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Thread: Threat being a non issue....do you like?

  1. #1
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    Threat being a non issue....do you like?

    Well when I first heard that threat wasn't going to be nearly as much of an issue at first I was kind of upset, but after seeing how much more fun tanking is now I think it'll be ok.

    But still after I get over how awesome Shockwave and Sword and Board are I'm probably going to miss constantly looking at Omen seeing if my threat is up to par and trying to stay above the threat of that asshole Warlock.

    I was praised for my threat back in the day and the Omen was the equivelent to Recount in terms of satisfaction for tanks.

    To be honest though I haven't really done so much on my Warrior since I've leveling a Paladin to go Holy, and being Ret now (which is insane even after hotfixes imo) if I'm ever to get into a group as DPS with a Tanking spec'd tank, I get to go all out, blast everything, what I want and when I want.

    I'm just very curious, is this how WotLK will be!? I mean we all saw the Utgarde Keep video, and sure zerging is always fun but isn't it the restraint that makes 5 manning fun? When DPSing as Fury pre 3.0 sure I'd love to charge in and go all out, but the fact that I have to watch my Whirlwinds is the small part of what makes it a team effort, and the fact that you need to think.

    On my 65 Paladin I dont think when I DPS I just destroy in 5 mans, I get that DPS high which causes me to not pay attention to other things, but at the same time now we really dont have to.

    I dunno what do you guys think?
    Last edited by Kahmal; 10-19-2008 at 12:08 PM.

  2. #2
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    The threat minigame was something that was completely broken at the high end. Threat capabilities of tanks were fully realized somewhere in the Tier 5 level of content/gear, and there was 2 entire tiers higher than that. All of T6, and then all of Sunwell. When DPS starts getting the extremely huge upgrades of those tiers, they just shoot past the tanks in TPS output.

    Something absolutely needed to be done, the game was no longer fun at all for high end tanks because if your DPS is aggressive and pushing it to the limit as well, they would always simply blow by the tanks in threat. It's emphasized on short-lived trash mobs where DPS feels more confident in attacking things quick because it's just "trash" and getting yourselves killed on it won't wipe the raid like a boss. Example like, sheeps are up, tank moves to break one, a second or two later it's being nuked hard, at that point you're pretty much going to have to taunt towards the end to keep it stuck to you while you get the next mob broken.

    I've always had extremely exceptional threat generation, all feign-modesty aside, I had the highest threat reports for most of the good "threat gauging" fights for the longest time, pre 3.0. But there exists fights where threat is even more sensitive and fast-DPS is essential, where you simply can't wear that same type of threat gear. Specifically, a fight like Felmyst or the epitome of it; Entropius [M'uru phase 2]. Prior to the nerfs Entropius required a hardcore raid DPS burn of every consumable, timer, heroism, etc and you had to kill him in about 90 seconds, max. Meanwhile he hit like a truck, and the parts of the fight prior to that also put immense pressure on the tank's suvivability, so you couldn't just walk in there in a full threat suit and tank Entropius phase 2.

    As I tanked through the different tiers of content, I saw how my threat gains in earlier stuff started slipping away and becoming dangerously frustrating in the higher tiers. At the very highest tier of fully Sunwell geared DPS vs the tank, it was no longer fun. No matter how good you are, it was hopeless; dps would always annihilate you on threat, and thus, they had to gimp themselves to even keep things manageable.

    I could truly write about how broken the threat scaling mechanics were prior to 3.0, for pages and pages, but it's fixed now. I'm very thankful for the changes and glad they realized it.

    On the flip side, while threat is much easier to manage now and no longer something that fully encompasses the game for the tank, they made it equally engaging and fun by giving us more abilities, more on-proc decisions to make, more "survivability" reactionary cooldowns, and great DPS output with very high damage output, high damage is always fun to see.
    Xav
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  3. #3
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    Pretty much what Xav said. I'm a bit bummed because there was always something to be said for being able to generate "the threat" and be known for it, and that's pretty much gone. I am somewhat optimistic because It leaves room to make encounters challenging in different ways. If they capitalise on that, WLK will be excellent.

  4. #4
    Echoing Xav here as well, with this to add:

    I love tanking. I also love DPS, and I love leveling alts. Giving my main some DPS is a great way to keep me wanting to come back to the same fights over and over again just to see if I can improve on how I did last week. And making threat much easier means I can take my undergeared tank alt to something and still tank badge run heroics/10mans that my T6 Warlock friends are attending.
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  5. #5
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    First few things I ran, I didn't have to think about threat. Kara, a few heroics. No problems at all. In fact my threat was so high that our kiter couldn't pull Kael's phoenix off me.

    But then I played with some guys that were maybe a little tier higher than me in gear level and really knew their class well (I'm tier 4 eq). And all of a sudden I did have to watch my threat. No more of that I'm gonna focus on this, attack whatever you want, damage shield + tc + cleave will keep everything on me.

