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Thread: Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

  1. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaiser View Post
    Guys i got this spec: The World of Warcraft Armory

    What is the best rotation for this spec, single and aoe target.

    Tx in advance.
    While I realise you are asking for help with your rotation, I honestly would recommend taking Rune Tap and Imp. Rune Tap over Spell Deflection/Will of the Necropolis. Personally, any time I'm reduced to 35% health, very often its signalling that something happened to healers and we are on the way to a wipe. In such a scenario, I cannot help but feel that it is more useful to have Rune Tap.

    Moving on, correct me if I'm wrong please:

    Single Target: Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Heart Strike, Death Strike, Heart Strike, Death Strike

    Once your FU rune pairs cool down and turn into Death runes, you set yourself up for Heart Strike spam till you get back to reapplying diseases or Death Striking.

    AOE: Death and Decay, Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Pestilence, Blood Tap, Blood Boil

    Usually after this I just keep up the blood boil spam while keeping diseases up as well as Death and Decay on cooldown. Never had anyone pull mobs off me unless they specifically keep at it.

    I hope this helps, if anyone finds any errors or a more efficient way to do the rotations feel free to comment
    Little by little, one travels far.

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merko View Post
    Pretty simple answer to this one

    In a rotation with 1 Rime, 2 Obliterates, 1 Frost Strike and a Killing Machine Proc no matter what you are going to use 4 GCD's and recieve the same amount of RP

    Your choice is either use KM with Rime or use KM with Frost Strike.

    Right now FS is hitting harder than your HB so when your FS crits your gains are larger than they are when HB crits.

    Jack, its like banging my head against a wall with you...

    you have for 4 GCD's and 2 options

    KM/Rime , OBL , OBL , FS

    or

    KM/FS , OBL , OBL , Rime

    BOTH GENERATE THE SAME AMOUNT OF RUNIC POWER however the first will generate more threat.

    Since 3.1 came along Blizzard nerfed the hell out of DW tanking so if your so inclined to fight an uphill battle and DW, yes then HB is better than FS to use.

    and here is my broken down WWS from last nights where you can see, especially full boss attempt raid buffed attacking skull level mobs how FS crits gives you larger gains than HB crits.

    Trash Mobs

    Obliterate (Physical)
    Hits 95
    Average Damage 2432

    Howling Blast (Frost)
    Hits 39
    Average Damage 2219

    Frost Strike (Frost)
    Hits 37
    Average Damage 2287

    Boss Damage

    Obliterate (Physical)
    Hits 149
    Average Damage 2721

    Howling Blast (Frost)
    Hits 71
    Average Damage 2550

    Frost Strike (Frost)
    Hits 64
    Average Damage 2892

    CRIT Damage for Entire Night

    Obliterate (Physical)
    Crits 100
    Average Damage 6621

    Howling Blast (Frost)
    Crits 136
    Average Damage 4944

    Frost Strike (Frost)
    Crits 94
    Average Damage 6796

  3. #563
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    I have read this thread up and down, but I still am lost for one piece of the Frost Tank puzzle. Plague Strike, or not. Does the disease bonus damage to Obliterate make it more useful to use the Glyph of Disease, or is the added threat/damage so low that it would be better to focus purely on Frost Fever only with Glyph of Howling Blast?

  4. #564
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    3.1 MUST HAVE GLYPHS:
    Unbreakable Armor
    Obliterate

    This leaves us with a decision for our last glyph

    assuming 25 man raid situation

    using Stormbreaker 10 million HP 2.5 minutes alive as judge

    IT avg hit = 1,100
    PS avg hit = 800
    BS avg hit = 1050
    Rune Strikes = 18
    Rime Proc'd HB = 6

    Glyph of IT = 3xIT per minute = 30 RP = ~3k damage increase

    Glyph of FS = 8 RP saved per strike @ 3.5 per minute = 28 RP = ~2.8k damage increase

    Glyph of RS = 10% Chance to crit increase (7.5 RS per min) = ~2.25k damage increase

    this leaves us with our 2 new glyphs...

    Glyph of HB = 2.33 Rime proc per minute + loss in damage from using HB instead of Obliterate to fill in gaps and throwing off the rotation from the extra rune and gives this glyph an awkward feeling and tough to max/min a rotation.

    Glyph of Disease = Per minute Gains: 3 unholy runes, 3 frost runes "10-11k damage" Per minute Losses: 3 IT, 3 PS, 3 BS "9k damage" = 1k-2k gains



    This is rough math "stuck at work atm" but take it for what you will

    Also now that Plague strike hits for more than the 200-300 it used too and the increased length of diseases with Epidemic it is definately worth keeping Plague strike up.

  5. #565
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    I misunderstood what you meant with the 4 gcd example. Sorry man. In the context of you saying "Rime Procs should only be used when all runes are on CD and you do not have enough RP for a FS or when it is about to run out," I thought you meant Rime or FS, not necessarily both in the 4gcd rotation. If you've got the same four abilities in the rotation then yeah, agreed, you use KM on the one that generate more threat.

