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Thread: Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

  1. #461
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    Reply to tank talents

    I must disagree with your single target frost tanking tree.
    Im a frost DK tank, and so far the most important thing you've left out is the CD reduction on Death and Decay. Im not sure if your aware but Death and Decay is the main threat from a DK, that and rune strike.

    I know ppl would rather put their talents into something that will give them a bit more dps but the best way i found tanking is by using Death and Decay alot, i can also AoE tank in my frost spec and ive found it easier on myself and the healer. Howling blast is also a main threat generator, mine crits for 5-7k 10man raid buffed and up to 9k 25man.
    I find myself generating more threat, more quickly then even the experienced pally and warrior tanks in my guild. Rotation is Dark command, DnD, iceytouch and plague strike, then when howling blast is ready my threat over takes any that are near me. Only bad thing about howling blast is that they havent fix the CD on it, it was sposed to be a non CD move and only use the runes.
    Please feel free to reply to this or send me an email and check out my talent setting on wow armory, ive spent about 9-11 hours perfecting my tanking tree and pattern and so far this has been the best for survival, threat and DPS.
    25man raids i turn out about 2.3k dps in my current spec

  2. #462
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    @chelcu

    I see you are only on 526 def and with the icy touch sigil that will be 536 which will not make you def capped.

    i would switch 1 or 2 gems to def gems or try to get the def trinket from naxx, or switch your runeforge to stoneskin gargoyle which is extra stam and def which i think is better for a tank then the extra str from fallen crusader.

    the builds looks solid and should indeed be a nice TPS, just know that is there is a unholy DPS dk in your raid you are gimping his DPS with you using Ebon Plaguebringer.

    @krumpit
    Blizz already said that it was a error in the patch notes that HB wouldn't get a CD and that it infact is how blizz wants it to be with a 5sec CD.

  3. #463
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    Krumpit, your view is highly subjective and short-sighted.

    DnD can be a serious threat value, from any spec, if you take the CD reduction, the glyph, and use it frequently. It is NOT necessarily that value for everyone, and it is very easy to tank as Frost without it. Rather than spending 3 pts on half a talent to use an ability that will lock out half your runes every 15 sec, you can play up all the buffs on HB, play it into your rotation, and even just being able to IT more often will buff that with additional Rime procs.

    Furthermore, with a declared "single target threat" frost build, DnD can be just about entirely benched.

    Not taking the CD reduction does not actually change anything other than potential uptime for DnD as Frost. It cuts it from 67% uptime to a 33% uptime, assuming you actually have 3 runes ready when the CD comes up, and only if you actually use it on CD which you may want to pay closer attention to whether or not you do.

    Those are 3 pts I'd easily put anywhere else as Frost, but everyone has their style. Just do me a favor and don't peddle yours as the "be-all-end-all if only they could see" spec.
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  4. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infamouse View Post
    @chelcu

    I see you are only on 526 def and with the icy touch sigil that will be 536 which will not make you def capped.

    i would switch 1 or 2 gems to def gems or try to get the def trinket from naxx, or switch your runeforge to stoneskin gargoyle which is extra stam and def which i think is better for a tank then the extra str from fallen crusader.

    the builds looks solid and should indeed be a nice TPS, just know that is there is a unholy DPS dk in your raid you are gimping his DPS with you using Ebon Plaguebringer.

    @krumpit
    Blizz already said that it was a error in the patch notes that HB wouldn't get a CD and that it infact is how blizz wants it to be with a 5sec CD.

    Actually I mentioned in my post that there was a error with my armory link, and it was showing mirror of truth instead of seal of pantheon. when I am in all my tank gear I am at 551 Def. I did mention that there is another unholy DK, and judging by the raid numbers from friday night, I am not effecting his DPS at all, they are about the same when I was frost tanking. One thing that struck me right away was that this build is not as spikey as the frost build I was using. with HB I was pulling 3-4k DPS on trash, but my boss DPS was usually 1.8-2k. Now everything is around 2.5k-3k a little more when I put on my DPS gear. All in all I am happy with the build, I feel less like a tank and more like a battle ship, able to dish out the pain as well as take a good amount of damage

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    . . . and IT/HB having spell hit chances would be a little more demanding on bosses for good hit rating. . . .
    Absolutely. Which means a lot of Hit rating to approach the spell hit cap which could be wasted on most of your attacks. Dual Wielding absorbs that nicely, making the extra Hit only wasted on your strikes. And dual wielding, especially with the lower miss chance from all that hit rating, will also help proc the all important (for Howling Blast reliant Frost) Killing Machines a little more often.

