Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

[Yasu_Executus]

Hay guys i cant seam to find out wtf is going on with my tps im a blood tank ao is no problem but its the singal tank i have problems with dps pulls off of me and im allways fighing to keep thret in raids MTing but i can OT fine.

30k unbuff hp 54.942% Avoid mitigration 68.215%

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my wrist are from 10m uldar [Flamewatch Armguards]+47 str +88 stam def rate 43 dodge rate 35 hit rate 28

my rotation is

DnD>IT>PS>HS>HS>DS>DC>DS RINCES REPEAT.

any help will be appcicated and welcome

[Satorri]

First MAJOR MAJOR point. You have zero Expertise.

As a Blood Knight almost all of your threat will come from melee strikes, and with the exception of RS, each of those strikes has a major benefit from Expertise (double the value of hit rating). With 0 exp, you will be dodge+parried on about 20% or 1 in 5 of your swings. This is a HUGE loss of threat. If you have the ability to do so, I'd recommend running EoE25 for the expertise trinket (swap it in for the armor trinket). If you can get that it'll be a quick fix in the right direction. Your goal is at least 26 expertise so you can remove the chance to be dodged (that's 213 exp rating).

The other major feature I'd suggest is that you play better to your talents in terms of the moves you use. DS is a good health restorer and does strong threat when it does heal, but using DRM will make for a much better net value. You have Sudden Doom which buffs HS threat specifically, and using DRM means you can essentially trade one DS per rune set to two heart strikes which is strong on one target but massive on two targets.

[Merko]

- And last but not least, Killing Machine It is really great for 5-mans, but for raids and bosses Icy Talons and Imp. Icy Talons are far more important.

Everything was right until this... leave imp icy talons for your dps dk or shaman. Pre 3.08 yes it was true however since they changed KM to proc per min, as a Frost DK Killing Machine combined with Frost Strike is probably your most important threat gen tool in your entire arsenal.

[coe]

@Merko, what if we don't have constant groups and not always we have Shaman in Raid? Not mentioning that I'm the only DK in raid almost every time (we do 10-mans only). Is KM still better?

[Merko]

Unless you have a raid with 2 tanks - 3 healers - and 4+ melee... i'd say then go ahead with imp IT. Unless you want to be the "buff tank" and let the other tank put out the appropriate levels of threat that a tank should be putting out. But its one of those 6 vs. half a dozen type deals, if your running a melee heavy 10 man with no shaman and no other frost DKs then yes Imp IT will win out... all other situations your build should have KM.

[macron]

@coe

Understood. I know a rotation goes out the window as soon as you need some fluid response to a change in combat, I've had plenty of experience with those kinds of situations tanking in EQ and DAoC (and I know WoW is a whole nother bag of nuts). I'm primarily looking at maximizing my threat on tank and spank/trash situations where a rotation is completely usable. I don't rely on ERW so I can be prepared to use it when I need to drop my rotation and jump to more fluid combat. I have no delusions that I'll be able to use a regular rotation beyond a few Naxx bosses or any traditional tank and spank.

-Between yours and Merko's advice, I think DnD as an opener works, but I agree that it's not neccessary in my rotation, so i'm working on removing that.

-Deathchill is definitely gone. At first I thought it might even be useful for solo AoE grinding, but it's even a waste for that.

-I definitely had morbidity in mind for chain pulling trash in 5 mans, but, especially if I'm going to drop DnD from my regular rotation, it's pretty well useless to me. Now that I've been looking at it, an HB that applies FF every 8 secs is plenty enough for chain pulling, then I just drop a DnD every other pull.

-As far as Rune Tap goes, I use it and love it on my blood DPS spec, but 10% of my hitpoints when I get Naxx geared will only be ~3k-3.5k, which is less than a flash heal from our holy spec'd priest. If I wasn't running in a premade 10 man with solid healing (holy priest and holy paly, with an enh shammy as backup) I'd consider it, and when I get deeper into raid progression and I'm not the sole focus of at least one of my healers I'd probably consider it again, but I'd rather put out more consistent threat. With UA, IBF and AMS, I've got plenty of oh shit cool downs.