    Damage formulas for the two abilities, assuming one of the Naxx epic 3.4 speed, 203dps weapon:

    FS ~ 570 + .144ap
    HB ~ 540 + .2ap

    Working backwards from the numbers you list, you'd need about +425 applied directly to your per hit weapon damage (making FS ~ 825 + .144ap) through either damage boost or damage multiplier to arrive at the relative numbers you do. An Ulduar epic would account for about 75 points of it. 2H specialization maybe 100 points all raid buffed up? More likely somewhat less than that. The important thing being that it cannot come from an ap boost, since ap scales higher for HB.

    Or, I would guess, it's a matter of your habits? Something like maybe after you hit UA (or some other ability/gear procs to boost ap) you always spam FS? So that it benefits from the extra ap? Or maybe you're more vigilant about using FS with ff active and actually end up HBing with ff down? Which means no bonus Tundra Stalker/Glacier Rot damage? Either of which habits would skew FS damage higher relative to HB damage.

    But straight from the formulas man, HB deals more damage than FS. You can skew it by how you use them, but the formulas tell you how they're designed to deal damage relative to each other.

    If HB normal average damage is in the range of 2500, I'd expect it to crit over 6100. You got under 5000? Is Runic Focus removed from the game? I'd guess no points in Guile of the Gorefiend, except that your Frost Strike is obviously benefitting from it.

    Do you have any idea what's up with your HB crits?

  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Do you have any idea what's up with your HB crits?
    I'm definately going to have to go into my reports and looki into that

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post

    Damage formulas for the two abilities, assuming one of the Naxx epic 3.4 speed, 203dps weapon:

    FS ~ 570 + .144ap
    HB ~ 540 + .2ap

    Working backwards from the numbers you list, you'd need about +425 applied directly to your per hit weapon damage (making FS ~ 825 + .144ap) through either damage boost or damage multiplier to arrive at the relative numbers you do. An Ulduar epic would account for about 75 points of it. 2H specialization maybe 100 points all raid buffed up? More likely somewhat less than that. The important thing being that it cannot come from an ap boost, since ap scales higher for HB.

    Or, I would guess, it's a matter of your habits? Something like maybe after you hit UA (or some other ability/gear procs to boost ap) you always spam FS? So that it benefits from the extra ap? Or maybe you're more vigilant about using FS with ff active and actually end up HBing with ff down? Which means no bonus Tundra Stalker/Glacier Rot damage? Either of which habits would skew FS damage higher relative to HB damage.

    But straight from the formulas man, HB deals more damage than FS. You can skew it by how you use them, but the formulas tell you how they're designed to deal damage relative to each other.
    Are you forgetting about the +15% damage increase they gave to FS with Blood of the North 5/5 in 3.1?

  7. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merko View Post
    Are you forgetting about the +15% damage increase they gave to FS with Blood of the North 5/5 in 3.1?
    I am forgetting the change to Blood of the North. Good catch.

    Readjusting, and this time factoring in the BotN bonus to FS and the weapon damage bonus from 2H wpn specialization,

    FS ~ 670 + .172ap
    HB ~ 540 + .2ap

    So if you're wielding a Naxx epic, with 2H weapon specalization, FS deals [130 - .028ap] more than HB, i.e. you're right. HB won't overtake FS damage until ap ~ 4650 and any damage added directly to the weapon damage widens the margin even more. In fact, doing more math and looking at available gear, it looks like any 2H weapon a DK would reasonably use at level 80 will deal more damage with FS than with HB. Of course, the margin widens in favor of FS as the quality of the weapon improves, and unless your habits favor using damage spikes on FS (e.g. ap bonus procs) we're talking about a very small difference in damage. But you're still right. Even when the weapon is an Heroics blue drop.

    Very good catch.

    Well done, sir. I am humbled.

  8. #568
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    I am finding this build which really isn't that different from the previous frost tank without Icy Talons build excellent...

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    I really don't mind the BoSanc change as Scent of Blood gives enough Rune Power to generate plenty of threat. I am experimenting with Hungering Cold and find it handy in the Razorscale fight but that point could be moved. It needs to be in the frost tree to reach HB so it's between:

    a. Deathchill
    b. Merciless Combat
    c. Runic Power Mastery
    d. Acclimation
    e. single point in Icy Talons for when the other dude isnt there.

    I don't know if a single point in Hungering Cold is useful in Ulduar and of those left it's hard to choose a winner.

    Thoughts guys? Previously I had deathchill as a nice opener but I resent it's cool down.

    I'm also running with threat Glyphs and am not having any problems so far. The improved Icebound Fortitude may find it's way back in and I have a Howling Blast one to experiment with in the bank at some time but am in no rush to change something that is fundamentally not broken.