    I understand there are some valid arguements against DW tanking . . . but there are also some things that just run a little more efficiently with it.

    I mean, I wouldn't recommend stacking on hit until your auto attacks can't miss (dual wielding). I'm sure there are stats that are more useful than just getting your (relatively) low damage auto attacks to land. But having Howling Blast hit is essential for Frost tanking. Choosing a melee style that compliments the stats your going to put a lot into anyway seems like a smart idea.
    Last edited by Jack; 03-30-2009 at 11:22 AM.

  6. #466
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    I actually dps'd Naxx over the weekend as Frost (2h) and with a Spriest in the group and ~6.89% melee hit from gear (+1% for racial), and didn't miss with IT or HB. I was surprised actually since that's still only 12.6% spell hit with Misery (and no Virulence). That was on a full-clear, bosses included. There's got to be something I'm missing, but there aren't any other hit buffs I could get that I don't have or passed on.


    As for tanking, I'd be careful how much you stack hit or build yourself into wanting to. If you MUST for the sake of your threat, you're in trouble if you have to trade too much survival. I haven't gotten to rigorously raid test the survival changes in 3.1, but it is going to be a bit of a nerf from before, so you should be ready to take a more active concern in your defensive stats and abilities.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #467
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    From deep frost to unholy

    This thread has been very nice to read especially after the constant headaches of trying to digest the math-laden posts on elitistjerks. That being said, I have found myself MTing every piece of content (xcept Sarth 3d) as deep frost. The spec has worked for me for the most part but my early concerns with the build were not alleviated as I geared up like I hoped they would. My deep frost spec here. My guild clears 25 Maly, 25 Naxx in about 4.5 hours and we're currently working on Sarth 2d. Obviously, I spend most of my raid time in Naxx because it's so long, and here are my two main issues:
    • Threat. Recently, I macro'd in RS into nearly every ability and that helped a lot. But, as was stated earlier in this thread, DKs are weak in terms of establishing initial threat. I often ask my raid (to be safe) for 10 seconds alone w/ Sapphirion in Naxx because once you pull aggro off of me, you're basically dead since I can't taunt her off you. Threat now is fine unless I have to move the boss or do any other action or establish initial position rather than walking up there and tanking the boss where it stands. When I have to move, I am trying to hold threat at the same time while ranged dps continues to ramp their damage. Also, AOE threat is a huge concern specifically on bosses like Gothik particularly when your raid doesn't listen to you and comes out of the corner hero-style and gets killed. Many posts have already discussed how frost's aoe tanking is less than ideal.
    • Health spiking. This is the number one problem with frost tanking. Yes, we have UA, but let's consider that for a moment. When I am fully raid buffed and I pop UA, my armor soars over the cap to about 53k. I believe the armor cap is somewhere around 45 or 48k (it's 75%). So, I am using one of my cds to help mitigate the damage when much of it is wasted. Plus, it is a cd that cannot always be up (obviously). Other than this talent, what do frost DKs have to mitigate physical damage to prevent spiking? Obviously toughness is a must, but most tank builds already incorporate that and switching to unholy or blood will most likely still mean you keep toughness. Lichborne does not mitigate damage but increases the mob's chance to miss you. What I am talking about here with health spiking is when you do get hit (which you will). As you know, we don't use shields so when we are hit we basically have armor which is capped @ 75% and then very little to lessen the damage. Frigid dreadplate has the same issue as Lichborne. Plus, I believe earlier in this thread someone said that dodge>parry>miss. Granted, FD gives 3% increased miss chance but again that does not solve the problem of "when I get hit, how do I deal with the damage?" At this time, I do not see an answer to that question when solely looking in the frost tree.
    Unbuffed, I walk around with about 48% parry/dodge combined, 29k armor, 30.5k health and def capped (of course). Here's my full armory profile. I recently learned more about avoidance dr so I will toss my parry gems away for more dodge. As I see it, switching to unholy build will reap the following benefits:
    • Increased aoe threat. As I said above, I am normally fine on ST threat unless I have to move or a dps goes nuts from the start and pulls the boss or unforseen circumstances. AOE threat is where I have major issues, and from what I've read, unholy will alleviate this concern with talents like UB.
    • More steady damage mitigation. Bone shield is only 20% less damage, but that's a lot when you're talking about near-30k hatefuls from Patchwerk or 25k arcane breaths off Maly. With my high avoidance, keeping up the charges especially w/ the glyph shouldn't be an issue. I completely agree with others when they say that frost is very good earlier on and unholy becomes more viable the better geared you are. Right now, I am 4/5 valorous (dropped the gloves for better ones out of 25 naxx). I may also switch around some tanking gear with less avoidance and more hit (my xpertise is fine).
    • Self healing. I never thought about Lichborne + spam coil, but this aside, I am probably going to grab the perm ghoul. This way, I can suck health from my pet if I feel the healers aren't on the ball or something weird is going on. ST threat wise, I get the full effect of healing anyway.
    • Decreased damage from magic. This is because I did not go acclimation in frost but I will be placing 5 pts in magic suppression. This is partly for bosses like Sapph when magic damage is high and you cannot taunt the boss. I'll be able to dps through the air phase without fear of dying (max FR gear).
    • More health. With 2% more stamina (I'm also a tauren), that's even more health I will have which will only become better with future tiers as our health goes up and up.
    Here is the unholy spec I plan on using. I have basically taken the popular builds and modified them slightly. For one thing, I think 2h wep spec has served me well in the past and will continue to do so. For the purposes of MT, I don't believe icy reach in the frost tree is worth it when the mob will be right on my jewels the whole time (plus I never used it in my frost spec as you can see above). Most of the other talent choices are pretty standard. Desecration isn't that great because, as the post over on elitistjerks points out, you don't really get +5% damage for 5 talent points, it's something like 2.7% damage I think. I think this way the synergy between my blood and unholy abilities is pretty good (speaking specifically to the ap gains and applications).

