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Thread: Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merko View Post
    I have been using an IT,PS,BS,BS,OBL,OBL,OBL rotation w/ Sigil of Awareness
    So in AOE situations trade one of the BS with Pest, and the first OBL to a HB, something like

    IT,PS,Pest,BS,HB,OBL,OBL

    Or would you open with a DnD? or even a HB (especially since glyphed it spreads FF)?

  2. #542
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    Hi, this is my first post, so be gentle with me.
    What do you think of this build? I've been playing around with it alittle, and am using the rotation:
    IT - PS - BS - BS - OB - OB - RPDUMP(FS)

    Talent Calc.

    Thanks in advance for the input.

  3. #543
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    FullPunk, the one major talent that will be missed is Bladed Armor. On a well-geared tank that will push up to around 800 AP for 5 pts!

    Otherwise it looks to be pretty standard issue Frost tanking + Epidemic (frequently Frost tanks won't take Epidemic as they are not shy about using IT frequently, and glyph of Disease and HB each give other opportunities for refreshes). The number of options for 'rotations' (/shiver) at this point are rather numerous.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    FullPunk, the one major talent that will be missed is Bladed Armor. On a well-geared tank that will push up to around 800 AP for 5 pts!

    Otherwise it looks to be pretty standard issue Frost tanking + Epidemic (frequently Frost tanks won't take Epidemic as they are not shy about using IT frequently, and glyph of Disease and HB each give other opportunities for refreshes). The number of options for 'rotations' (/shiver) at this point are rather numerous.
    Alright, so what would you suggest I remove to get the 5 points I need?

    Also, I found on another forum on this site, a macro that puts Rune Strike onto an ability, I have since then made macros for all my attacks to include it, as it is a frequently used ability.

    The Macro Template

    #showtooltip
    /cast <Ability and Rank>
    /cast !Rune Strike

    Supposedly, the ! before the ability makes it so that it isn't interrupted if you are spamming the button.

  5. #545
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    Nov 2008
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    Skyz,
    I gave your suggested talent build a shot, and i must say...it's working wonders!
    KM does help my TPS quite a lot...and 1 point in Chill of the Grave is quite enough for me...I usually have enough RP after a "rotation" for a Frost Strike, sometimes 2...
    I tanked Kel'Thuzad - 10 man last night for the 1st time...and after a few wipes due to having more melee dps than usual we got him down. The guild had killed him before, but it was my 1st time. The guild was happy with my work to say the least

    As for the JC part, I'll take your advice into consideration and start it soon...you do have a point about them chromatic gems...should be a huge boost for me.

    Satorri,
    I must agree about Chill of the Grave, but after testing out the build that Skyz gave me, 1 Point seems to do the trick there.


    Merko,
    The reason why i specced into IT and Imp.IT is because we rarely have our shaman with us...and i do mean "rarely"...so our melee dps are happy with my spec and last night i guess you can say i proved my worth...

    All of Naxx was a breeze, the guild was surprised to see how i picked up the tactics quick and we didn't wipe once till we got Kel'Thuzad.

    Next step, JC and getting hit/exp cap...im guessing the hit/exp will also help with my TPS no?

    Thank you so much for your help guys...
    You put a smile on this tank's face

  6. #546
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    Apr 2009
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    Good to hear that Shazlonium.
    Keep in mind that your spec will change with your guild progression.

    Hit and Expertise will boost your TPS incredibly, trust me on this.
    JC will help your HP.

    Good luck in your progression.

  7. #547
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    Fullpunk, that's where choices get tricky and personal. I don't think any of your talents are easy easy misses, but these would be my first talents to pull to get it:
    Icy Talons (part stack, if you have a shaman dropping Windfury they're over-riding this anyway)

    Epidemic (extra disease duration is nice, but depending on glyph selection and rotation it is not hard to refresh frequently as Frost and it can be profitable)

    Hungering Cold (it has its uses to be sure, though in raids I find the situations where you want to use it to full effect, locking stuff down, is also the situations where there is a lot of aoe flying around to break it)

    Acclimation (a fine buff, but with only 1 pt the smaller chance to proc will also make it harder to get repeat stacks, I wouldn't drop it from every tank build, though this is one I prefer to go all or re-allocate)

    2-hand Spec (of all of them this is probably one of the last I'd drop, but Bladed Armor is still better point for point)

    If you have a shaman or two (if only one and it's elemental, probably won't drop Windfury) then Icy Talons is an easy 3 pts to pull over, then you could just pull from Hungering Cold and Acclimation and you'd be fully stacked. I may be inclined to do it anyway, but that's my preference.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #548

    Keep Unholy tanking alive!

    I hate how everyone skips right over unholy tanking >< I think a lot of people are getting too wrapped up about number crunching and ignoring the true test of the field. I swear by unholy tanking. Also, I think a lot of people are getting wrapped around single trees. I've done some playing with this spec both by numbers and by tests and I'll swear by it.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    Keep unholy tanking alive.

