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Thread: Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

  1. #481
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    Once 3.1 hits this is the tank spec I plan on running for unholy : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    should be a strong AoE and single target threat spec. that last point in 2h spec can go anywhere really, i may use it in rune-tap or AMZ, not sure which.

  2. #482
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    Corpse Explosion wouldn't be a bad choice either, it would be a big aoe burst to add to the mix.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
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  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Corpse Explosion wouldn't be a bad choice either, it would be a big aoe burst to add to the mix.
    But it is also very situational.

    @ Malk: why Black Ice? Won't those points be better spent upping 2h wep spec to 2 and Imp Icy Touch? Are we getting a huge buff in our trained abilities in terms of frost and shadow damage? I haven't read up too much on 3.1 or gone over to the PTR so this is more of an educational question. I think it's humorous that they are switching UB and Gargoyle in the unholy tree and it is just stupid that they are doubling the cd limit on UA and BS when there is no way to get them both. True, our avoidance will increase with better gear but I can't imagine it will be that much to warrant doubling the cd duration.

    Anyway, report time from this weekend's raids:

    1) Didn't have any probs with any of the raids really. We did 2d sarth successfully on heroic version (I tanked sarth and didn't die from flame breaths), Maly on 2nd attempt with no tanking problems and 25 naxx very very easily (we even did 25/0 on Gothik successfully even though I DCd mid fight). Next, week the plan is to start attempts on Sarth 3d both reg and heroic versions.

    2) AOE threat was awesome...granted, some of the ease came from the prot paladin that was in the raid with me as well as the tank/dps DK we drag around with us but between consecrate/etc and my abilities we kept mobs off of everyone and it was one of the smoothest naxx runs I've seen. Whenever I died it was usually a healing issue (I died on Patchwerk because I think druids failed to keep up hots so the 27.5k-25k b2b hatefuls pretty much did it). An interesting scenario was on Thaddius where a couple of crucial peeps failed the jump or died like nubs because they weren't paying attention during polarity shifts. Anyway, we were slow on the dps and wound up killing him 20 sec after enrage with many people down by then (obviously). I used AMZ, IBF, AMS and survived with no problems during his hard enrage so that was awesome.

    3) Some lingering concerns with unholy. ST threat is still an issue...if dps doesn't pay attention they're going to feel the full effect of boss hits on cloth while their friends are scraping their remains off the floor. It's not too terribly bad but noticeably different from deep frost. Bone Shield charges at times are eaten up fairly quickly (I've switched gear a little bit again and am now right at 47% passive avoidance without popping my sigil for def cap so effectively 47% avoidance @ 530 def--it goes up at least .5% @ 540 then closer to 49% I think w/ HoW). But, with stat food I am hit capped and soft xpertise capped so I typically do around 2200 dps tanking.

    All in all, I'm happy I made the switch from deep frost to unholy. Again, I think doing so before you get most of your valorous gear is a mistake because your avoidance just can't handle it particularly if you are rechanting/gemming for hit & xpertise. At this stage of the game, I feel pretty good where I'm at in terms of stats and tanking ability even though I am a very young tank (never did it pre-wrath) and still have much to learn. In the near future we're trying to finish off the content w/ our nightfall & vanquisher titles as well as undying/immortal runs, and since we're using vw to tank sarth 3d that puts me on the drakes so I'm looking forward to that as well as the (hopefully) challenging fights of Ulduar. Thanks for reading--hope this has been helpful.

    Peace.

  4. #484
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    I know that you guys have been spending alot of time on DK tanks because it is a very asked question, but i may ask why you think DnD is benched with single target tanking, it gives a little bit more dps and alot of threat, which is used in a right rotation you can use on its every cooldown. i can main tank patchwork 25man with no troubles of keeping highest threat.

  5. #485
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    My current spec does the almost the most damage DnD can do (though I'm only 3/5 in Impurity and don't have it glyphed). It does fine damage and quality threat. The problem is that the cost is such that it doesn't net out TPS the way you might like. Using 3 runes in the first place isn't bad, especially when preset, and provided the target stays in it it will give you good threat, but all it really does for the exchange is buy you time with rune blackouts. If you don't have RP to use in that time and/or Blood Tap to pop, it's not actually going to net you an improvement. The other major problem with using it on CD is you have to wait for runes to come up which means either letting 3 runes sit stagnant for 5 sec, or waiting carefully on a few runes and not spending them as they come so that you can use DnD once it comes off CD. It's a nasty waiting game that can hurt your threat further. I don't think it's without merit, but I do think it is more trouble than it's worth, especially with the other tools you have that push quality threat without taking the drawbacks.