    As far as DW tanking goes, I do not even consider it mainly because (though it doesn't seem to be nearly as bad as it was in BC for some reason) parry gibbing still sux when it happens and the obvious concern about stacking hit when we already have so many other stats to worry about is still there. Hit cap with 2h is 8% (about 270 hit I believe) while doing the same thing with DW is 25% or something to that effect which is about 900 hit rating (no thx). Yes, tanks will never approach that, but it's still high to push miss near the edge of the table when fighting bosses. For those unfamiliar with parry gibbing, whenever the boss parries your attack, it receives a slight haste buff to its next swing depending on how long till that next swing occurs. Thus, it is possible to get hit twice (or more) very quickly in a row with little-to-no time for healers to catch up. Now, at this point, people are probably going to reply saying that parry gibbing isn't an issue because you can stack xpertise. True, but do you have 12% xpertise to throw parry off the table? Your dodge xpertise cap is much less (around 4-4.5%, can't remember which). One last word about threat with DW: look at your recount results after boss fights and see where all your damage is coming from. A great deal of it still comes from white damage (auto attacks). Do you really want more of these missing than necessary? This brings me to my next point regarding itemization. Many people think that because you have two weapons, you get double the ipoints than if you wield 2h weapons. This is untrue. Take Inevitable Defeat for example. Best in slot atm for 2h tanking. 100 str, 80 agi, 120 stam, 79 xpertise. Now, look at Red Sword of Courage and Last Laugh. Together, 62 str, 131 stam, 50 hit, 69 def and 34 parry. Sure, these two together are fairly comparable to the single 2h weapon, but they do not double the benefits of it. In other words, one single 2h weapon has significantly more ilevels than a single 1h weapon and roughly comparable to 2 x 1h weapons (this is besides the fact that at this level of tanking, you do not need to rely on your weapons for defense although you may choose to regem/chant in spite of def from weapons).

    To sum up, DK tanking spec is left up to the play style of the tank, no question. For me, I have been satisfied but not pleased with deep frost for a long time now. Since I am for the most part at that end-game stage (insofar as current content is concerned) I feel the need to try something else. If it doesn't work, I'll obviously switch back. Moreover, this is also partly due to the patch notes for 3.1 seeing that UA, on top of throwing me over the armor cap, will now have a 2 min cd (up from 1 min), although I think Bone Shield is suffering the same fate. Combined with HB being thrown to the bottom of the frost tree, it makes the tree that much more unattractive.

