Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

[tzeeth]

Hi there! first of all this is my first post :| i have been some time reading here tactics, talents etc... but not so much posting :P, btw i am spanish so sorry for my bad englisj :S. Okay, i am posting for asking you what do you think of blood tanks in 3.0.8? they have a good aoe with all the new changes, like pestilence ( no cd) or heartstrike ( cleave ), so do you think they will be viable? what do you think about something like this spec? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Thanks for reading and thanks in advance ^^hope to post more now!

[Merko]

Welcome aboard

With the upcoming changes to DK's Blood Tanks will more than be able to carry there own weight and will be contenders for the dk tanking crown. AOE will be much improved, mitigation in all specs will be better and Blood will have its own last stand talent.

Blood Tree -
***I'll let a Blood DK help you here ***

Frost Tree -
I see you want to pick up Lichborne, good move however by putting the 2 points in Black Ice (12%) you'll get more benefit than putting 2 points in Glacier Rot (10%)

Unholy Tree -
*** I'll let some unholy DKs help you here ***

Overall the spec seems pretty solid with a couple of small changes you are right on where you should be.

[tzeeth]

Hey hi merko and thx for the welcome ^^ , i see the changes you make into frost, its perfect to me, i will wait for some blood dk tanks and unholy ones to see what they have to say. Thanks for all
P.D: like i said sorry for my english i am trying to improve it but i am not native of it :P .

[Klap]

Hey all after spending the bast couple hours reading up on the changes to DK tanking...I'm pretty confident I want to give blood a shot. However I'm stuck between two builds :

(1)Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

(2)Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I don't know how useful Sudden Doom is when tanking, because I figure DC is just a dump of rune power (which well be taken over by Rune Strike due to 150% threat) and I honestly don't feel that I need the procs from sudden doom.

If my thinking is right on that, are where I put those 5 extra points in build 1 the best spot for them. Because along those same lines, I feel like DRW is a waste of a talent point for me because I'm focusing only on tanking.

[dracosveen]

Hi All,

Just joined cos it seems to me that this is the best thread around in terms of DK tanking etc. Bit of background. In pre-wotlk I was a druid tank all the way through BT up to Sunwell.

Now I dunno if I have some preconceptions of how tanking should work and I do know that all tanks are different, but I just can't seem to get my DK to work for me.

Sometimes I am frustrated to the point of crying. I have spent hours going through different specs and different theories and quite frankly I am tired of been past over for a pally or other tank.

Ok so maybe I can twist your rubber arms to help me out a bit cos I am really stuck right now at the point where I want to admit defeat and just spec DPS and put the DK in the cupboard and finish lvling my druid.

Oh and I apologise for the wall of text.

So questions. Since I am new to DKs and I listened to other ppl, my first tanking try was deep frost with dual weilding. To be honest, at the time, I thought that the mitigation talents (both physical and magic) were excellent.

1) Why are there no tanking specs with Dual Weilding? Am I missing something? Is hit rating a factor with DW? How much do I need?

I then found that in some cases it was very difficult to hold aoe aggro....even though I succesfully tanked heroic VH, my healer kept dying in heroic UK...go figure....this is when I started getting depressive. So I went searching on the web again for theory and specs and now I specced unholy...for the 4th time....cos stuff that looked good to me (Necrosis, Blood-caked Blade) is apparently not good.

My Frost build
I have cleared 10-man Naxx with the frost build twice now as OT. My main problem was getting aggro offa the pally MT. Other than that I thought it worked pretty well.

My Unholy Build
The only stuff I have tried with this build has been DPS, why u may ask, cos ppl prefer other tanks on my server.....I think there are alot of noob DKs running around. Either way....the only place I have tested this build is heroic HoS on the escort quest. I hold aggro on the steps very well but only cos I am not using all of my talents so that I have Death&Decay for each wave. I am thinking that that is not the right way to do it.

So any remarks, advice, constructive flaming would be highly appreciated.

Thanx in advance.....gonna go see about killing some ppl in an heroic

Cheers
Draco

Ok Update.....just tanked heroic Pinnacle in my current unholy spec. I think I basically owned. AoE tanked everything with a pally with 23k mana pool healing....only time we died was when a stupid mage ninja pulled a grp of 6 and I wasn;t ready. So I think I am happy so far. Still would like some feedback if possible.