    So I don't think threat is gonna disappear, it's still gonna be there and that's fine. Shockwave after all takes some aiming ;-) and tc is on a 6 sec cd. I still tab a little bit threat is a given by any means. It's definitely a lot more fun and I really enjoy the changes except... being a tank no longer gets you automatic group invites .

  6. #6
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    There is still the whole issue of zerging instances that still troubles me about WoTLK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    There is still the whole issue of zerging instances that still troubles me about WoTLK
    You don't "Zerg" the heroic instances, they've got some challenging stuff in there. But in a few months when they nerf the heroics so the casual player can complete them again, they'll be "zergable" - just as the pattern was in TBC.
    Xav
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    I completely agree with Xav and Satrina. I still think more observant DPSers will be able to look at the threat meter and notice the difference in the margins of threat generated between different tanks, though, and having super high TPS won't be completely meaningless.

    In regards to Xav's post, I also felt incredibly stressed when tanking very threat sensitive fights and it really just wore me down after a while. Especially when your DPS starts to get to the T6 level, even fights that I used to have no problems with threat on started to burn me out. It really just made the game not fun for me and many other tanks included. I'd gladly trade some of the pride from being recognized as a high TPS tank for making tanking more fun in general.

  9. #9
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    I agree with what has been said.
    However, what is now the point of threat reducing talents? Why add "Vigilance" talent in WotLK?

  10. #10
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    Am I the only one who liked the "old" way better? I found it extremely challenging to keep tps high as the DPS got better. Yes it was tough and you had to be VERY good at it as you got to into Sunwell... but I actually started to enjoy tanking even more because of it. I understand that it's just impossible for the DPS to go all out on some fights where the tank couldn't wear a pure threat set, but that could have been fixed. There was one stat that wasn't even included on any sunwell gear that would have been a big help: +hit. If they itemized a bit better I don't think it would have been a problem. The new style of tanking is fun and all (for now), but I still miss the old threat....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foofy View Post
    I agree with what has been said.
    However, what is now the point of threat reducing talents? Why add "Vigilance" talent in WotLK?
    So prot warriors can use it on each other?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xav View Post
    You don't "Zerg" the heroic instances, they've got some challenging stuff in there. But in a few months when they nerf the heroics so the casual player can complete them again, they'll be "zergable" - just as the pattern was in TBC.
    Hopefully they won't nerf heroics much, the content is a lot more balanced this time around. TBC heroics were way too hard for the rewards.

    I don't entirely agree on the threat changes. Sure the scaling needed to be improved a lot, and it has. But being able to just AE everything because it is so easy gets boring very fast. That doesn't change in LK heroics or raids, which I think is what he meant with 'zerging'.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dots View Post
    Hopefully they won't nerf heroics much, the content is a lot more balanced this time around. TBC heroics were way too hard for the rewards.

    I don't entirely agree on the threat changes. Sure the scaling needed to be improved a lot, and it has. But being able to just AE everything because it is so easy gets boring very fast. That doesn't change in LK heroics or raids, which I think is what he meant with 'zerging'.
    On the flip side, I was about ready to throw out my warrior tank in 2.4 because I felt like my dps and healer had to 'babysit' him. They had to religiously target the right mark, watch omen by the second, and, most importantly, pull back, or 'gimp themselves' on dps if they significantly outgeared the tank.

    I first learned to tank on my paladin. I really enjoyed it, partly because I could maintain control of the situation no matter how many stupid mistakes the rest of the group made.

    Now my warrior is more or less capable of doing the same thing - controlling fights, especially annoying trash pulls. No more LF Pally tank for ZA.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dots View Post
    Hopefully they won't nerf heroics much, the content is a lot more balanced this time around. TBC heroics were way too hard for the rewards.

    I don't entirely agree on the threat changes. Sure the scaling needed to be improved a lot, and it has. But being able to just AE everything because it is so easy gets boring very fast. That doesn't change in LK heroics or raids, which I think is what he meant with 'zerging'.
    I agree with this. While it may not be some peoples favorite part. I happen to find it fun and enjoyable to have to plan what classes I need for my group. What CC I need, and how to best approach a group of mobs. Marking, etc. But with 3.0 all of that is gone.

    Hell, I went into ZA with a group of nubs/pugs and got the 4th chest. very sad that the awesome bear mount is gone, but I would not want to win it that way :P

    Also, with the new changes the DPS thinks that every fight is tank & spank, and no one waits for even a moment to start unloading on my mobs.

    I definitely miss the challenge.

  15. #15
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    3.0.2 has been kind of a mixed bag for me. I like the new abilities, I like the DPS boost, and but it feels like Blizz went overboard with the TPS increase. Granted, I'm not in a T6 guild, and my threat hasn't been a limiting factor pre-3.0.2, but now it takes absolutely no skill or effort to put out a high level of TPS. I can literally faceroll the keyboard and hold aggro. In ZA the other night, I was sitting around 2-3 times the threat of the highest DPSer.