    The plan for this week is to tank some heroics with my new spec and then 25 maly/2d sarth/undying run on Friday night, 25 naxx on sat night. Apolgies in advance for the unsolidified numbers in several places. I'll reply to this thread again and let you all know how it works out. Until then...
    Last edited by Thaanatos; 03-31-2009 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Heh, guess I figured out how to make items show up in the text.

  8. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celchu View Post
    Actually I mentioned in my post that there was a error with my armory link, and it was showing mirror of truth instead of seal of pantheon. when I am in all my tank gear I am at 551 Def. I did mention that there is another unholy DK, and judging by the raid numbers from friday night, I am not effecting his DPS at all, they are about the same when I was frost tanking. One thing that struck me right away was that this build is not as spikey as the frost build I was using. with HB I was pulling 3-4k DPS on trash, but my boss DPS was usually 1.8-2k. Now everything is around 2.5k-3k a little more when I put on my DPS gear. All in all I am happy with the build, I feel less like a tank and more like a battle ship, able to dish out the pain as well as take a good amount of damage
    Sry missed that about the armory.

    ofc your dps will not do more dps if you still have ebon plaguebringer.
    the case is that as a tank you nearly always have ebon plague up before the melee DK therefore the melee dk will not get the benefit of the 3rd disease on his SS and such. i respecced 2 days ago after lots of dummy testing with our Unholy DK into a unholy build that does not take ebon plaguebringer or crypt fever. and instead i take necrosis and BCB. i noticed that my aoe threat is a little less with this but my single target TPS is about even. and the DPS Dk is doing a lot more DPS now think it was a difference of 200+ dps on dummy. and we will see tonight in naxx what the dps difference fully raid buffed would be.

    this is a summary of what i am using atm.
    and running all content with this except S3D MT but i use this also for the Add tank spec.
    Blood (12 points)

    5/5 Blade Barrier
    5/5 Bladed Armor
    2/2 Two-Handed Weapon Specialization

    Frost (8 points)

    3/3 Improved Icy Touch
    5/5 Toughness

    Unholy (51 points)

    2/2 Vicious Strikes
    3/3 Morbidity
    5/5 Anticipation
    2/2 Epidemic
    1/3 Virulence
    2/2 Unholy Command
    3/3 Ravenous Dead
    3/3 Outbreak
    5/5 Necrosis
    3/3 Blood-Caked Blade
    1/1 Shadow of Death
    5/5 Impurity
    2/2 Dirge
    3/3 Reaping
    1/1 Bone Shield
    3/3 Wandering Plague
    1/1 Scourge Strike
    5/5 Rage of Rivendare
    1/1 Unholy Blight

  9. #469
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    Well things got even more interesting last night when we started our raid. Lo and behold we have a 3rd DK and guess what he is also deep unholy (17/0/54). The funny thing is I really didn't see EP up on targets that I wasn't attacking. Even when i wasn't tanking and was joining in on the DPS fun I was the one putting EP up on targets.

    Last Night we did Sarth +1D and the Construct Wing

    My Avg DPS was 3.2K ( and that was with dying 30secs into the patch fight, nothing like hearing a healer say oops sorry on vent ) the only fight I switched to my DPS gear was Thaddius. Also I was on add duty for Gluth which lowered my DPS ( once again I was greated by a oops sorry from my healer just as we were about to down him which resulted in my death again )

    Now that we are running 3 DKs, I think we are going to have to figure out what specs we are going to run. would be nice to have 3 different DK auras up all the time.

  10. #470
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    Quick follow up

    So I respecced to unholy yesterday from deep frost and I am really liking it thus far. There are also two other things I discovered in the course of running some heroics and doing some test dummy tests:

    1) I forgot to mention the frost glyphs I was using in my original post--namely UA which did account for some of the excess armor above cap but not all of it.
    2) I thought that Death Coil healed me instead of my minion so just scratch the stuff I said about healing myself, etc etc (since I don't have Lichborne in my build). It may just be me but when it says "heals x damage from a friendly undead target" I assumed that meant the healing was going towards me away from the undead target, not the other way around.