[dreku]

Hello,

First of all I registered just for this so "Hi all" and great job with all the guides and theorycrafting on tankspot.com
Now I don't play a DK myself but a guildmate is and he's recently hit 80 (2 weeks or so) now got tanking gear from heroics and stuff next step are raids, 10 and then 25. He's not doing great though in heroics but the last time we took him in raid he was ok considering his gear. The biggest problem for him is threat and survivability but survivability i guess improves a lot with gear. I took some time to go through dk abilities and talents and came up with an alternative spec for raid tanking (mostly OT). He doesn't agree at all with my proposed spec so I thought it would be a great ideea to get some feedback from some more experienced dk tanks.

Before revising these 2 builds please consider that we need him for these situations:

• special massive spell user raidbosses (like Malygos is now), but not gimping his survivability/tps too much as we plan to use him for other situations too, as follows
• 25 man raids 3rd or 4th OT when needed.
• 10 man raids MT or OT depending group setup

His aoe tanking ability should be there but not a priority since we have paladin tanks which can easily tank trash, etc aoe groups, we need him mostly for survivability, like you would use a warrior. From what I know now about dk and from what I read it seems they can get quite some high miss chance on them and could possibly be even theoretically unhittable for a small period of time? except the 5% chance that is always possible.

His current spec

My proposed spec

I'm aware it all comes down to skill and experience, learning the class but supposing he is good enough, which spec would be best for his purpose? Of course it's very possible we're both wrong and then maybe you can suggest a better spec but please specify why then.

Thanks alot guys and if you reply it would be greatly appreciated.

[gorrash]

I will say that I have raided Unholy and Frost. I was barely in heroic gear when I main tanked Patchwerk and even still threat was not even an issue. The closest by a long shot was the OT. I suspect he may need to have a closer look at his rotation.


If you are making this guy the 3rd or 4th OT, let him spec for dps and he can throw on his tank gear and go frost presence when needed? Seems like a better use of his role. Not to mention he is going to get 3rd and 4th cracks at tank gear.

Have him respec for the magic fights and pick up AMZ or Acclimation.

[Merko]

So questions. Since I am new to DKs and I listened to other ppl, my first tanking try was deep frost with dual weilding. To be honest, at the time, I thought that the mitigation talents (both physical and magic) were excellent.

1) Why are there no tanking specs with Dual Weilding? Am I missing something? Is hit rating a factor with DW? How much do I need?

I then found that in some cases it was very difficult to hold aoe aggro....even though I succesfully tanked heroic VH, my healer kept dying in heroic UK...go figure....this is when I started getting depressive. So I went searching on the web again for theory and specs and now I specced unholy...for the 4th time....cos stuff that looked good to me (Necrosis, Blood-caked Blade) is apparently not good.

My Frost build
I have cleared 10-man Naxx with the frost build twice now as OT. My main problem was getting aggro offa the pally MT. Other than that I thought it worked pretty well.



So any remarks, advice, constructive flaming would be highly appreciated.

Thanx in advance.....gonna go see about killing some ppl in an heroic

Cheers
Draco

Ok Update.....just tanked heroic Pinnacle in my current unholy spec. I think I basically owned. AoE tanked everything with a pally with 23k mana pool healing....only time we died was when a stupid mage ninja pulled a grp of 6 and I wasn;t ready. So I think I am happy so far. Still would like some feedback if possible.

I'd love to have a look over the frost build (currently what i'm rocking)

Alright... the key to breaking this down will be assuming your going for a raid tank build. Now in 10 mans threat isn't too much of an issue however when your raid dps starts to push the 5k dps mark Death Knights are having threat issues and your build will have to be modified to support more threat building and to assume you have a WF totem...forcing you to eventually drop Imp IT

On the Tank DK Defensive: the basic 5/8/5 and your unbreakable armor + guille of gorefiend (got this) + Lichborne (optional and build dependent but i'd recommend)

Frost Tank DK Wasted Points (not enough bang for the buck IMO):
Virulence
Hungering Cold
Morbidity (Only get half the benefit as frost since your RP dumps do not include Death Coil)
Killing Machine (Low crit of a DK tanks auto attack + RNG (50%) makes gives this very low bang for the buck)...you will get more crits out of 1 point in death chill


but more than i can give you suggestions i'd suggest messing around with specs... beat the hell out of target dummy's... and practise in 5 mans

as far as DW deathknight tanking, the current gear levels do not support this as an optimized raiding spec however if you want to mess around for shits and giggles as long as you keep your group alive your doing your job...


