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Thread: Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

  1. #701
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    It is classic psychology. The equivalent of baboons puffing up their chest to appear bigger, stronger, and more formidable males in the tribe when jockeying for position and mates.

    Ask the average 18-26 yr old how many people they've had intimate relationships with. The typical male will inflate their number 1.5 to 3 times, while the typical female will reduce their number by a similar factor. Gross generalizations, but such it is.

    Not everyone does it though, only people who have something to prove or think they have something to gain, respect usually being the sought prize.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #702
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    Thanks for the tips man. Ya im going stam pretty hard.

    As for people bullshitting about tps, its just like dps bs'rs.

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandwagon View Post
    Thanks for the tips man. Ya im going stam pretty hard.

    As for people bullshitting about tps, its just like dps bs'rs.
    I've found it worse.
    DPS you can reliably measure, generally, with raid tools at the end of a fight.
    TPS requires a bit more work, thusly people use the numbers they see on Omen.

    "I DO LIKE 8000 TPS DATS WUT OMEN NORMALLY SAY LOLZ"

  4. #704
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    Numbers from Omen aren't valueless, it's just like healing meters, it rarely tells the whole story and what you don't see has a lot of impact.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #705
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    So, on my spare time I play with a bunch of friends and one of these friends is a Death Knight tank. Well on Friday he came into the raid with the weirdest effing tanking spec I have ever seen:

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    Now, the more I look at it..the more this idea has merits. Now some of you are going to go..what the hell. My first reaction was the same but I started looking at this and it's an interesting combination.

    1) He goes down Blood and gets threat increasing statistics as well as health increasing statistics which helps with EH in the long run. He has Mark of Blood as well to help out with incoming damage. Death Rune Mastery is used to make your Obliterate into Death Runes. My first reaction was well, why would you do that? You're using Obliterate in a rotation. But his idea is sound: You can use those Death Runes to activate skills that normally would require you to use another set of rune. Unbreakable Armor for one, and Mark of Blood for another. Two runes that could take one of your Death Rune sets. In this manner, you'll always have Death Runes in your rotations for those 'OH @*$!' moments. You also get Bloody Strikes to help out with Blood Boil, which becomes your main source of AoE damage included with D&D which is now glyphed and brought down to 15 seconds.

    2) Frost picks up the necessary tanking talents but only goes to get Imp Frost Aura for the reduced damage. Frost Strike is not placed in here as the RP dump in the build is apparently Death Coil still. It makes for a very weak Death Coil, in my view, and that'd be one of the weaker arguments for the build. Not picking up Impurity or other things and only relying on Morbidity to increase it's damage makes Death Coil a rather lame duck. However let's be honest here: Most of the time your RP will be used for Rune Strike, a physical damage dealing attack. Mounting up the physical damage will help your Rune Strikes, and if you wanna throw a Death Coil in there, you can if you so choose for a small extra amount of threat. Death Coil in this becomes near obsolete. The lack of Killing Machine is solely on the fact that the only attack you really use for KM is Icy Touch and as such, making an extra IT crit isn't as widely needed as a core skill. This removes the need for KM and focuses on making you hit faster and buffing your group with the haste buff. The lack of Chill of the Grave can be noticed in your RP generation however you're not really wanting too much RP in this build and moreso are focusing to have just enough RP to hit Rune Strike.

    3) The only noteworthy thing in Unholy is Morbidity, which makes your D&D be your AoE choice. However both the D&D and any magic attack this build has is severely weakened and not really seen as great damage. This is offset however by the Glyph as well as having Bloody Strikes to really push off damage in the AoE Department. You'd use a combination of BBs and D&Ds to keep your AoE threat.

    The thing I post here is that no matter what kind of cookie cutter builds we look at, there's always something new and innoventive that the class could bring up. By no means is this a great spec, but it can work and that's what is great about the class. I wouldn't personally support this build but it'd be interesting to hear other people's reaction.

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  6. #706
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    Sadly, I cannot actually look at it, WoWhead's talent calculator seems to be down this morning. I will amend this when I can actually look the spec over.

    From the sounds of it, it is like the specs early on I used to see all the time from new tanks. When they looked at 3 tanking trees, coming from a prot spec where you have one tree and getting every survival talent is what makes you a viable tank, they see the tanking CDs early in each tree, and late, and want them all so they dip into every tree to try and get as many survival talents as they can. The problem back then, of course, was 2-fold:

    1.) You can get plenty of survival, provided you go deep enough to get one of the big 3 tanking CDs. If you don't get one of the big 3 then you kind of feel at the mercy of the situation, sooner or later something big and nasty crops up and you die because you have no way to bump your survivability state to survive it.