    Anyway, I did rechant a bit and regemmed a lot after making the switch. So, partly due to my spec change and partly due to what I learned about parry dr, here's how I came out on the stat side of things:
    • +1k armor
    • +1.5k health
    • +2% passive avoidance (I lost 2% parry and gained about 4% dodge)
    • I am near hit capped
    • I am soft xpertise capped
    • I think I lost 1k ap
    Here is my new armory profile. In terms of tanking, I really like the boost to aoe threat I now get from unholy. Single target honestly isn't that bad (although I have yet to do any serious raiding as this spec). I'll report back early next week after my sarth 2d, 25 maly, 25 naxx, undying runs. Until then..

  11. #471
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    Could someone vet this 13/5/53 Unholy tanking talent build? I realise that I've taken some non conventional talents such as Gargoyle and Master of Ghouls but I'm currently leveling while tanking at the same time so they provide some help with quests.

    Perhaps these questions have been asked alot but I've not been able to get a proper response.
    1. Does Necrosis or BCB proc on Rune Strikes?
    2. Which would you take over the other - Necrosis or BCB?
    3. What is the reasoning behind the choice above?
    4. Why do many Unholy builds refrain from taking Virulence?

    Hopefully my questions will bring forth answers and hopefully an intelligent discussion.
    Little by little, one travels far.

  12. #472
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    BCB and Necrosis only proc on auto attacks, personally and from the testing I have done so far, I would take Necrosis over BCB IF i had to choose, as for not taking Virulence, its more DPS oriented then Tanking oriented.

    As for my choice, I noticed some nice damage numbers from Necrosis as compared to BCB.

    I will post some numbers tonight after Naxx to back up my findings

  13. #473
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    Necrosis applies to auto-attacks, RS's, and Blood-caked strikes (BcB procs).

    Necrosis is the one I would take first as it is solid damage buffing and has no drawbacks and can't be countered (except by the rare shadow resist that you don't really see in raids). BcB generates extra strikes that can be dodged/parried/miss, if you're hit capped and over the exp soft cap that won't make a big difference, but I'd still favor Necrosis for the unfaltering reliability. They do synergize though as the extra swings will rack up bonus Necrosis hits.

    Personally, currently, I do not take either in favor of buffing the heck out of my aoe threat which works just fine on single targets as well bolstered with ScS and RS galore (and auto-attacks usually amount to 14% of my total damage even factoring all the aoe pulls).


    Virulence is a tricky number. Believe me I've crunched a lot of parses on this. Here's the skinny as a deep unholy tank:
    Melee hit chance (8% cap on raid boss) = -ScS, RS, BS, PS, auto-attack, Pest (apparently)
    Spell hit chance (17% cap on raid boss) = IT, DC
    Odd middle ground cap = UB, DnD

    I sit at the melee hit cap with hit rating and racial, and I don't miss any of the items in the first category and they're most of the top dmg sources. With the second category I have a 2.4-3.0% miss chance on raid bosses only (bear in mind a lvl 82 has a 5.4% melee and 6% spell miss chance) with a spriest in the raid (boomkin work too) and neither is a major source of damage/threat. Category three is a major damage constituent, but it doesn't seem to follow the spell cap. I usually have only a 1% miss rate on 4-6k ticks (remember both tick per 1 sec). All virulence would represent is a small improvement in hit for two items that are small threat factors. Also remember that a IT miss is one Frost rune that will recharge immediately, not in 10 sec.

    Virulence would be of more value if you don't run with a boomkin or spriest, and then only on bosses, so if you aren't MT'ing it's not a big deal.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #474
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    Thank you so much for such an informative post!

    Now for another question - due to the situation where I consistently am unable to access the armoury, could you explain how you would take talent points to allow you to "I do not take either in favor of buffing the heck out of my aoe threat which works just fine on single targets as well bolstered with ScS and RS galore...."? I cant seem to be able to find a place to put those talent points which would maximise the AOE threat.
    Last edited by Fumblecheese; 04-03-2009 at 02:36 AM. Reason: clarity
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  15. #475
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    Things to keep in mind with Thaanatos' post. This has a lot of 3.1 in mind.

    Nitpick: You linked a Frost build when talking about your unholy build.

    I'll also preface this with It's all up to your style. If you enjoy the style of Unholy, then by all means, stick with it. I think it's good to know and understand all 3 specs, because there will be encounters (especially hard modes) that will really play to the strengths of one spec over another.