Incoming... a fun week of wiping to Sartharion and his 3 friends...

[Merko]

Hello,

First of all I registered just for this so "Hi all" and great job with all the guides and theorycrafting on tankspot.com
Now I don't play a DK myself but a guildmate is and he's recently hit 80 (2 weeks or so) now got tanking gear from heroics and stuff next step are raids, 10 and then 25. He's not doing great though in heroics but the last time we took him in raid he was ok considering his gear. The biggest problem for him is threat and survivability but survivability i guess improves a lot with gear. I took some time to go through dk abilities and talents and came up with an alternative spec for raid tanking (mostly OT). He doesn't agree at all with my proposed spec so I thought it would be a great ideea to get some feedback from some more experienced dk tanks.

Before revising these 2 builds please consider that we need him for these situations:

• special massive spell user raidbosses (like Malygos is now), but not gimping his survivability/tps too much as we plan to use him for other situations too, as follows
• 25 man raids 3rd or 4th OT when needed.
• 10 man raids MT or OT depending group setup

His aoe tanking ability should be there but not a priority since we have paladin tanks which can easily tank trash, etc aoe groups, we need him mostly for survivability, like you would use a warrior. From what I know now about dk and from what I read it seems they can get quite some high miss chance on them and could possibly be even theoretically unhittable for a small period of time? except the 5% chance that is always possible.

His current spec

My proposed spec

I'm aware it all comes down to skill and experience, learning the class but supposing he is good enough, which spec would be best for his purpose? Of course it's very possible we're both wrong and then maybe you can suggest a better spec but please specify why then.

Thanks alot guys and if you reply it would be greatly appreciated.

Both specs are not geared towards max threat/raid utility/survivability

However-

threat should not be an issue at all until your dps are pushing 3k+ dps (even with a suboptimal spec...) tell your dk to get to work on the test dummy and do some class research

if party/raid survivability is a big issue then your tank needs to consider a roll change or needs much more practice in 5 mans before he/she is ready for raids

(I'm not sure how serious of raiding guild you guild is so i'm being particularly careful with my words)

By looking at the specs and situation i am guessing the person you are talking about has been a dps or healer before swapping to the tank. At this point if they are struggling in a 5 man they are probably doing something very wrong and the best thing they can do is some class research. btw... be very very careful before suggesting specs to a class you yourself don't play (if you and them are both a little bit wrong in your specs a merged spec could end up horrible)

give this spec a try
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(My current spec has modified this to assume for a enhancement shaman dropping WF for max threat)

simple rotation
IT,PS,BS,BS,OB/HB

macro's

macro runic strike to everything
/cast rune strike
/cast ....


macro deathchill to howling blast
/use deathchill
/cast howling blast (rank...)
/cast rune strike

I'd recommend macro'ing deathchill in the same way to obliterate since with the upcoming glyph changes and fights like sapphiron you will benefit more from a crit obliterate

[Satorri]

Sooooo many people to respond to.

Klap, Sudden Doom is great threat. It's free crit DC's. With Morbidity my DC's are big hurt, an automatic crit and a long range means you can put this threat wherever you want it, though it is single threat. I love Rune Strike and I use it the moment its up thanks to macro's, but it doesn't sink all the RP I generate. The upshot is that I drop FS/DC often enough. It's not a waste, to be sure. And I agree on DRW, that along with Gargoyle aren't worth your talents as a tank, it's pure non-threat dps, which always has its value but for the sake of tanking there are plenty of talents that will help more.

Draco, Draco, Draco, where to begin. There aren't a lot of specifics about what you're doing. The first thing that jumps out, I'd highly recommend taking dual wielding as a stepping stone to something better. If you want to make that work for serious raid tanking it takes a lot of considerations, particularly in terms of expertise and careful weapon selection. There are some really great 2-handers that are LOADED up with Str/Stam that will get you more health than 2 tanking weapons, they'll also get you a decent helping of avoidance. This has nothing to do with your threat ability though.

