Killing Machine no longer benefits dual wielding any better than a 2h. There is nothing, technically, that works better with dual wielding, though there are talents that have a larger effect simply because they buff what dual wielding is capable of surpassing 2h's on: auto-attacks.
To clarify what Jack said further, we focus on the hit cap(s) as a magical that must be reached. Truthfully you do not need to hit cap to do fine on threat. We fixate on it because we CAN reach the hit cap. It is certainly worth it for threat, and it is a very valuable buff, but you do not HAVE to.
Satorri i've read a lot lately concerning hit caps and threat stats i seem to have come across some that are conflicted as to expertise being worth stacking till cap as a frost tank, any thoughts? Any info u can share would be most appreciated.
You should at least try to get "dodge capped", ie 26 expertise. Parry cap is 57 IIRC and not really something you should be shooting for. Your priorities in this case should be to get hit and dodge capped.
Everyone's threat will be buffed reasonably well as a tank by soft-capping hit and expertise. That said it doesn't have the same value for everyone. Traditionally Frost has less value from Expertise because of the moves you rely on for threat:
FS, RS, HB, OB, BS, IT, melee
Of these only melee auto-attacks, Oblit, and BS get any benefit from Expertise, but they surely do. Oblit we rely on for Rime procs and it does heavy damage, but it does neither if it gets dodged/parried. That is why people don't value Expertise as highly for Frost, however, it's not at all hard for a geared DK to be soft-capped on expertise, so that shouldn't be much of an issue. If you have ID or World Carver that's doing half the work alone.
I tanked my first heroic last night and my friends were kind, but while there were no wipes, I attribute this more to their dps/heals than my tank job. I'm looking for some advice on rotation as much as anything, but any tips would be helpful.
World of Warcraft Armory Let the shredding begin :P
Also, are there any good resources for DPS rotations/builds?
In your opinion how does single target TPS fare between the three trees? I am unholy, been like that for a long time, partly because I'm vain and I like the speed and partly because I like the complexity of the rotation. Anyway, I was ruminating on the possibility of trying out frost for increased TPS...
All 3 do just fine, though you can't underestimate the player factor.
Since you've been Unholy for so long you know your stuff inside and out and it comes naturally. If you switch to Frost there will be a short period of rapid adjustment, followed by a moderate period of refining, and a long long time of re-developing all the sort of tricks you have for Unholy.
Some people do better with certain trees over others, but I guarantee, each tree is capable of the same output.
The first page still doesn't have a posted Unholy build, so I thought I'd put my current sandbox build up.
Satorri's AoE Burn Unholy Tanking Spec
I've been tanking as blood and sporting a Frost dps off-spec because sometimes I like to dps instances for folks and in theory I could/should be dpsing in raids when not tanking (maybe I won't be tanking everything someday =D). Since I haven't been dpsing at all lately though, I've been considering picking up my Unholy tanking setup again so I can be the super-powered aoe tank I was before. After pally tanking at 80 it just doesn't feel as overwhelmingly powerful as I did as Unholy. With the trees now I've shifted my spec a bit and there may be a little bit of juggling, but the central theme remains the same. I'll explain briefly:
Unholy's central strength is stacking passive dot effects: diseases, DnD, UB. Regardless of single target or multi-target, setting these up regularly makes for a massive baseline of threat that you can then use your active skills to suit further needs. ScS spam on focus targets or bosses (swapping Blood runes to Death with BS/BB), BB spam and Corpse Explosion for aoe groups.
This build doesn't take everything that could benefit an Unholy build (you still can't get it all), but it has a strong balance.
Satorri, I see that you took Black Ice in your Unholy build. It looks really great, as most of Unholy damage is Shadow damage. Maybe it would be better to put whole 5 points into Black Ice instead of, let say Morbidity? Or instead of Imp Unh Pres and AMZ?
I can explain why I didn't give those up. First and foremost, notice I only have 50 pts in Unholy, I cannot give up anything earlier in the tree without giving up points in Rage of Rivendare, which trumps Black Ice completely. Even discounting the Expertise, 2% all damage increased vs 2% shadow and frost. The condition of Blood Plague is not hard to maintain at all times.
Really, for me, it's a matter of how I spend my points in Frost and Blood, of which I have 21. Bladed Armor is a never-leave-home-without, so that's 10 pts locked in Blood. In Frost, Toughness always gets a full stack for me, so that leaves 6 points. Because DK's are the best at providing the melee de-haste, and as unholy both my diseases are up at all times religiously, I take improved IT (and actually use IT/PS to refresh as they actually still add up to a hansom amount of threat as Unholy with this spec). This only leaves 3 pts for Black Ice.
So there are 3 places I would have to pick between to buff Black Ice further:
Rage of Rivendare = 2% all dmg +1 exp per point vs 2% shadow/frost, I choose all.