    For me, it's taken the challenge, and hence most of the fun, out of tanking. The easier they make tanking, the less satisfying it becomes for me. I'm really hoping that this is just a byproduct of everything being balanced for 80 and what I'm seeing now is just a scaling issue at 70, and not an ideology change to "ezmode" tanking.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
    3.0.2 has been kind of a mixed bag for me. I like the new abilities, I like the DPS boost, and but it feels like Blizz went overboard with the TPS increase. Granted, I'm not in a T6 guild, and my threat hasn't been a limiting factor pre-3.0.2, but now it takes absolutely no skill or effort to put out a high level of TPS. I can literally faceroll the keyboard and hold aggro. In ZA the other night, I was sitting around 2-3 times the threat of the highest DPSer.
    But where were you on the DPS meter?

    For me, it's taken the challenge, and hence most of the fun, out of tanking. The easier they make tanking, the less satisfying it becomes for me. I'm really hoping that this is just a byproduct of everything being balanced for 80 and what I'm seeing now is just a scaling issue at 70, and not an ideology change to "ezmode" tanking.
    That's because you're not looking towards the new challenge. You're just seeing "threat removed" and stopping there. DPS is now just as much a tank responsibility as it is for the rogues and warlocks. A good tank is defined not by their ability to survive and hold aggro, but by their ability to survive and put out competitive DPS.

    Yeah, you can just faceroll and probably hold aggro, but you're not doing your job.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    Pretty much what Xav said. I'm a bit bummed because there was always something to be said for being able to generate "the threat" and be known for it, and that's pretty much gone.
    I have to say I disagree here. Yes, being able to generate "the threat" when the higher your gear was the more mitigation you took in trade for threat stats was something, I was and am still praised for that. The thing to remember here and I'm sure you're not forgetting is there will always be a multitude of bad tanks, bad players in general. I think there is still a standard and there are and will still be those who blow the standard out of the water, produce more threat than the rest, and now thanks to the changes find themselves on the damage meters too. I got invited to a pug H MGT, and I took top damage over 2 hunters and a warlock. The end result was 35% of the total damage done was mine.
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  18. #18
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    Umm I'm a relative noob tank compared to alot of you guys. I only just cleared Kara this weekend. Since the patch, tanking is certainly less stressful and threat(at least for now) is off the table. I never had a chance to test on Beta or play around on the PTRs, but I can see why some people call it "EzMode". Last night in UB, I was pulling so fast and generating so much threat & dps our healer could barely keep up and my gear is not that great(T4, rep & some blues still). Cleared it in maybe 40mins, which for our group of alot of in-experience players was good. My girlfriend plays a hunter and was kind of getting pissed, not at me but with the notion of DPS being obsolete now. And CC being all but gone, as for all intents and purposes the tank is the CC.

    So I guess where I'm going with this, is while it is certainly fun for us now, from a DPS/CC players point of view are we kind of stealing their thunder so to speak? I guess I could see where it might be a little boring to them, as before they had more responsibility using CC to help with the pulls. Where as in my runs thus far they could'nt pull the mobs off of me if they tried.

    Just some thoughts I'm pondering on, I suspect it will be different come X-Pac & lvl 80.
    Last edited by dirt; 10-20-2008 at 07:45 AM. Reason: Fixed spelling mistakes

  19. #19
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    I'm with Dragaan and others.

    Every time they make something easier, by definition, there's one less thing to be good at.

  20. #20
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    Threat scaling pre-3.0 was broken. I'm sorry. No amount of itemization change on gear would change that. Even when I was able to wear my full threat set in tank gear, (capped hit, capped expertise, ~850 or something BV), it wouldn't match a full-bore-burn from our DPS. I know what I'm doing, yes, it's challenging. Yes, even getting to an 'acceptable' level of TPS with that gearing is hard and takes work. But it wasn't fixable by itemization alone.

    Besides putting on several pieces of actual DPS gear, and greatly, horrifically sacrificing your survivability, there was no way to hold aggro at an acceptable level. Acceptable in my book is at least a 10% lead on DPS, not a 1 or 2% lead.

    I'll say again that I think we're looking at very different raid situations; mine was one of nonstop pressure from the DPS classes from the second the mob is able to be attacked (ie, sheep broken->nukesplosion), or just retarded sustained DPS numbers from fully Sunwell geared characters.

    The threat scaling/lead right now is actually worse than what it will be at 80. I've raided extensively at 80 and at 70, and the thread lead I have at 80 is quite a lot more than what I have right now @ 70 with the same mechanics. The reason for that is the more powerful raid buffs at 80, and tank gear itemized from the get-go for threat, that is, heavy emphasis on strength on like every piece. And of course, the new ranks of tank abilities that also had threat in mind.

    It's also my belief that right now if you're trivially holding aggro over your dps, as much as 200-300% of your highest DPS'er, than they're simply not putting out the pressure and TPS that made threat scaling an issue to begin with. I have a lead right now, for sure, and there's a comfort zone, but I can't for sure faceroll to victory even now. There's just no way.
    Xav
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
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