    And, Thanatos, the nerf to Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armor, and Vamp Blood was not meant to mitigate getting two at once, it is a flat out nerf. We're too durable currently so this is a step to make us less reliant on CDs. I'm not sure it isn't over-compensating, but I feel it will hurt some people more than others, Unholy comes to mind. As for Black Ice, it's a fine choice for Frost or Unholy where you have a significant portion of your damage as Frost or Shadow, respectively. For Blood it'd be a waste, since IT got mushed down a little and DC has yet to do the quality damage that you'd want to rely on it. If you really wanted I suppose you could hit Morbidity, Black Ice, Glyph of Death (or whatever the new DC glyph is called) and Sudden Doom, grab Scent of Blood, and launch the meatiest DCs you can manage. Ha ha.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #486
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    Satorri what glyphs are you using?

  7. #487
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    Currently (for another week or two >.>), Bone Shield, ScS, Rune Tap, Pestilence, Blood Tap, and HoW.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #488
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    ScS = Scourge Strike?

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaanatos View Post
    . . . Hit cap with 2h is 8% (about 270 hit I believe) while doing the same thing with DW is 25% or something to that effect which is about 900 hit rating (no thx). Yes, tanks will never approach that, but it's still high to push miss near the edge of the table when fighting bosses. . . .
    . . . One last word about threat with DW: look at your recount results after boss fights and see where all your damage is coming from. A great deal of it still comes from white damage (auto attacks). Do you really want more of these missing than necessary?
    DW tanking, you don't even try to reach the hit cap on your auto attacks. You don't need to. You throw so many auto attacks that even with the number that miss, you're going to hit a lot more than you do 2H tanking.

    Consider 2H tanking with a 3.5 speed weapon. In 1 minute you get 17 attacks. If you hit with all of them, you get 17 hits.

    Compare that to DW with a 2.6 speed main hand weapon and a 1.6 speed off hand. That's 23 main hand attacks and 37 off hand. 60 freakin attacks. You could miss half of them and still get nearly double the number of hits you do wielding a two-handed weapon. And the fact is that you don't miss half of them. With just enough hit to be 2H hit capped, you'll hit 80-85% dual wielding. Stack a reasonable amount for spell hit dependent Icy Touch and Howling Blast . . . well that extra hit is just wasted on your auto attacks with a 2H weapon, but DW, it'll help you land a few more hits per minute.

    Yes, damage per hit is lower than with a 2H weapon, but you hit so often that dual wielding yields significantly higher white damage than a two handed weapon will. It's what dual wielding is designed to do.

    More importantly, it also significanlty increases the number of Killing Machine procs. If you were hit/expertise capped, it would double the number of KM procs. More likely, with the reasonable amount of hit and expertise that you're going to stack just because you're a good tank, you're going to increase from 5ppm 2H tanking to 9ppm DW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaanatos View Post
    . . . Now, at this point, people are probably going to reply saying that parry gibbing isn't an issue because you can stack xpertise. True, but do you have 12% xpertise to throw parry off the table?
    Actually, at this point, I'm admitting that parry gibbing is a legitimate issue. Various approaches to tanking all have their strengths and weaknesses and parry gibbing is a weakness for DW tanking. It's less of an issue than it's made out to be because the vast majority of fights, the bosses will only have about 6-10% parry and even most of those can swing at you in quick succession without killing you, thus allowing the healer to catch up just like he'd have to if it happened to you while 2H tanking. 2H tanking doesn't eliminate parry gibbing, it just reduces the chances.

    On some bosses, you're right, DW tanking increases the risk unacceptably. I suggest that for those of us that do DW tank, we carry around a good 2H weapon, have it skilled up and runed and on bosses that hit hard enough to kill you with a parry gib before the healer can keep up, switch to 2H tanking that boss.

  10. #490
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    Yessir. I like it though it's not often a huge threat value, it does buy me occasional trades to more ScS with less IT/PS, but those are a fine combined threat value for me anyway, so it's not a big deal.

    3.1 changes a lot, since there's also glyph of disease, and ScS procs Desecration. There are definitely as many pleasant new streamlining changes as there are slight nerfs to certain aspects (like cutting uptime on the tree-specific CDs in half at least, longer with Bone Shield).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #491
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    So is Unholy going to be the DPS Tank build of choice come 3.1?