-I couldn't agree with Merko more. Since putting KM into my frost spec after 3.1 came out, I've been pumping out crits like a badass on HB and FS. I've got 2 DPS DK's in our 10 man and an enh shammy to cover the haste in our guild runs, and any 25 man content I've been in on my main has consistently had 2-3 dk's and 2 shammies (Alliance - Ner'zhul is full of both). I'd agree with you whole heartedly about needing Icy Talons if this was not my situation, though, and I would recommend trying out KM, cause you'll see your damage and threat take a nice jump up.

Thanks for the advice, coe and Merko. Gonna go back and re-work my spec a lil bit. Also shuffle my rotation, and drop DnD, maybe add PS and Pest. Or I might just drop it down to a 20 second rotation. I'll post up my changes when I get around to them.

[coe]

OK, even if not always have Shammy in raid, we usually have more ranged dps than melee. So I think that I'll go back to KM Thanks for advice.

edit: and one note about Rune Tap. Yes, it is only 3-4k heal, but it scales with your hp. It will be always 10% heal and can be useful for many situations (cause it is on 1min cd). At least for progression (max hp, best cooldowns, etc.) it is great, when Ulduar will be on farm status I will probably go in maximizing dps/tps direction. But you're right, if you have solid healing and no problems survival, maximizing dps helps a lot too.

[Satorri]

<3 Rune Tap regardless of spec. Free re-usable health pot on a 1 min CD not shared with your single potion and/or healthstone.

Anyone who think tanks should never heal themselves is doing a disservice to their healers.

[Javelina]

this is my current spec
The World of Warcraft Armory

AOE rotation
DND>IT>PS>Pest>BT>BB wait about 2 secs HB or Deathchill and HB for a 4-7k crit on HB

Single Target rotation
DND>IT>PS>BS>FS>OB>FS

Im having great threat generation however theres always room for improvement
My question is the new Glyph of Howling Blast
It puts Frost Fever on the targets is it worth dropping
Glyph of (Frost Strike,Rune Strike,Obliterate) one of the three im curently using
And also for ppl that are looking for a good all around frost DK tanking build i've never had any problems with mine .
Currently making changes for more avoidance for Ulduar
Unbuffed stats
30,526 life
55.57 avoidance
66.05 armor reduction

[Sagan]

which is better for threat 3/3 subversion or 3/3 virulence?

this is the baseline spec i'm looking at 3pts left:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

[Satorri]

No competition in my mind, Subversion will be a more distinct threat buff, assuming you can meet most of the following conditions:

Hit capped for melee specials
Shadow Priest or Boomkin in your party providing +spell hit buff

Subversion will markably increase your Oblit and BS dmg (which are already nicely buffed, and the former will be important to use as a primary threat tool and for it's Rime procs for bonus threat).

Virulence will improve your chance to hit with IT and HB. Depending on your glyph choices IT may be rather less useful, and while it is nice to never miss with a big 'ole HB, I suspect 9% crit on OB and BS will outweigh the 3% hit on those two spells. With the above conditions you should never miss unless it's a boss (you'll do that without any additional buffs if you are hit soft-capped), and on a boss with Misery/ImpFF you should only be sporting a 2-3% miss rate, less if you have a draenei in your party.

This is NOT from actual numbers, just a personal perception. Someone more knowledgeable with their Frost build can probably gauge better the effect.

[coe]

I would choose Subversion as well, but maybe 2h weapon spec. is also worth considering? It buffs Rune Strike dmg by 6% and Obl, Frost Strike, Blood Strike by 1,6% - 3,2% (if I understand this talent right).

[PimPamPetriQ]

so i guess it all stands with being hitcapped or not. if you are you should take the extra crit-chance perhaps( tho i don't like the word "chance" when i'm tanking). miss= 0 threat

[sillypuddy]

what was the hard hit cap and soft exp cap again?

[Satorri]

For DKs we have several 'caps'

Against a level 83 (raid boss only):
Melee specials and 2h auto-attacks = 8%
Dual wield, auto-attacks only = 27%
DnD/UB = ~15% (*this is lower than the normal spell cap, but I haven't tested it rigorously)
Spells (IT, HB, DC) = 17%

BB, Pest, and my taunts act somewhat strange. I have never had any of them record as a miss, or fail to work (save for taunt immune mobs who've been taunted too much in a short span).