    Constructive critism welcome=)

  9. #549
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    People only see Unholy getting nerfed without buffs, that's why people haven't been discussing it. =)

    It's still doing just fine, it's just not at the noticeable advantage it used to be.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #550
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    Mar 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaanatos
    So, let's talk some basic numbers because I too am curious about what a DW compared to 2H spec looks like . . . Obviously, I would probably want more hit and xpertise.
    No, you wouldn't. That's the whole point that I, at least, was trying to make.

    I mean, you'd take more hit & expertise if you find gear that gives it to you without gimping other stats, DW takes advantage of more better than tanking with a 2Her . . . but you don't need more simply because you're DW. DW only affects your chance to hit on auto attacks. Not Strikes, not spells. If you're hit capped, then you're hit capped as far as Blood Strike, Obliterate, Rune Strike etc are concerned. Icy Touch & Howling Blast use spell hit, so being hit capped on those depends on what you mean when you say you're "hit capped" . . . but the point is the number you need to hit using those abilities is not affected by dual wielding.

    Only the chance to hit on auto attacks is affected by dual wielding. And if you compare auto attack damage dual wielding against auto attack damage using a single comparably levelled 2H weapon, at whatever hit value you have, DW beats it. The more hit you have the wider the margin DW will win by, but at any hit level DW wins that comparison.

    And regarding expertise, you're either unparryable in any given encounter or your not. Dual wielding or wielding a 2Her. Your opponent's parry chance is the same. They can parry gib or they can't. You give them more chances to do so when you DW, but stacking on more expertise isn't going to make DW safer than tanking with a 2H weapon. If your opponent can both (a) parry you and (b) deal enough damage to kill you in two blows, then DW is more dangerous than 2H tanking. That's why you carry a backup 2H weapon. Ideally, you stack on enough expertise that you won't have to worry about that with a 2H weapon, right? That wielding a 2H weapon, your opponent can't parry you? If you have that much expertise, then you don't have to worry about it DW tanking either. If your opponent can't parry you while you're wielding a 2H weapon, then he can't parry you when you DW.

    If the tanks you read who DW say they're cutting back on dodge or parry or any other stat so they can stack more hit/expertise then either (a) they're making a mistake or (b) they've reached the point on those other stats that they can afford to tune that way - where DW has opened up their options so they can compare the value of another .1% chance to dodge against the value of adding another .08 to their Killing Machine ppm. Or whatever.

  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shazlonium
    I read somewhere the KM has become viable now...is it true? do i need it? what about Chill of the Grave? useful/useless?
    Killing Machine into Howling Blast is my primary AoE threat generater. I guess I don't know what "becoming viable now" means, since it's been the same since I started playing my DK . . . but if you mean can you count on it being proc'd when Howling Blast is off cooldown (which is what I would mean when Frost tanking)? Well, usually. It's still a random chance, so sometimes it's not . . . but I find that it usually is.

    I DW tank specifically to increase the number of times it is, so maybe you'll find differently if you tank with a 2H weapon . . . but I think 2H tanking isn't too far behind DW tanking on KM procs due to the higher chance to proc off your Strikes.

    One of the 3.1 changes I really like is how Rime got linked to Obliterate instead of Icy Touch and also refreshes HB cooldown. It means that if KM procs while HB is on cooldown, instead of sitting on the proc until the cooldown is up, you can Obliterate for the 15% chance use HB right away. Which is important . . . KM can't proc a second time until the first is either used or expired.

    It's also nice that HB damage is no longer so strongly tied to frost fever. No more wasting a KM proc on IT just to start FF before the HB.
    So yeah, those are the KM related changes I've noticed and they seem good.

    I also like Chill of the Grave. More runic power means more Frost Strikes. Frost Strikes can't be dodged, blocked or parried. It's like throwing instant threat on any target in melee range. The more often I can use it, the better.

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merko
    However if you are prioritizing HB over Obliterate you are wrong.
    No, no, no, no, no.

    Unless you're talking exclusively about single target tanking maybe? Maybe you're referring to tanking just one boss mob and let the off tanks handle AoE responsibilities?

    Or are you comparing Obliterate to non-critical Howling Blasts? 'Cause, yeah, if you're using Howling Blast over Obliterate without a KM proc . . . that would be wrong. But, man, I'm getting comparable damage to every target in HB range from a HB crit to what I would get against a single target Obliterate crit. Killing Machine is the key to using HB correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merko
    I have been using an IT,PS,BS,BS,OBL,OBL,OBL rotation . . . however I will interupt my rotation . . . to use a FS with a Killing Machine proc.
    Do you handle AoE responsibilities through target switching alone? I gotta' admit that would be impressive. I certainly couldn't do it.