  12. #492
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    yes and no...

    For the first couple weeks in ulduar you will see many of the top guilds DK tanks picking up frost and blood for the extra survivability and CD management options.

    However, after they get Ulduar on farm and dps start putting out T8.5 level dps and healers get that extra healing you will see many DKs go Unholy for the (at the moment) extra threat gen possible as unholy. Except for nights when learning a "hard mode" boss.

    ...but once again this is speculation based on builds in there current PTR form and lack of RP generation for tanks without bosanc.

  13. #493
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    Unholy is sitting strong as ever though with a little more focus. The talents have been streamlined pleasantly, and the net has been to gain a bit of damage on PS and ScS which makes for stronger still single target threat. Also there is a little flexibility with Gargoyle at the 51 pt talent since that is easily skippable for tanks. What Unholy has lost a bit on is survival tools as Bone Shield had the doubled CD and we're losing a big chunk of avoidance (enough to effect the duration of the shield by probably 2-4 sec on average). We also lose a 2% Str/Stm buff which isn't huge, just a little nick. Unholy has gotten no new tools so that is about the whole of it (unless you want to count the 1% more magic dmg ignore on Magic Suppression).

    I think the knee jerk reaction, which is the same I had, is to look at the trees and look at all the talented survival moves that frost has (+3% miss, +4% all dmg reduction, Acclimation against spells, 20 sec per 2 min high dmg shield), then look at Blood and Unholy and feel like they are just inferior (unless you are willing to trust to self-healing as a survival tool). The more I play with it though I think DK's have been knocked down a bit overall, which they needed, but mostly we've just shifted the tools that we rely on most, another shift to static mitigation over powerful CDs and high avoidance to cover our slightly squishier nature otherwise. Frost just has the most classic mitigation, that still may not surpass Bone Shield for total dmg reduction (I'd put them close to even) it just feels more certain.

    The specs will all do just fine, and I think the details may come out in the wash once the dust settles and people are back to working with the live talents daily.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #494
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    How is howling blast on the PTR compared to live? I always enjoyed using frost for AOE tanking even though I am slowly moving over to Unholy AOE tanking. Also Is Ebon plague fixed in the patch? right now we roll with 3 DKs, Myself another tank and a DPS, and right now we are all unholy, will that be a issue in 3.1? or should we all try and pick a different tree?

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    DW tanking, you don't even try to reach the hit cap on your auto attacks. You don't need to. You throw so many auto attacks that even with the number that miss, you're going to hit a lot more than you do 2H tanking.

    Consider 2H tanking with a 3.5 speed weapon. In 1 minute you get 17 attacks. If you hit with all of them, you get 17 hits.

    Compare that to DW with a 2.6 speed main hand weapon and a 1.6 speed off hand. That's 23 main hand attacks and 37 off hand. 60 freakin attacks. You could miss half of them and still get nearly double the number of hits you do wielding a two-handed weapon. And the fact is that you don't miss half of them. With just enough hit to be 2H hit capped, you'll hit 80-85% dual wielding. Stack a reasonable amount for spell hit dependent Icy Touch and Howling Blast . . . well that extra hit is just wasted on your auto attacks with a 2H weapon, but DW, it'll help you land a few more hits per minute.
    Two issues I see with this:

    1) How do you figure that @ 270 hit you are going to miss only 20% of the time as DW when the white hit cap is nearly 900?

    2) I'm not saying that you cannot physically stack enough stats to ramp your threat generation as DW; my issue is the opportunity cost. I have yet to read a post which advocates DW tanking but does not admit the losses in exchange for the extra hit/spell hit that is necessary for that style. I definitely think DW tanking becomes more viable the more you outgear the instance, but I'm extremely curious to see how many tanks are really going to try DW right off the bat when Ulduar goes live.

    I think you make a good point regarding carrying the 2h wep with you for certain fights...obviously if you're fighting a caster boss whose melee hits are laughable then parry gibbing won't really be an issue at all. I also think dual spec will make this more viable if you wanted to go down that route and have one spec devoted to 2h and the other DW--just a thought.
    Last edited by Thaanatos; 04-07-2009 at 10:51 AM. Reason: grammar

  16. #496
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    Celchu:
    Howling Blast is interesting. For starters it does more damage without FF (no longer requires it), but the CD is 8 sec. To go with that Rime now procs off Obliterate (only, not IT) and when it procs it finishes the CD so you can use it right away.