    2.) In order to get all the survival talents they fail to really play into the central theme of any single tree and their threat suffers because of it. Today it is even more true than it used to be. Each tree is built around powerful synergies. There are compounding bonuses the run through the tree, but there is usually a major element(s) late in the tree that really bring those together (Heart Strike and now Imp DS for Blood, Tundra Stalker and now HB for Frost, Scourge Strike and Ebon Plague for Unholy).

    I used a hybrid Blood/Frost build when I first started serious tanking at 80. Did it work? Of course, I was very hardy, but my threat was weak, and eventually I made the switches I did to support my group (I had some serious burners relative to us all being in blues at the time) so I could actually hold my tanking targets (survival means nothing if you don't hold their attention).

    In the world of min/maxing and high level unforgiving raiding, nitpicking over stat points and talents has a place, though I think it is still made a somewhat bigger deal than it actually is. In most of the game though, less than ideal still has all the needed tools to succeed, and I'm a firm believer that it is better to play it your way and enjoy it than to follow someone else's concept of what the 'best' is. The evolution to a personal spec, done smartly and conscientiously is far more powerful for tanking skill than just reading the "acceptable specs" from some forum where a tree is presented without rationale for choices.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #707
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    It gives up the very best threat and survival talents at the benefit of virtually nothing.

  8. #708
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    In looking at it I see what I was talking about above, it reaches for all of the tastiest looking passive tanking values but severely gimps the convenience and synergies.

    For survival it takes:
    +Stam and a couple of heals from Blood
    Frigid Dreadplate and Imp Frost Pres for Frost's passive survival
    The standard 5/5/5 for baseline survivability

    I suspect he holds up just fine to a beating. Not terribly exciting, not much to use against them but a short duration IBF and Unbreakable Armor. If he stacks on plenty of health and armor he probably would make fine use of the abilities he has.

    Threat on the other hand is a little awkward.

    He has Annihilation so he can use Oblit freely, but the only buffs for it are Rime (which is getting half wasted as he can't use procs) and 2h Spec. He can use Deathchill to get a big first hit, but it seems somehow wasted on that compared to a deep frost knight with FS or HB.

    He has more crit and more damage for IT from Imp IT and Black Ice, but no Glacier Rot or Tundra Stalker to really make it hit harder.

    He has some buffing to BS from Bloody Strikes, but none of the value from BotN. In the same vein he can convert FU pairs to death runes, but since OB is his one real standout strike for FU's, they won't have quite the same value, whereas B runes will never be available for that (see BS buffing). At least his BB's will hit slightly harder for aoe.

    He has CotG to get more RP, RPM to be able to store more up, but nothing good to use it on. DC is buffed from Black Ice and Morbidity, but it still won't be a game-winning value, far inferior to a little deeper into the Frost tree with FS.

    In short, he misses the heavy threat values from deep Blood, he misses the heavy threat values from deep Frost. He doesn't have their high level abilities for covering what the first half of the tree is weak with. I imagine he could glyph DnD and it would be moderate threat, but that seems somewhat uninteresting to rest on.

    It's a personal spec to be sure, but I'd be surprised if he could put it up against a hard hitting dps section, even at the same gear level. I'm sure it's fine for a personal raid group, especially when your dps are friends who are smart with watching their threat.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  9. #709
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    The build strikes me as a variation on the Sarth 3D tanks we used to see (Example). Great mitigation, but as Satorri pointed out, poorer threat.

    A side consequence is in any situation where DPS is an issue, he's both limiting the DPS with a lower threat cap, but also not able to contribute as effectively. IMO, you must spend 50 points into a tree to give yourself one of the major damage increasing talents (Blood Gorged, Tundra Stalker or Rage of Riverdare) to justify using a particular tree. I feel you can give TS/RoR credit for ~14% threat increase from the damage bonus, and likely a similar threat bonus to BG.

  10. #710
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    My current build is The World of Warcraft Armory

    Currently im maintank for all encounters in 25 man ulduar and find this spec to be outstanding for both threat and survivability.