    Cheers,
    Aenor
    Last edited by Aenor; 04-23-2009 at 04:59 PM. Reason: minor spelling error corrected

  9. #569
    any minor glyph suggestions lol

  10. #570
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    For frost it has to be..

    1. Horn of Winter
    2. Pestilence
    3. Raise Dead or Blood Tap

    Raise Dead gives a heal of sort. Blood Tap gives a rune without costing 487 HP. The choice is yours. You could even swap 2 for one of these if you needed both. Depends on play style. This last one is the least important for me although i am considering swapping raise dead for blood tap.

  11. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by sillypuddy View Post
    any minor glyph suggestions lol
    Horn of Winter, Raise Dead, Pestilence
    Little by little, one travels far.

  12. #572
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    Hey, I have a theory on your reported HB crit reporting, Merko. Just a theory, and it depends on the reporting tool you use . . . so I'm just throwing it out there as something to check.

    (a) I assume your reporting divides AoE damage by the number of targets in the AoE radius? Obviously, it should.

    (b) Does it ignore overkill damage? That would be reasonable when you evaluate how you use certain abilities and whether they are used efficiently. Though it skews a simple evaluation of damage potential.

    More importantly, though, in the context of (a) and (b) . . . are there critters on your battlefield?

    It always makes me chuckle when I HB and watch the rat scurrying nearby flip over in a flakey poof.

  13. #573
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    Blood tanks

    Hola, all first time posting,

    ive been doing research and been very interested in the blood tanking tree

    this is my opinion on a spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    Im not sure on a rotation, and would like so help or feed back on this spec some answers to some quests is

    why improve death grip? well another taunt

    im 73 atm but fast lvler

  14. #574
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    Occasionally people will pick up Unholy Command, but I don't usually care to spend pts on that compared to the other options. If I need to taunt frequently I'm doing something wrong. The exception to this is Malygos as a dpser, or at least not the main tank, as it allows you to more frequently help with spark placement.

    The spec looks fine otherwise, though I'd surely miss Epidemic, Subversion, and Death Rune Mastery, and Imp Icy Touch (assuming you don't have someone else responsible for the debuff).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Hey, I have a theory on your reported HB crit reporting, Merko. Just a theory, and it depends on the reporting tool you use . . . so I'm just throwing it out there as something to check.

    (a) I assume your reporting divides AoE damage by the number of targets in the AoE radius? Obviously, it should.

    (b) Does it ignore overkill damage? That would be reasonable when you evaluate how you use certain abilities and whether they are used efficiently. Though it skews a simple evaluation of damage potential.

    More importantly, though, in the context of (a) and (b) . . . are there critters on your battlefield?

    It always makes me chuckle when I HB and watch the rat scurrying nearby flip over in a flakey poof.
    Jack,

    after another run through Ulduar I looked at my report ... and /facepalm
    HB average gets wtfpwned by trash mobs on the way to XT and Freya.

    There are so few AoE type pulls in that instance that these couple pulls account for a large portion of the HB *hits* recorded by WWS that the numbers are extremely scewed on trash mobs.

    Good news is Worldcarver + FS hits like a truck seeing 7.5k+ FS crits regularly with some just about breaking 9k

  16. #576
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    hello everyone, on my dk i use a regular frost tank spec. I have some thoughts of spell deflection & acclimation in ulduar, how useful is either of them ? and on what fights ?

  17. #577
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    Styv, i run pretty regularly with at least 1 point in acclimation for progression content. While it is not mandatory by any means I know it has periodically saved my butt especially if you get a nice stack before a big incoming hit. There is a lot of spell school hitting you in Ulduar for learning some of the fights you may even be better off having a stack or 2 of Lesser Resistance Flasks on top of your acclimation

  18. #578
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    The World of Warcraft Armory

    i got a question about trash tanking and threat.

    as an unholy tank, i could get good threat on trash and hold it. with my blood build, it's alot harder to grab all the mobs. once in awhile one might slip past me. should i be opening with D&D all the time just to get everyones attention and then start in my rotation?

    last night was my first time as the MT in a 10 man naxx. i thought i did good with one exception. my threat was building up to slow. my rotation was IT, PS, HS, DS. i'd use DS when it was available to convert my runes to death runes. i'd use pest to refresh my diseases, and spam HS when i could. RS when ever it lit up. something i thought of doing was maybe useing hysteria at the beginning to help me do more damage to increase my threat. i've tried to throw in D&D, but i don't like the idea of it useing up 3 runes. but damage is damage and damage is threat. as an OT, i would like to think i do a good job. but i also want to learn to be a good MT as well.

  19. #579
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    blood tank

    satorri
    i was wondering if u can get me a updated proven example spec and a roation, would very help full.

  20. #580
    what is the best tanking weapon up to naxx(H)

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