As a bear aoe threat for you was a simple matter of swiping (and maybe some tab targetting) right? You also had an aoe taunt when things got loose. As a DK there are 2 levels of aoe tanking to recognize:
1.) foundation aggro to protect the healer. All you need to keep aggro of adds off the healer is actually make some regular contact or a big foundation burst. Healing aggro can be big, but unless the healer has to spam big heals on you, they shouldn't have terribly threat on your off-targets.
2.) AoE threat. Right now one of the biggest challenges to a DK is maintaining threat against a full-on AoE nuke down. I have an arms warrior who can put 3k dps on every target in range for a good 10 sec. That's a lot to overcome, and side hits won't do it. As Unholy, the job is easiest. Stack and spread your diseases, drop DnD, and get UB up, and you should have some serious aoe threat of everything in range, and making sure your active target takes your straight hits should make it easier to keep the pull under wraps. Frost is the next best. Your Howling Blast is your standby aoe threat, and you want to use it smartly. I always take Deathchill in my tanking build now since I can hit a 5-6k HB at the front of the fight and get a huge head start. I avoid Killing Machine since I tested it and managed to go whole fights without it ever proc'ing once. Dual wielding can make it slightly more common, but if you're doing it with tanking weapons your crit chance will be about as low as possible. With Frost, you must have Frost Fever up always, and on everyone, but Blood Plague helps bring up your baseline threat on everything as each disease ticks for 300+ even without the bonuses from Unholy. This means you need to train your dps to ease in as you stack diseases and spread them. Once the big white/blue flash goes, then they know its time to start hammering. Blood has the hardest sell on AoE threat. I never take blood without Morbidity, partly because harder DC's are good threat, but also to ensure you can use your DnD constantly. Pre-3.0.8 I don't trust my Blood spec to stand up to full on aoe, though with a HEAVY amount of tabbing you can still hold stuff weakly. Post 3.0.8 I think it'll be a little easier with a 60% Pest damage buff and tastey Heart Strike cleaves, but it's just not Blood's strength.

There are certain talents that I leave off of tanking builds more often than not, here are some examples and my rationale:
Killing Machine = as I said above, with a 2-hander in tanking gear, you may never see it proc, with dual wielding, you may actually end up with even less crit chance.

Blood-caked Blade = the extra swings are nice, not bad threat, but for unholy you're better suited focusing on the threat from your magic effects (unless you're trying to make an unholy single target threat build), and if you're not unholy this move is weaker still for lack of the third disease. Same reason I don't take Necrosis, damage buff though it may be it's melee and single target only.

Vendetta = the applications where you might want this most don't happen often in a raid or group situation, others will get your killing blows.

Gargoyle/Dancing Rune Weapon = as I said above, these count as their own independent creatures, like pets, and so they do good damage but generate threat for themselves, not you. Leave the pure dps to the dps section, that's why you bring them.

Merciless Combat = this late in the fight if you're still worried about threat you need to rethink other things, because that means you're being ridden hard by the dps. And again, though your dps may not be non-existent, leave the powering out of boss enrages to dps.

Wandering Plague = breaks my heart, but my lack of crit compels me to use these points elsewhere for better effect.

I have to say, having tanked as bear, warrior, pally, and DK, if you want to be a strong DK tank it will take more busy work than any other tanking class. You need to be MORE on top of the situation, more aware of your threat on all the targets, more loose with your moves. You need to be making smart choices about what ability to use next, rather than following a blind rotation. In every situation there is a move that will suit you best for some purpose and another that will offer different value. You need to be choosing the move that suits your situation and needs better. Health full? Scourge Strike. Health not full? Death Strike! Working with a warrior tank? Let him focus on the main target and focus on aoe threat. Working with a druid tank who's being surrounded by funky hitboxes? Grab the people who're behind him. You get the idea.

Overall, Draco, I think as you become more familiar with the moves, and more used to tanking with the class, you'll find the old comfort you used to have. Remember, you're the tank, if you're stressed you lose attentiveness and things get worse, and when you stress, your group stresses. Trust, it'll come.

For Dreku, it's good to have pervue as a raid leader and direct people where and how you need them, but it's also very important that you recognize your raiders' class/spec/style for what they're good at and what they're weak at and place them to best effect. Your tank needs to be refining his own spec, adjusting his play style, and learning to be a better tank. Sadly, giving people a spec with a DK is almost as bad as giving a prot warrior a prot pally and saying "here, this will work better." He needs to make the choices and adjust his play style to his spec. If he isn't learning, isn't adjusting, he's a liability to a raid anyway. His spec isn't terribly, though it is very frosty. He is missing out on some nice reliable support by being too much in one tree. There are only 2 abilities that I'd prune out as pretty well wasted on a tank: Endless Winter and Hungering Cold (sadly. It's a fun and handy talent when things are bad or if you want to set up big burst combos, but it is hard to work in and it can be aggravating if things are spread out. HC isn't hard and fast though since I'm sure you could find ways to use it to good effect).

