic I could not do with a PUG.

    Shattered Halls.

    Thanks to DPS that couldn't restrain themselves and let me get a head-start on the threat meters, they'd inevitable pull aggro and despite burning CDs to save them, one would die and then they would go off on how horrible a tank I am and they should have taken a pally. Then promptly get the boot for a pally that could tank it.

    It's not to say I haven't completed that place, I did it with my guild easily enough. But they knew they had to let me get the threat to hold it and of course had to make sure they didn't go balls-to-the-walls DPS on them once I said it was okay.

    But now, 3.0 has enabled me to enjoy tanking on a whole new level. First, I can finally maintain respectable AoE threat. I tanked with a PUG on Shattered Halls and I was able to hold all the mobs on me, not a problem at all. BUT! There was a new challenge for me too...doing as much damage as possible as a tank. I soon realized that maintaining threat was not enough, I now will also be viewed on how much damage I could do as a tank.

    I don't claim to be a super know-it-all tank, but it's no longer just about threat. It's also about doing as much damage as you can. Other DPS class will notice that Tanks are beating them, which will enable them to realize they need to start pushing it as well.

    Instead of, "Bob here is a great tank! He can generate threat like a bastard!".

    It will now be, "Bob here is a damn fine tank! He damages as if he was some kind of Rogue!".

  12. #32
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    The AoE threat increase is just icing on the cake, and made to equalize tanks so Paladins and DK's aren't the only AOE capable tanks. I for one adored Shattered Halls and it's really where I went to hone my skills when I first started tanking seriously on my warrior (this was about a month after TBC launch, prior to the heroic nerfs).

    I could tank SH heroic succesfully, all 5-7 mobs per pull. It was a blast and being able to do it efficiently and well was recognized and bettered tanks. While more people can now do such a thing with much, much less effort, it doesn't really change the greater point of the 3.0/tank changes. The raw threat output scaling, which was greatly improved.

    I don't think tank damage is THAT important, sure I'll work to always maximize my damage without bringing more damage upon myself, and I'll question tanks not maximizing their own DPS within my raids.

    I don't think AoE threat improvement is anything to get unhappy about either.

    But I really feel strongly that the increase in our threat output was sorely needed to make the game more enjoyable for players on all levels.
    Xav
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  13. #33
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    Amen Xav. I think it'd probably be semi-difficult to understand how horribly in need of repair the threat mechanics were for someone who hasn't played as a prot warrior in a sunwell-geared guild, because it's only at that point that you start seeing a reduction of threat output from it's already mediocre level in the face of insane tps from dps. When planning stance dances to use recklessness and/or zerker rage on bosses, or turning your back just to get the guaranteed rage income become live options then you have a problem with threat mechanics. When you have a hard-capped threat ceiling once you reach 142 hit (using hit food, and allotting a number of gemslots to hit gemming, I might add) 56-57 expertise and the 800-whatever BV that it's possible to squeeze in considering existing gear and you still have to groan while you wildly mash your threat rotation and stare at your block trinket cooldown on a fight that's only like 2.5 minutes long, then something is wrong with threat mechanics. When on M'uru adds you have about 10 different possible add-pick-up contingency plans (based on the order they come through the door in and how spread they are) and 1 unlucky resist or the selection of the wrong plan = you not getting one of the three adds on you and a shammy dying, there's something wrong with threat mechanics.

    I've put a lot of time into thinking about the ramifications of this change, myself. Does it make you a less-significant skill-spot in the raid? Will bosses living or dying depend as much on you (and the healers) playing perfectly any more? Probably not. But in all honesty it was entirely unfair the burden that tanks had to bear in terms of consistent focus and perfect play in relation to all of the other people in the raid. Just a trash clear is sometimes enough to have a tank in a bad mood and slightly burnt out b/c while the rest of the raid is talking on vent and passing the time we're playing the intercept/intervene -> taunt/mockingblow to clean up after people mistargeting, not bothering to mind the sheep, etc. in addition to tanking 2-4 adds with no aoe threat tools to speak of. On bosses, too, it was extremely unfair that I had to make the decision on every fourth or so global to disrupt my rotation to compensate for the 2nd consecutive tclap/demo resist or to live with the possibility of it dropping off and me dying as a result. If I generate insufficient threat, I've failed as a tank, and if I die on account of one of my debuffs falling off, I've failed as a tank. Show me another class that has to make that kind of decision 10-15 times a fight!

    Additionally, I'm very pleased with some of the recent additions/changes to our complement of survival cooldowns. I've always felt that the most significant decision in a boss fight that any one person has to make on the fly is when to use last stand/shieldwall/trinkets, and now I have even more buttons to consider using, and pretty interestingly varied cooldowns so the task of internalizing which cooldown to use when and for what purpose is going to be extremely fun. Also, while I think people are overstating the significance of dealing damage and how important a measure of tanking greatness that will become in LK (consider spriests, whose damage was only ever commented on b/c of their mana returns through damage, and at best received a kind of /golfclap from the raid at large), it's still going to be unbelievably fun to get that fated bosskill where you get a snb literally every time you push the revenge or devastate buttons and you managed to piss off a lock by beating him on the meters.