    Anyway, I was Unholy for a while, and have since switched to frost.

    Frost has more avoidance and less passive mitigation of the 3 trees on live. This will change come 3.1. 5% passive damage reduction due to the new BB on all specs, and you'll get another 2% should you go improved frost presence. I haven't tested it (but I think I will now), but you should still be able to Death Coil yourself with the new Lichborne. Fairly lackluster still, but anyway...

    Sapphiron is a pain to tank as frost. I get higher resist/miss rates vs Sapphiron as frost than I do as unholy. Other than that, my single target threat as frost is significantly higher than when I was unholy. I can break 10,000 TPS as Frost (9000 for the entire fight.. probably more since I'm using a VotTW build), it was very difficult for me to do as unholy.

    As far as the "snap aggro" thing, I can relate. I went to cover for Lore for a 5 minute (this was before the change) 10-man malygos, and they were blowing cooldowns as they were expecting two ranks of SoR + whatever else he opens with. Even if everything connected, they were ripping aggro off of me. This changes significantly with the change to HB in 3.1 - pre-pull pop deathchill, then open with a HB. DK's now have a SS/SoR equivalent to open fights with.

    On another note, I think I'm going to do some research on the DnD+Morbidity as frost thing. My role officer and I keep having a discussion about it, and while for 3 runes it's probably the highest threat, it's only looking at a piece of the picture. Lack of RP from chaining Obliterates/Scourge strikes (assuming 2/2 Dirge/Chill of the Grave) and other things I think hurts that theory. Plus the fact that it's "clunky", and hard to fit in a normal rotation.
    Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. -Seneca
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  16. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttocs View Post
    Things to keep in mind with Thaanatos' post. This has a lot of 3.1 in mind.


    Sapphiron is a pain to tank as frost. I get higher resist/miss rates vs Sapphiron as frost than I do as unholy. Other than that, my single target threat as frost is significantly higher than when I was unholy. I can break 10,000 TPS as Frost (9000 for the entire fight.. probably more since I'm using a VotTW build), it was very difficult for me to do as unholy.

    Ttocs is absolutely right. As the only real active (main)tank in my entire guild (yikes!) I am completely focused now on the content we haven't done yet (3d sarth for instance) but more so w/ Ulduar. I've heard rumors 3.1 could hit as early as next Tuesday so not a whole lot of time left. Additionally, if you're unholy and specced for it, you can just stay right where you are during air phase on Sapphirion, soak the blast, and continue to build ST threat the entire time. Again, so far Unholy has really been working for me though I need to further hone my rotation and test it a bit more in end-game content. I do not advise switching to unholy from deep frost until you have the gear to do so. After tanking some heroics, here's two slight issues with unholy:

    1) Gaps in between bone shield. Not sure exactly how to deal with this except maybe get more lucky with hits? Self-buffed I go over 50% passive avoidance and the more buffs the better. It's glyphed so that's six charges in a minute (10 sec / hit). I'm also not certain if it's possible to go a full minute in the current content and still have 1+ charges up.

    2) Sometimes, I find myself with every ability on cd for 3-4 seconds and no buttons to press which is rather unnerving. Still, the vast majority of the time, even with this lull, I'm fine on threat.

    I'll be sure to report back probably this Sunday after my full weekend of raiding.

  17. #477
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    For Fumblecheese,
    The synergy in Unholy for the sake of AoE threat uses the following compounding talents and skills:
    Moves: Unholy Blight, DnD, Diseases, Blood Boil, Corpse Explosion