  13. #553
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    Jack,

    I hope you take no offense to this but 95%+ of posters here are talking about how to DK Raid Tank. It would seem pretty obvious that a KM/HB combo works great for trash and 5 mans but trash is exactly that... trash and I'm not sure if you have been to Ulduar yet but for the time being the days of going in with careless AoE has taken a backseat to CC again.

    For tanking bosses if you are wasting your KM procs on HB you are missing out on potential threat and considering "if your lvl 74 DK is your only DK toon" is still duel wielding after 3.1 you really need to think about what you post and do some research. The goal here is to put out facts... not "well if i drop DnD and spin around 5 times the mob dies and noone pulled aggro so it must be the right way to do it" type of information.

  14. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Do you handle AoE responsibilities through target switching alone? I gotta' admit that would be impressive. I certainly couldn't do it.
    I'm going to feed the troll and toss this back to you

    I'm guessing you never tanked pre WoTLK...

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merko
    I'm guessing you never tanked pre WoTLK...
    lol . . . you guess wrong. Though you're close. I am relatively new to tanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merko
    The goal here is to put out facts... not "well if i drop DnD and spin around 5 times the mob dies and noone pulled aggro so it must be the right way to do it" type of information.
    Right. I'm not trying to say there's a 100% all the time do it like this cause that's how I do it way. In fact, that's my point. There is a time for AoE effects. Trash is one of those times. Picking up adds during a boss fight is also (often). It would seem pretty obvious that you don't throw your primary AoE tanking tool at a single target. And yet you were pretty emphatic about never using it over Obliterate.

    I guess I misunderstood. I figured that when you said it was wrong to prioritize HB over Obliterate, you meant don't use HB over Obliterate. Ever.

  16. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    It would seem pretty obvious that you don't throw your primary AoE tanking tool at a single target.
    Well that is why I made my post... because there are actually lots of people even on single target pulls that will use a HB for there KM proc instead of FS and/or prioritize HB over Obl on single target.

  17. #557
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    Ah. Understood. In that case, mostly I agree with how you've prioritized HB/FS/Obl.

    For those who would make that mistake: the decision to use a KM proc on FS instead of HB has more to do with efficient rune utilization than the actual damage done by FS and HB. I understand that, depending on your weapon, a HB crit can do more damage than a FS crit. The problem with doing so is that HB also uses the runes you want for Obliterate and a single HB crit does less damage than using the KM on a FS crit and the runes on an Obl.

    But I still have a question regarding some of your advice about using KM procs, Merko.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merko
    Rime Procs should only be used when all runes are on CD and you do not have enough RP for a FS or when it is about to run out.
    Given that HB generates runic power, wouldn't a free HB crit carry more value than just the damage it deals?

    In fact, if your HB will do more damage than the FS anyway (almost certainly the case when DW tanking), I would argue the only good reason to forgoe the Rimed HB is if you need to avoid AoE damage for some reason (i.e. cc, as you pointed out). However, even if your FS does deal more damage than a HB, how much more damage does it need to be before it is more valuable than HB's damage plus runic power generation?

    Keep in mind that I'm not arguing to use HB every time KM procs or even every time Rime procs, just in the special case of KM + Rime. A case which is probably worth watching for considering how often the situation could come up that KM procs and you use Obliterate to generate rp for a FS.

  18. #558
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    Pretty simple answer to this one

    In a rotation with 1 Rime, 2 Obliterates, 1 Frost Strike and a Killing Machine Proc no matter what you are going to use 4 GCD's and recieve the same amount of RP

    Your choice is either use KM with Rime or use KM with Frost Strike.

    Right now FS is hitting harder than your HB so when your FS crits your gains are larger than they are when HB crits.

  19. #559
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    (1) FS does not hit harder than HB.

    (2) FS-OB-OB-GCD4 does not generate the same amount of runic power regardless of GCD4 being a HB or a FS.

    Weapon damage has a wider range of values than HB does. Which results in FS having a chance to spike higher damage values than HB. At least, if you're using an appropriately levelled 2H weapon. On average, however, even using an appropriately levelled 2H weapon, HB will deal more damage than FS. And if you DW, HB should deal more than a 1H weapon, period.

    FS-OB-OB will use a constant amount of runic power. However, GCD4 is going to either generate runic power or use runic power. If you use the KM proc on a Rimed HB, you generate 10-15 runic power. If you use it on a FS, you use 32 or 40 runic power. Depending on talent/glyph.

    So here's the question, perhaps more clarified now.

    Doesn't generating runic power have some value? More value than spending runic power for a chance to hit a damage spike?

  20. #560
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    Apr 2009
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    Rotation

    Guys i got this spec: The World of Warcraft Armory

    What is the best rotation for this spec, single and aoe target.

    Tx in advance.

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