    They are finally finally finally fixing the third disease problem for Unholy. Now each Unholy knight can have their third disease effectually on the target for their own bonuses, though obviously the effect doesn't stack.

    For Thanatos:
    270 hit rating = 8.2% to hit, dual wielding vs a boss is a 27% miss chance for white swings, so 270 hit rating would leave you with a 18.8% chance to miss with your white swings.

    The reason I made the post above was just to highlight one small part of the discussion. It is a not uncommon belief that in order to make dual wielding comparable even to white dmg with a 2h that you need loads of hit. What I tried to demonstrate was that even at equivalent hit values dual wielding starts a decent margin ahead on white dmg (which is a big part of what has to counter the loss in strike dmg). The perk of dual wielding in terms of threat, is that you can in fact continue to stack hit and get more white dmg value in your threat, which may surpass the 2h potential, though that entirely depends on your spec and rotation, and has all sorts of asterisks, as every style does.

    If anyone has a dual wield spec they trust in, I could use a WWS to create a rough estimate of the dual wield value compared to a roughly identical 2h value.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  17. #497
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    Wanted to get some advice on my build below..

    Stephinroth - Dark Iron


    Currently this is my Frost Tank Build.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I frequently fill the roll of OT for my guilds 10 man naxx and OT for doing 25 man naxx as well. That being said, i get called upon to MT "Momma Said Knock You Out" or things like Maxx's web wrap due to the IBF mitigation.

    The roll I'm trying to fill is that of the OT obviously, but as well as an AOE tank. I have zero problems with AOE threat, as i have Rime, Plus Howling Blast along with Corpse Explode.

    However last night when I was tanking Naxx i had a DPS pull threat on me while tanking Maxx. I typically do about 1-1.3k dps on most fights while i do about 5-7k dps on trash pulls. Based on a earlier vault run I had done, I was doing about 700-800 tps, so i know clearly something is wrong.

    WWS Stats

    The below is the build that i'm looking at moving too. This build will give me less AOE threat, but more then likly additional single target threat with the + to crit from Subversion, along with additional damage output from Two-Handed Spec

    Purposed Build:


    So I'm looking for some advice, I know I need to work on my hit and will be doing that when I get home from work. If you think it's a gear issue/gemming issue or just a LTP issue, I'm open to all aspects.


    Ohh typical single target rotation is.

    IT, PS, BS, BS, OB, OB, <RP Dump HB/FS depending on what i'm tanking>

    AOE rotation

    DND, IT, Pest, HB, Corpse Explode as soon as a targets dead

    After the above AOE rotation everything is stuck like glue to me, to the point the other tanks have issues taunting things off.

    Thanks in Advance

    Steph
    Last edited by Stephinrothdr; 04-08-2009 at 01:55 PM.

  18. #498
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    Did you forget to turn on frost pressence? I have done that a few times after having to go DPS for a boss fight

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celchu View Post
    Did you forget to turn on frost pressence? I have done that a few times after having to go DPS for a boss fight
    Yeah, i had frost presence on for sure. i was sitting around 34k health

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    For Thanatos:
    270 hit rating = 8.2% to hit, dual wielding vs a boss is a 27% miss chance for white swings, so 270 hit rating would leave you with a 18.8% chance to miss with your white swings.

    The reason I made the post above was just to highlight one small part of the discussion. It is a not uncommon belief that in order to make dual wielding comparable even to white dmg with a 2h that you need loads of hit. What I tried to demonstrate was that even at equivalent hit values dual wielding starts a decent margin ahead on white dmg (which is a big part of what has to counter the loss in strike dmg). The perk of dual wielding in terms of threat, is that you can in fact continue to stack hit and get more white dmg value in your threat, which may surpass the 2h potential, though that entirely depends on your spec and rotation, and has all sorts of asterisks, as every style does.
    Ah yeah, good point. I did the math wrong or suffered a period of stupidity or w/e reason. That makes sense on the numbers. So, let's talk some basic numbers because I too am curious about what a DW compared to 2H spec looks like.

    Right now, I am (all unbuffed) soft xpertise capped, 7% hit (hit capped w/ stat food), around 47% passive avoidance (that's just parry and dodge), about 31.5k health and nearly 30k armor. So, let's say I wanted to move to DW from 2h. Obviously, I would probably want more hit and xpertise..perhaps maybe even some haste depending on how my threat generation looked. Now, my question is this: how much are these other aforementioned stats going to drop in order for me to pick up the essentials to make DW a viable build?

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