For your spec, I think Spell Deflection isn't quite that worth it for striving talent points in. Dark Conviction doesn't quite benefit the spec either since you have no mechanics that really benefit off of crit, this is a better talent for dps or for cooperation with talents like Killing Machine, Bloody Vengeance, and Wandering Plague. Unholy Command sounds like a good talent, but it's a lot like improved taunt for the old prot tree used to be. It's nice if you need it, but talenting for the worst case scenario of needing to be constantly pulling people back in is like putting a bandaid on a bullet hole, you've got bigger problems. The loss of Tundra Stalker is a big threat loss for a Frost build, so unless you have to I wouldn't lose that. I also see you added Dual Wielding, and I wonder why. Dual wielding should be a very carefully taken undertaking, and I wouldn't do it without Tundra Stalker for the added expertise. Also, see my comments on Merciless Combat above.

As a raid leader, if you want to know how best to use the DK's in your raid, you want to recognize what they offer that other tanks do not:
1.) Anti-magic Zone and Acclimation, in deep Unholy and Frost respectively, are spell damage protection that the DK can offer without being the up front tank. This is protection they can provide while dpsing/off-tanking. It's a big boon to your raid, more than you may think.

2.) Death Knights are the one sort of tank that never has to be hit, ever, to do their job. Bears, Warriors, and Pallies all need to be taking swings. They need to be hit to generate rage or take heals for mana, or they need to be dodge/parry/blocking to generate rage/mana if you can use those mechanics. Death Knights get no benefit at all from being hit. So what does that mean? That means that A.) bubble them! A disc priest on a DK tank is a really amazing thing to see. B.) they're the best second threat you could ask for. A warrior or pally's threat when they're not getting hit can drop by up to 15-20% in most situations, or have a shorter span, but your DK can do 100% of his potential for however long the fight goes on. There is no such thing as rage starvation or running out of mana. I'm not saying this is a problem for the other tanks, but it's not even a consideration as a DK.

3.) It may not seem as clear now, but with 3.0.8 DK's will be noticeably the best tanks/damage sinks against magic damage. I like to always point out, this doesn't just mean caster bosses, this means ANY damage, at all, that is not physical, they can survive better than any other. With 3.0.8 all DK's get 15% off the top damage ignore for magic damage, 20% with talents. They have a tool, Anti-magic shell, that will eat 75% of magic damage (100% with talents) taken for 5 seconds once every minute (45 second after 3.0.8, 48 sec with current talents, 33 sec with post-patch talents). A smart Unholy tank can taunt and take a full on blast of any size and ignore it, allowing the tank to taunt the mob back. There are some strong possibilities.

4.) Before dual specs, which may still be a while off, I've done better dps in my tank spec than any of my tank companions. In general DK's do very good dps, if you have one as a tank who won't be used as a tank, he can offer a lot in a dps gear set, just hammering away.

Hopefully that gives you some insight. I have been a raid leader myself for a good long time, I would suggest your best tac with your DK is to offer him some comments on areas where he does well and needs improvement and encourage him to adjust his spec and play style to improve it himself, rather than trying to tell him how to do better, or how to spec. If he makes the choices carefully and intentionally he'll know how to use it better.

[Satorri]

Merk, you mean Deathchill?

And are you having trouble with Sarth? Maybe I can help?

[Merko]

..yes i meant deathchill


Yeah we're going for the kill with all 3 dragons up this week... with a good lust and everybody on point getting that first dragon down quick is going to be the key for us... after that positioning and controlled chaos. I'm probably going to respec unholy and be add control (as Raid Lead this will allow me to focus on the raid as a whole not just on MTing a dragon)...

I'm thinking a AMZ unholy build should help, as well as UB helping with add pick and a 15 second cd on DnD...

[Satorri]

Oh, yeah, Unholy will suit you very well on that fight. I love it for run-by pickups. UB is fun for snagging stuff on the way by. Very nice aoe for the threat and it doesn't suck for the damage either.