  14. #34
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    Thanks for the indepth support Sparan - you really hit it on the head with your examples. I could have elaborated in the same way, infact this subject is something I'm rather passionate about! You were spot-on and and understand it all too well. Particularly the comment on the trash clears and how DPS can mash their 2222 button putting out over 4k sustained dps (lol, chain shadowbolt/fireball crits) while having a grand time on vent, meanwhile we're machinegunning our keyboard to try and save lives.
    Last edited by Xav; 10-20-2008 at 08:49 AM.
    Xav
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
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  15. #35
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    Another thing to contribute. Tanking pug and guild heroics I was always asking, "Why is it that I have to work so hard in here and you guys can just mash nuke and play as sloppily as you want?" It's no fun when your DPS thinks they can just do whatever they want and null is the consequence because they have the best tank they have ever seen. Now it's different because that rogue is now scared I'll outdps his trashy self too...
    Last edited by Dreadski; 10-20-2008 at 08:43 AM. Reason: punctuation >.<
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    But where were you on the DPS meter?
    I was second, behind our lead hunter.

    That's because you're not looking towards the new challenge. You're just seeing "threat removed" and stopping there. DPS is now just as much a tank responsibility as it is for the rogues and warlocks. A good tank is defined not by their ability to survive and hold aggro, but by their ability to survive and put out competitive DPS.

    Yeah, you can just faceroll and probably hold aggro, but you're not doing your job.
    But that hasn't been a challenge either. I have yet to walk out of a raid post 3.0.2 where I have not been in the top 3 for damage. Granted, I'm not facerolling to get there, but it hasn't exactly been difficult.

    My enjoyment of tanking has always stemmed from the challenge. A big part of that challenge used to be keeping SB up so I didn't go splat, while at the same time maintaining a tight ability rotation to maximize threat. They've taken that challenge away. I know they're trying to make tanking more "friendly", but I think they've overshot the mark and oversimplified what used to be an engaging experience.
    Kazeyonoma: Giving people too much time to think makes them do stupid things too.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    Thanks for the indepth support Sparan - you really hit it on the head with your examples. I could have elaborated in the same way, infact this subject is something I'm rather passionate about! You were spot-on and and understand it all too well. Particularly the comment on the trash clears and how DPS can mash their 2222 button putting out over 4k sustained dps (lol, chain shadowbolt/fireball crits) while having a grand time on vent, meanwhile we're machinegunning our keyboard to to try and save lives.
    Oh god does that remind me so much of my guild's first runs of TK and MH.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparan View Post
    Everything I could have possibly said but didn't
    Yes! Half of my guild thinks I'm an antisocial bastard because I almost never say anything in a raid. I didn't have time to!

    I had a little focus area on my 1900x1200 display consisting of action bar 1 and 2, DBM bars above it, HUD numbers for my health and rage, and target's cast bar. That's about all I ever saw in many boss fights. So wrong.

    I'm still waiting for Blizzard to make it even half as engaging to play my mage.

    Edit: If you're coming in second or third on a 25 raid damage meter, your DPS are slackers or retards.

  19. #39
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    Strongly disagreed Dismember.

    Now, Shield Block is a truly strong mitigation tool. When multi-mob tanking, espcially stunnable mobs, we can time our abilities to say, Shockwave stun, wait for the stun to wear off, put up Shield Block, taking pretty much no damage for the duration of it.

    We can actually use our own mitigation tools, TC and Demo Clap without needing other people to do it for us. We can use Shield Wall and Last Stand more frequently, making openings with other abilities, boss timers, whatever and cutting down the damage we take moreso.

    Rather than having a bunch of abilities as nuisances you simply HAVE to spam (old Shield Block), or truly oh-shit abilities that you wanted to save for that very crucial moment every 30 minutes, now we can actually plan to selectively use things, chain cooldowns over a period, and so forth, reliably.

    I use CooldownTimers2. When my abilities go on cooldown, they show up in the middle right of my screen, making a line of them down the screen as more go on cooldown. When I'm really being involved in a pull and using all of my abilities to their max potential, I'll have like 10+ bars cooling off on the page at once, and I can afford to do that now rather than being pigeonholed into simply tanking one or two mobs "strongly" and the rest just 'barely acceptable'.

    I'm really sorry you feel that tanking has been made less-involved now, but if that's your opinion all I can think is that you're not maximizing your class, new abilities, and timers to make the most of situations.

    And frankly, while our DPS got upped big time, we aren't going to be breaking top 10 in a 25 person raid unless we're AoE tanking huge numbers of mobs for long periods of time.

    Edit: I feel this is also a good time to say that I get annoyed in our 25 man raids @ 80 when other tanks "help" tank trash pulls. I'm perfectly capable of doing it all myself, and I like the abilities I get to use doing so. It's really a blast, really involved, and a huge improvement over what we were capable of pre-3.0.
    Xav
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  20. #40
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    i think that the absence of challenge comes from our lack of knowledge about how much dps should we be able to do

    before 3.0, all dps could easily say if the tank is not performing well, they had this trained eye that told them "ups 3 shadow bolt crits, if this will be crit as well i will pull it" and when they pulled it with just one crit, they new sth was wrong

    now you dont even have to perform to 100%, you can miss some cooldowns, who cares if youre 40% above the next person in threat meter, so what matters now is how much dps can you put out while doing your usual job, but how much dps should we do?

    is 800 dps on teron good enough? i have made 1k+dps while tanking him, is that enough? i dont know but after some weeks and some more data from other tanks we will see that some of us can do 1500+ dps on him, so there we have out new challenge

    and i believe that in wotlk the challenge for tanks will be in the encounter mechanics

    i mean, do you think that now in 3.0 your job while tanking lets say felmyst is as dificult as the job healers have to do here? no way, not even close

    so now just enjoy the fun of doing big numbers, aoe killing the whole BT, take your t6 group ro kara and kill maiden in 20 secs, have some fun, there will be plenty of time for serious bussines in wotlk again .)

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