Remember dropping one level to heroic bosses, or any mobs at lvl 82 drop these chances to:
Melee specials and 2h auto-attacks = 5.4%
Dual wield, auto-attacks only = 24.4%
DnD/UB = ~5% (*this is lower than the normal spell cap, but I haven't tested it rigorously)
Spells (IT, HB, DC) = 6%

For expertise, the soft cap against a raid boss anticipates ~6.4% dodge (26 exp for 6.5%). The hard cap expects a maximum of 14% parry (56 Exp to remove that), though the parry % can swing a bit. Again, anything less than a raid boss and those numbers drop precipitously to ~5% each, give or take.

[sillypuddy]

ahh thanks for the enlightenment

[Bornshire]

Hey guys im new to tankspot and had some questions.

First im just now starting to tank as a DK and was told that blood is a pretty hawt spec atm so i took the cookie cutter shown here (dont laugh if it still shows my horrible dps gear that i did dailies in :P)
The World of Warcraft Armory

I have been clearing naxx as starting ulduar but as a moonkin so this is really all new to me, any advise anyone could lend as far as tweaks to the spec and more specifically glyphs as well as both AoE and single target threat rotations would be awesome. This may well have been covered in fact im sure it has but as i read threw these 30 something pages i saw many diffrent changes so im sry if im causing someone to repeat : (

TY so much.

[Jack]

It's worth pointing out again when talking about hit cap, that for dual wielding, reaching the auto-attack hit cap is irrelevant. It's important to reach the melee special hit cap, somewhat important to reach the spell hit cap (moreso in Frost, at least the lvl 82 cap for HB AoE) because you rely on those special attacks for threat generation. However, you get so many auto attacks so fast when dual wielding that if you miss with them, it really doesn't matter. Your next hits will come up quickly enough to compensate.

@Javelina

My question is the new Glyph of Howling Blast

I was very excited about the Glyph of Howling Blast and snapped one up as soon as I could. Having used it for a bit, though, I came to realize that I still throw around Icy Touch as a nice ranged attack, often a good opening pull, I still Pestilence to spread Blood Fever and convert a blood rune to death. i.e. I don't really need to use the Glyph to spread Frost Fever.

In fact, having the Glyph of Howling Blast provided a disincentive to use Icy Touch. It gave me an excuse to try and use a some other ability that would be more efficient since I didn't need to use IT to maintain FF, right? And while there is some merit to that, it also broke the synergy between my abilities (IT) and my gear (Sigil of the Frozen Conscience).

In the end, I decided I didn't like the Glyph of Howling Blast. Spreading FF one GCD faster isn't bad, but neither is it necessary and the glyph slot was better used to power more Icy Touches, IMO.

[cristibengescu]

I am watching your posts for some time and last week i decided to try DW tanking as serious as possible. Atm, i am tanking Ulduar 10 and 25 without big problems and in my opinion dw tanking also improves a little the avoidance.

This is my DK tank DW : The World of Warcraft Armory

Also with 2H tanking, the avoidance it was not so good and also i think i was taking too much spike dmg.

32869 HP
27.73% dodge
22.33% parry
self buffed.

Post your thoughts.
Thank you,

[Vanthus]

I am watching your posts for some time and last week i decided to try DW tanking as serious as possible. Atm, i am tanking Ulduar 10 and 25 without big problems and in my opinion dw tanking also improves a little the avoidance.

This is my DK tank DW : The World of Warcraft Armory

Also with 2H tanking, the avoidance it was not so good and also i think i was taking too much spike dmg.

32869 HP
27.73% dodge
22.33% parry
self buffed.

Post your thoughts.
Thank you,

It seems to me with that build that you really don't have anything, other than Killing Machine, that takes advantage of DW. If I were to DW, which I may try soon, I would grab skills like Icy Talons, Necrosis, Dark Conviction, Bloody Vengance, etc. It's not that the build is bad, but there isn't much difference between DW and 2 hander in this build.