    I wasn't able to find anything on it when searching as i don't actually know what the term would be called, but lately i've been experimenting with a custom rotation utilizing the DS Glyph. Now understandably capping your RP has negative results, but using my FU combo when near capped RP yields much higher DS dmg which would translate into a buttload more threat. With my current gear setup i find that most of my RP is used on Rune Strikes, and as such the globals spent on what would be Death Coils are placeholder globals for Cd's such as AMS or IBF when needed. I still do use DC, but i generally find that im able to RS often enough to burn thru my RP almost solely RSing keeping it from being completely capped. the DS and RS glyph combo means that when i have high RP, DS gains benefit, and when i have low RP because its been spent on RS i also gain benefit, the VB glyph is just a personal fave of mine.

    Of course being a Blood DK snap threat is a bit of an issue, however over the course of a decent length fight my threat greatly exceeds any Paladin tank or any tank for that matter, that i've come across, many of them equally geared and skilled. I dont have any WWS parses handy at the moment, however with several TPS addons, i'm generally sitting at around 8-9k TPS constant on most encounters, with my TPS reaching up to 10.9k over the duration of our last XT HM kill (in 10 man) and im not even near hit cap.

    My apologies if i've covered anything that has been already, I do not beleive in strict rotations per se, I played a rogue in BC and reached up to 2700 DPS on Teron pre 3.0 with only an OH Warglaive and 6/8 t6. I beleive that im quite a capable player if thats any indication of my skill level.

    Would love to hear feedback from other Blood DK's regarding this once they've tried it out. =)
    Last edited by Indifference; 07-07-2009 at 02:25 PM.

  11. #711
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    Technically speaking, the current DS glyph only benefits your damage up to 25 RP. Once you're there any excess does nothing more. Personally, for that reason, I try to only dump DC's when I have more than 75 RP (since that will keep me reasonably above 25, even if I happen to fire an RS at the same time).


    And as a side note, it seems to be terribly popular these days for Blood tanks to take Scent of Blood, I'm terribly curious why. Many of the ones I've spoken to about it think 1 or 2 points is necessary so they can always RS. I've never had it and never wanted for RP for a RS. All it translates into is more DC's, which seems like a pretty deficient value (unless you buff your DC way up, which comes at other far more costly changes).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #712
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    S'because Blood is so lackluster in the RP department Satorri. With SoB, it allows a bit of freeway to actually throw a DC from time to time.

    I found in Blood as a DPS that you really don't get much RP through your rotations, thus why I have never been a fan of the 51/2/18 build. The RP without Tier 7 4pc makes for a really tight rotation with very little RP to play with.

    When I tanked with Blood, I never really 'noticed' the problem because I had more things to deal with than notice my RP dump being low, however to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few times I really was out of RP. To be honest, taking the talent really doesn't hurt you that much, and can't possibly be too bad anyway.

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  13. #713
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    No, definitely not a hurt, and not a wasted value. I just always felt it was a deficient value.

    Blood doesn't have other big RP winners (a la CotG and Dirge) but it does tend to use a lot more single rune spends which really racks up points. I don't DC dump often, but I'm never at a loss for RP when a blackout comes around, that's probably why, having never tasted that green grass. =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #714
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    Won't hurt to be honest on that point.

    You'd be able to throw out more DCs, and also if you decide to go and get Runic Power Mastery, you'd have more RP to work with and it just links up together really nicely.

    To be honest, the skill is to help out where Dirge and Chill of the Grave help Frost and Unholy. It just works on another mechanic skill. I wouldn't call it a deficient valued talent but more that the talent needed to be reworked and with 3.2, You'll definitely want to get Scent of Blood with the extra RP. It just helps Blood a bit better.

    ...not really for DPS but yanno, you tank fellows anyway.

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  15. #715
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    See that's what I mean, it's not at all needed as a tank, it'd be more valuable for squeezing out dps, I would think.