Good luck! I haven't dared to take him down with 3 dragons yet, please update when you do it, I'd love to hear what works for you guys.

[Urrick]

Good luck Merko. Going for a first time 10 man kill this week myself. Yes I know everyone has already done this, but we are a pretty causal group so its our first time stepping into the fight.

[Cadran]

What is so good about Acclimation? I would be hesitant to put a talent pt that gave a flat 18 resist let alone a chance to stack up some resist.

[Merko]

acclimation is amazing... there is so much magic damage tossed around in these raids it is pretty much constantly up, i take less damage than our healers MTing 25 man Sapphiron with no FR gear on.

[Satorri]

Cadran, I'm not sure you understand the mechanics of Acclimation. It doesn't give you 18 resistance per stack for one though that may have just been your example.

The talent doesn't tell how much it actually gives you. The way it works is this. Each time you get hit by magic damage (my refrain, not just "spells" but anything that is not physical damage) you get a buff that increases your resistance to that school of magic by 50 for 18 seconds. Each time you get hit by it your resistance goes up another 50, up to 3 stacks. Combine this with Frost Aura, in a fight like Sapphiron (frost damage constantly if you're tanking) and you're looking at 220 frost resist with no resistance gear, no druid buff, and no pally aura, for most of the fight.

The buff is also independent and reactive to every school, so if you get hit by nature damage and shadow damage in the same fight you'll see two separate buffs growing with each hit.

Like Merk said, it can be really silly useful in any fight where you're taking repeat magic damage, though admittedly in fights where the spell damage is changing or infrequent, it won't stay stacked as reliably.

What I'm more impressed with is that you can tank Sapph as frost. Last time I did it was on the beta, but she was immune to frost damage (and frost fever) at the time. Is that still the case, and if so what's your rotation to keep threat?

[Shazlonium]

Hello again everyone...

First of all, I'd like to wish everyone a merry x-mas and happy new year even tho its still a bit early

Second, I'm currently sitting at lvl 77, haven't had the time to play much this week cuz I'm just bombarded with things to do at work that i have to take it back home with me...but here's the build I'm currently sitting at 13/53/2

By 80, i should have maxed out the 5 in Unholy...

Now my question will follow after i have stated a few things...

1- i know HC is only useful situationally, so im willing to replace that talent point anywhere else...

2- Death Rune Mastery - i absolutely love have Death Runes since it gives me a more dynamic style of playing allowing me to be able to freely choose what ability to use depending on the situation...which i feel is the key to DK-Tanking unlike following a set rotation...but should i consider something else? i need a lot of convincing on removing these point and allocating them

3- Merciless Combat - quite iffy about this one...12% increased dmg when the target is below 35% health - does it help with threat management? is it useless? some feedback on this is highly appreciated...

and now for the main question...Frost Aura + Acclimation...amazing on paper...but are they really worth removing points from Death Rune Mastery & Merciless combat?

I need some major convincing if I'm to do so...

P.S...my guild is loving my tanking methods and ability...our healer/s is/are always safe when I'm tanking with my current spec. Threat is rarely an issue with me...
Many times our dps were wiped out due to them starting when i wasn't ready...yet the healer and I were able to take down the boss cuz i kept him safe...i always put our healer as my main priority...if i keep him safe...then i know i will keep on rocking...and vice versa with him...its a great agreement that we have :P

[dracosveen]

Hellos and thanx for all the replies,

Firstly - Sapph is not immune no more.....I never played PTR or Beta but I was IT'ing her all night last night.....eventually got her down.

What was very nice was that even though I was OT for the Naxx run I was the least healed person in Sapph. I was using Bone Shield all the time and even out DPS'ed our rogue once or twice......but I don;t think he knows how to play

Anyway. So I am still basically testing my Unholy spec. But from what I can see from the replies it seems that Frost may be the better way to go?

Lemme see if I can put all my thoughts in order here.

1) I think it was Satorri that refered to testing speccs on the dummies. Well for me testing specs on the dummies only works for looking at DPS (i use recount) and then that does not seem reliable. When I first specced unholy I was doing 1.3k dps in tank gear and presence and 2k dps in dps gear and presence. Come to an instance and raid and most times I am below the tank. Dunno maybe I am doing something wrong. I have as yet not been able to test TPS on dummies. Can this be done? Pls pls tell if so. I go looking for 80 elites in Crystalforest to check TPS.....which according to Omen3 is around 2.6k - 3k....single target I guess. So any ideas on this would be great. I have been looking for a threat based meter or logger like Recount is for DPS but so have found nothing.