    To support that, you want the following talents:
    Morbidity = let's you use DnD on CD for longer aoe pulls, though admittedly my DPS section has gotten silly and aoe pulls don't last more than 15 secs
    Epidemic = is nice for stretching out diseases. It's not necessary but it opens up your rotation to fit more space between reapplications (IT/PS or disease juggling).
    Outbreak (pre-3.1) = boosts BB dmg and that is a lovely way to hammer out blood runes on groups
    Corpse Explosion = this is the best way to spend 40 RP on a group of 2 or larger depending on fight duration. Provided there is less than 10 sec left in the fight CE will do more damage in one shot than UB will ticking out. CE is also always better burst threat (duh, right?). Mine hits for about 1200-1500 non crit on unlimited targets.
    Impurity = this is a quality buff to all the constituents listed above. It may seem a little odd or weak, but it is very good for improving the value of AP to Unholy aoe focus.
    Crypt Fever+Ebon Plaguebringer = this is going to crank your disease damage up and increase all the components above with the +spell dmg.
    Rage of Rivendare = This flat damage boost from just having Blood Plague up is very significant.
    Unholy Blight = nothing does more damage in total if it runs for it's full 20 sec duration. Not DC, not CE regardless of targets. This makes you a walking aoe threat zone. Even on single targets keep it up at all times. The only reason I wouldn't use this as soon as you have the RP is if you're aoe'ing trash and need snap threat or if the fight won't last long enough. Remember in the threat game damage is secondary to threat, so the big threat up front could buy you all you need to get through the fight.
    Bladed Armor = as a tank this represents a major amount of AP with all of our armor. Combined with Impurity AP is a huge boost to threat.
    Dirge = I am a big fan because of this for the bonus threat from the RP gain, and that this build can really benefit from piles of RP to the point of keeping UB up as often as possible, and using CE on cooldown. Dirge generally does that for me even with RS being used on CD.
    Imp Icy Touch = this has little to do with maintaining the aoe threat, but I highly recommend it for the de-hasting (and the IT threat buff doesn't hurt). DK's can apply and maintain that de-haste better than any other tank.

    Necrosis and BcB are fine threat buffs, but main target only. You can use that to your advantage, but I trade them for more buffing to my aoe threat. I have no problems whatsoever with single target threat, I MT bosses frequently and don't lose threat.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #478
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    171
    Satorri, some rough numbers for unholy from the PTR show for single target boss tanking.

    The 10/10/51 build is putting out the best threat atm

    BCB is averaging 1.5-1.8% of total dps per point spent
    Necrosis is averaging .9-1.1% of total dps per point spent
    Scourge strike is accounting for 35-40% of total damage (glyphed)
    Death Coil is accounting for 12-15% of total damage (glyphed + 3/3 talented)
    Unholy Blight is accounting for 11-14% of total damage (glyphed)
    Melee Swing is accounting for 20-23% of total damage

    The 3.1 Unholy Single Target Raid build will generally give you 10/5/50
    with 6 points to manipulate...

    What I have been looking at to try to find out through testing is net gains per point spent for the following:

    Black Ice 1 point = 2% Frost and Shadow "Effects SS,PS,UB,DC" (EFFECTS ~65% of outgoing damage)
    Necrosis 1 point = 4% Melee Damage (CURRENTLY BROKEN ON PTR TESTING)
    Blade Caked Barrier 1 Point = 1.5% of Total Damage = 23.55 dps
    2 Handed Weapon Spec 1 Point = 2% Weapon Damage "Effects SS,PS,Melee,RS" (EFFECTS ~ 65% of outgoing damage)
    Desecration 1 point = 1% Total Damage Increase
    Morbidity 1 point = 5% DC Damage Increase
    Ravenous Dead 1 point = 1% Strength = 10.4 Str = 21 AP
    Virulence 1 point = 1% spell hit

    Depending on RP generation come 3.1 the numbers we see from these abilities will change
    Last edited by Merko; 04-03-2009 at 08:44 AM.

  19. #479
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Yeah, they neutered Unholy a little bit on aoe, nothing terrible, but bumped up the single target. Vicious Strikes and Outbreak now buff PS (which hits a bit harder) and ScS (which hits harder still), and it's a lot easier to slip Necrosis and/or BcB into reasonable tank builds.

    Merk! I was wondering where you'd disappeared to. =) I'm going to laugh hard if you end up tanking as Unholy and I switch to Blood. Always filling the field I guess. =)

    And thanks for the numbers, that's the sort of stuff I love to see. I'm looking forward to Ulduar gear, the Str/Stam numbers take a great step up.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  20. #480
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    171
    yeah... I kinda did the spectator thing for the last month but now with 3.1 coming out back to number crunching

    With the direction blizzard is going w/ its Heroic Hard Mode stat distribution on tank gear the Str we will see on some tanks is really going to change the way tanks look at gearing. As guilds start farming all the Hard Modes I don't think it will be unreasonable to see WWS reports with tanks in the 3 to 4k+ dps range on a boss fight(not on just a burn fight like patchwerk.)

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