    Bear with me. As Blood, I usually use, per pair of rune sets, 2 double rune spends, and 8 single rune spends. That's 110 RP per 20 sec, or about 5.5 RP per second. In that 20 second window I have 3 open GCD's if I don't use Blood Tap (though I do), and if I don't pop another ability off the runes (which I do as well). In that time I will also get on average about 2 Rune Strikes (~27% turnover, accounting for haste which I always have from my beloved Enhancement Shaman), which will knock 40 RP off that. So we'll say 70 RP per 20 seconds, after RS's. In order for me to pick up 1 more DC without losing my DS buff, Scent of Blood would need to generate 40 RP more in that same 20 second window. After a dodge/parry/get hit I have a 15% chance to get 5 RP from the next 1 swing per point. That means since I dodge/parry/get hit ~91% of the incoming strikes that gives me a ~14% chance per swing to get 5 RP per point. If the boss swings at 2 second intervals (to be generous), that will proc 1.4 times per 20 sec interval. We'll average that out to 7 RP per 20 seconds, so 3 points would still only get me 21 RP per 20 seconds in the best of cases. Still, if we make that a longer average, an additional DC is about 1800 dmg (crit adjusted average). In theory with 3 points invested I could get that extra DC once every 4 rune sets (40 seconds), so that works out to 45 dps, or a 1.5% increase in tps for 3 points, 0.5% per point. It's something, when it gets used, but I wouldn't call that a particularly strong spend of talent points. I suppose to really measure you'd have to ask what you can get instead.

    Just to pick a couple blindly to compare (I'll just scale off my numbers):
    Black Ice would be 2% more on diseases, ITs, BBs, DnD, and DCs = 0.6% incr/pt
    Necrosis (+4% to melee and RS damage) = 1.9% incr/pt
    Might of Mograine = 1.4% incr/pt

    Or, Sudden Doom has a 5% chance per point to add a DC to an HS with no GCD required. From my set that'd be 7 HS's per 20 seconds, or 0.353 procs per 20 sec per point adding that 1800 hit. That's 32 dps, or a 0.5% tps incr/pt, same as Scent of Blood but without requiring the GCD, or the tank to pull the trigger.

    So, finally, some numbers to back my instinct about Blood's lackluster relationship with Scent of Blood.

    I don't think it's completely wasted, but I think there are several better options that many Blood tanks may not have, if you're going strictly by the numbers game. Maybe folks just like it better for the ability to add more range damage/threat here and there (kiting Ignis? Getting some last digs at Razorscale as she takes off? Helping stack the fire debuff on Hodir?).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #716
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    I suppose that does make sense in the long run, although you hurt my head with your silly numbers.

    I dunno, I have a way to usually grab Scent of Blood without having to worry about it. I suppose it's because I don't get Imp Rune Tap...I find it slightly excessive healing in a situation where I should not have to worry about giving myself more healing. Yes, this is a little selfish of me to say that, but I'm Death Striking often enough to give me 15% of my health back. That should be ample help to the healers to keep me up. If not, I rotate to be a heavy DS rotation used and that usually helps out enough. To me, your views of SoB are about the same as my views on Imp Rune Tap: They're circumstancial and at best a utility tool to be used at certain points.

    With 3.2's change to it though, every 10 per point, this will make it even more potent and I wouldn't see why you wouldn't at least put some points in it for the RP. But that's for 3.2 to come around.

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  17. #717
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    For Blood, I won't be going after more RP, that's a personal choice, purely. =) As is Imp Rune Tap, on one hand it is usually only about 15-20% of my heals, next to DS which is 65-75%, though at the same time I average usually only 20% overhealing on Rune Tap, while it's 60-66% on Death Strike. It's definitely not needed, in fact none of the healing from Blood is *needed*, but that I can add that value is pretty significant. Most people don't realize Rune Tap is off the GCD, so when my health dips I can always hit it directly the second my UI warns me my health is at or below 40%. It's an honest life-saver, and when I dabbled in Frost this week, that was actually the thing I missed most.

    Different strokes. The beauty of the class, and within each spec is that there IS room to do it your own way. Edgewalker loves DC, he glyphs and talents all the way for it, and uses it well I'm sure. It's very low on my priorities, only slipped in when I have some extra RP and a spare moment. We both tank the same content with equal ease. That to me is a well-crafted game!
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #718
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    well one could sit down and debate if it truly is a 'well-crafted' game to be honest because some things they've done with this game have had me go ...wtf.

    However truth be told, I think they did very well with the Death Knight class. Now they need to align the 9 other classes the same way!

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  19. #719
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    At the risk of digression, what about the game do you feel is out of whack?


    hmm, maybe we should take this to PMs, this thread may not be the right place.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  20. #720
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    It isn't one thing in particular Satorri, it's a multitude of things that they COULD do better but it's personal preference. As a whole, I'm content with the class, however there are things I think that would make it better and not everyone would agree with me.

    I'm sure you have some things that you wish could be better in a game. It's pretty much the same with me. There are some things that I somewhat do not agree with and other things I would rather they do another way. But all and all, I'm a 27 year old man that plays a video game. Really, where's my opinion lol

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