2) Yesterday after I did my original post I spent the whole day in heroics and raids (archavon, naxx, obsidian). I was constantly checking recount to see what was happening. Now here is the kicker. I am DWeilding right now as the 1handers have def rating on them and I don't wanna drop below 540. As I understand it, a DK's threat comes from applying and spreading diseases. Recount says that my most dmg is coming from melee, closest below that is IT by about 10%. Is this normal.....shouldn't it be the other way around?

3) In alot of the posts I see peeps talking about not putting points in a specific talent as it does not generate threat etc. How do u know what generates threat and what does not? Is there some easy way to calculate this or something?

4) In terms of DWeilding. I didn't see anything about an answer to my hit rating question. My guildies have been throwing around some figures that I should be looking at but tbh....they seem pretty high. Any ideas? Either way I am gonna stay DWeilding until I can safely replace the 50 def rating I am getting from the weps. That is just 2 much to loose imho.

5) I have seen quite a few DK tanks with 5/5 Bladed Armor. Opinions?

Overall I got some useful data from this thread and the replies so far. So much so that I am going to respec again. I'll be back to tell u how it goes.

Thanx alot
Draco

[dreku]

Hello guys,

Thank you so very much for your objective opinnions, it really helped me decide what to do next.

I only made a different spec "for" him not to necessarily use it but merely to have a different point of view from where to start a discussion. As I never played DK I'm in no position to tell him what to do, but starting from 2 different points of view and discussing about it we can get to some kind of an agreement of what we need him to do and how he can accomplish that.
threat issue - in 25 man about 5 ppl go up to 3k+ dps regularly and on some bosses where threat still counts (not Loatheb but f.ex. Patchwerk) we hit 5k dps. Again this is not a problem for him as he is there only to soak some hatefull strikes. But the problem occurs in 10 man raids where we really need him. Example last night 10 man Naxx run:

- the DK is there to MT the bosses and we had a good geared druid to trash tank aoe and take the hard hits on some boss fights
- during trash cleaning the druid just kept going and we mostly aoe everything and the DK was supposed to pick up the loose mobs right? Well most of the times we had to tell him to pick them faster and even then it took him a good 5 seconds to take them off the healers. I could understand why healers were kinda frustrated that they had to heal the raid and themselves as they were sometimes tanking 1 or 2 mobs.
- Loatheb, we all watched our aggro specially in the beginning till we got a spore so we can go crazy but, 2-3 seconds in the fight the DK MT loses aggro to ... the hunter pet (cat). He couldn't get it back for ~3 seconds until the pet died. After that all went fine.
There's more small examples when he kinda failed, sorry to be so harsh but I think that's the right word, but anyway I only mentioned the things that really got me thinking.

@Merko - the DK in question played a resto druid before so you are right he was a healer :> Also you don't need to be carefull with your words, we're not a top guild and I don't mind what language you use as long as your intent is to help with constructive comments.
Problem is, not being a hardcore guild and half of us being good friends we want to be friendly with everyone that join us so that's why I am trying mostly to help him out but, when several times in a row I have to do research for him and give him links only to ask him couple of days later "did you check it out?" "nah didn't had time, but i'm gonna look at it now" ...
I think the problem is pretty simple now, it's all about priority and managing it. He's a nice guy, it's nice to talk shit with him and everyone else but, when it comes to playing this simply can't work.

@Satorri - your comments gave me some serious insight indeed in the DK class. From what I read around and from what you say, DK's can be a really awesome tanking class if played right, and I know it doesn't matter much how you spec as long as you keep important talents in and adjust the spec to your way of playing.

Conclusion
Since holidays are here and we're all slacking in these times (at least my guild is) I'm gonna give him this time to figure out how to improve and if after the holidays he stil hasn't improved there's nothing more to do but part ways I guess, it's frustrating to see how well are some dk players doing and then play with him.
Note: this is not a shame post or anything he should feel bad about I really like the guy but he's just not good enough for our style of gaming and such if he can't improve I think it's the best solution to play with some ppl that are closer to his gaming style.

Again, thank you for your comments, without them I would've known some facts so fast about the death knight class.