Bladed Armor = in my gear is ~180 AP per pt, the trickle down is very valuable, especially played off Impurity. I choose Bladed Armor.
Imp IT = this is the weakest link, but it's also a major tanking value since I am the one principally applying it. Since this would be my aoe tanking build and I'd be the one working all of the mobs, that extra 8% slower swing speed on all of them is innumerably important (and plays well with Bone Shield).
Believe me, I wish I had the points to top it off.
Yeah, now I see it. I'm frost now and I've just forgot how hard it is to spend points in Unholly Maybe not hard, but there are 2 'empty' rows in this tree
I wouldn't change anything then, 5/5 in bladed armor is a must as well as 5/5 in rage if rivendare.
Hey guys quick question, im debating a few things with another DK tank on the server and i wanted to get you guys opinions. Question being as a frost tank with your points in the other trees the debate is this: Givin my spec atm which is 12/52/7 The World of Warcraft Armory
would it be more threat to drop BA to 2 points instead of 5 and move 2 points to SoB and 2 points to Virulence.
I have noticed a few times here and there that i had to reapply a missed plague strike on opening but not to bad so im just not sure, any suggestions?
Also i was thinking possibly not taking any in virulence and maybe keeping 3/5 BA and 3/3 SoB just simply looking for more threat is all. Another issue he suggested (and i honestly don't know enough to form an opinion on this) is that spending 2 points in 2h weapon spec is more useful spent somewhere else because 4% dmg isn't huge (his words not mine). So again any thoughts?
A bit late to the party, but has 3.1 killed DW frost spec tank?
3.1 didn't do anything particularly noticeable to dual wield tanks. No one was using the HB/3rd disease setup to tank with that I saw. Besides that, he's not spec'd to dual wield tank.
Bornshire, there are few talents that have a bigger impact on your threat as a tank than Bladed Armor. Because we are constantly dealing with substantial armor (potentially the highest armor of any tank), that conversion is a HUGE buff to your AP. In your current gear you're getting 167 AP per point in Bladed Armor. I did the math somewhere else, not sure which thread I'm in all of them, but point for point Bladed Armor will surpass 2h spec as a tank. I'd fill that 5/5 before putting points in 2h spec. 2/4% is not a bad buff as it affects your melee and trickles down to your weapon dmg based strikes, but it works out to be less than the AP from Bladed Armor even just on those weapon strikes and the AP buffs all of your damaging moves (including HB, IT, BB, and DnD, which 2h spec does not help).
Virulence is nice, though bear in mind it won't help your PS hits only spells (HB, IT, DnD for you). You're a ways below the hit cap right now (2.25% miss on melee) which is why you'll have missed PS, BS, OB, and FS's. Spells have a higher miss rate but that will actually be reduced by your raid buffing (Spriest or Boomkin will shave 3% off), and only raid bosses will have the significantly higher miss chance for those, trash will be almost covered by your current hit rating.
For Scent of Blood, Frost is the one spec where I really like this talent. FS is a MASSIVE threat tool, particularly glyphed, and generating plenty of RP to use it often is not a bad thing at all (also being a safe strike that can't be dodged/parried/blocked). I don't think you need it, but if you have plenty of opportunity to use FS (i.e. rune blackouts from lots of FU moves) then I say bring on the RP!
Ty Satorri u never disappoint now if i can just get lucky with a better weapon lol.
OK so there is much I disagree with here! lol I have to say that one things a fact, you do not want to end up having your runes on a long ass cool down! A great way to drop behind threat as a DK tank is to sit and white damage targets while waiting on cool downs!
Another thing is I have done just about every spec you can think of!
I don't like frost because of the lack of boost to stam but the mitigation is nice for sure. Unholy is the same but lots of possible aoe which is nice but again no stam boost.
While blood may seem like it lacks aoe and mitigation, run tap, mark of blood and vampiric blood are great ways to boost survivability not to mention the boost in stam and strength!
As a few of you have said you can tank effectively in all trees for sure! But the comment was made that the player comes in to it in a big way! What you enjoy you will do well. Anyway I don't think you will find any dedicated DK tanks that agree fully due to the fact that you really can tank in all trees...
Now I set out with a point to this post but thanks to my rambling I have forgotten it! but here's my spec feel free to comment.The World of Warcraft Armory
P.S. I have issues with this build but has at this point sastained the best threat and kept the healers the happiest..
Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver, from H HOL. After that little switch I found my tanking to be a lot better. After not haveing to worry or even think about threat I can think about other things. Also the dps didn't have to worry about pulling threat when they go all out. Here's my armory if you wanted to take a look at it, granted I have upgrated to BIS for my 2h now........woot.
The World of Warcraft Armory
(looks like I logged off with my fishing pole...oops, should be updated tonight after I play.)