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Thread: Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

  1. #401
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    28
    Hey All,

    Long time reader, first post here.

    Here is my armory - The World of Warcraft Armory (P.S. - it doesnt appear I logged in frost prexence, but my armor is at 28163, I also have glyph of unbreakable armor,+15% armor, but it appears to be broken.... ironic.) I also have a deaths bite, and a titansteel destroyer, but I find i get more avoidance with this weapon.)

    Here is a direct link to my talent spec - Unholy Tank - AOE focus- Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I have been finding in 10man content I have a hard time with TPS.... I spike... at best around 4k(not very often) lowest, 1K, and average of about 2200.

    This isnt very good in my opinion as I have mages especially up my ass for threat. I run with people that are doing 3.5k dps in 10mans, without out using consumables and flasking... We have a titan's grasp warrior with dual betrayers that rapes the damage meter... it is near impossible to tank for him in a 10man...

    Anyway, once i get into a 25man, I can stay at about 5k steady TPS, and when I go balls out, I can maintain 6k with 7-9k tps spikes.

    I am not seeing why there is such a great difference, i know there are more buffs and whatnot, but it doesn't seem like a scaled difference.

    My aoe TPS gets killed by protadins, and my single target gets killed by warriors/druids.

    I know my gear is good enough, I was able to solo tank the KT fight in naxx 10(adds and all) with a 9 man group, and only 2 healers, but what/how can I gem/chant differently that will help my TPS, while maintaining enough HP to easily MT 25man content.

    Right now im at 29.5khp unbuffed. in 25man with full raid buffs I hit about 36kHP, and in boss fight with trinkets and what not, I can hit 39K HP.

    I know I have 2 wasted points in pale horse when it comes to tanking.... but this is my alt(which is becoming my main rather quickly), and she is a miner... so it makes life easier. If i can figure out how to generate more threat, and "snap agro" it would be excellent.

    Help!

    Thanks a ton in advance for any advice/suggestions.

    Regards,

    Grayc
    Last edited by Grayc; 03-02-2009 at 01:22 PM.

  2. #402
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    Mar 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayc View Post
    Hey All,

    Long time reader, first post here.

    Here is my armory - The World of Warcraft Armory (P.S. - it doesnt appear I logged in frost prexence, but my armor is at 28163, I also have glyph of unbreakable armor,+15% armor, but it appears to be broken.... ironic.) I also have a deaths bite, and a titansteel destroyer, but I find i get more avoidance with this weapon.)

    Here is a direct link to my talent spec - Unholy Tank - AOE focus- Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I have been finding in 10man content I have a hard time with TPS.... I spike... at best around 4k(not very often) lowest, 1K, and average of about 2200.

    This isnt very good in my opinion as I have mages especially up my ass for threat. I run with people that are doing 3.5k dps in 10mans, without out using consumables and flasking... We have a titan's grasp warrior with dual betrayers that rapes the damage meter... it is near impossible to tank for him in a 10man...

    Anyway, once i get into a 25man, I can stay at about 5k steady TPS, and when I go balls out, I can maintain 6k with 7-9k tps spikes.

    I am not seeing why there is such a great difference, i know there are more buffs and whatnot, but it doesn't seem like a scaled difference.

    My aoe TPS gets killed by protadins, and my single target gets killed by warriors/druids.

    I know my gear is good enough, I was able to solo tank the KT fight in naxx 10(adds and all) with a 9 man group, and only 2 healers, but what/how can I gem/chant differently that will help my TPS, while maintaining enough HP to easily MT 25man content.

    Right now im at 29.5khp unbuffed. in 25man with full raid buffs I hit about 36kHP, and in boss fight with trinkets and what not, I can hit 39K HP.

    I know I have 2 wasted points in pale horse when it comes to tanking.... but this is my alt(which is becoming my main rather quickly), and she is a miner... so it makes life easier. If i can figure out how to generate more threat, and "snap agro" it would be excellent.

    Help!

    Thanks a ton in advance for any advice/suggestions.

    Regards,

    Grayc
    There are many many specs on this website, I would highly suggest looking to the 3.1 patch for future planing if you are MT. But as far as spec goes I would try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and use your highest dps wep.

  3. #403
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    6
    I understand the excitement for AoE tanking with Unholy, there's TPS all over the place. That being said, as far as I know, unless your avoidance/armor is pushed way past passive DR rates, isn't frost tanking more effective?

    With frost tanking you can have 22 second down-time, (full incoming damage passive mit/avoidance discluded) over the course of 5 minutes with the correct mitigation/avoidance rotation, where as with unholy if you have a bunch of mobs on you, theres the 6charge bone shield, coupled with IBF and whatever trinkets you decide to use. In a situation like AoE tanking I like to swap out an avoidance trinket for DMC Greatness (90 str). It gives you the passive .25 parry chance (DRHT not withstanding), and passive threat with the AP mod (Base damage + (AP ◊ 0.15) = Eff. Damage).

    Now, I understand that each individual tanking spec has its ups and downs as a DK. I've just yet to come across one (Sarth 3d aside) where I didn't trump our unholy tank to the point where he's respecd. Damage in is lower on the same boss fight. Tps out is higher passive with higher spike time. As far as AoE goes, With not being specd into Imp IT I'm pushing a solid 4.5k on trash. I'm just curious what benefit it is to be unholy in a AoE tanking situation, because I can't see it.

  4. #404
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Grayc View Post
    Hey All,

    Long time reader, first post here.

    Here is my armory - The World of Warcraft Armory (P.S. - it doesnt appear I logged in frost prexence, but my armor is at 28163, I also have glyph of unbreakable armor,+15% armor, but it appears to be broken.... ironic.) I also have a deaths bite, and a titansteel destroyer, but I find i get more avoidance with this weapon.)

    Here is a direct link to my talent spec - Unholy Tank - AOE focus- Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I have been finding in 10man content I have a hard time with TPS.... I spike... at best around 4k(not very often) lowest, 1K, and average of about 2200.

    This isnt very good in my opinion as I have mages especially up my ass for threat. I run with people that are doing 3.5k dps in 10mans, without out using consumables and flasking... We have a titan's grasp warrior with dual betrayers that rapes the damage meter... it is near impossible to tank for him in a 10man...

    Anyway, once i get into a 25man, I can stay at about 5k steady TPS, and when I go balls out, I can maintain 6k with 7-9k tps spikes.

    I am not seeing why there is such a great difference, i know there are more buffs and whatnot, but it doesn't seem like a scaled difference.

    My aoe TPS gets killed by protadins, and my single target gets killed by warriors/druids.

    I know my gear is good enough, I was able to solo tank the KT fight in naxx 10(adds and all) with a 9 man group, and only 2 healers, but what/how can I gem/chant differently that will help my TPS, while maintaining enough HP to easily MT 25man content.

    Right now im at 29.5khp unbuffed. in 25man with full raid buffs I hit about 36kHP, and in boss fight with trinkets and what not, I can hit 39K HP.

    I know I have 2 wasted points in pale horse when it comes to tanking.... but this is my alt(which is becoming my main rather quickly), and she is a miner... so it makes life easier. If i can figure out how to generate more threat, and "snap agro" it would be excellent.

    Help!

    Thanks a ton in advance for any advice/suggestions.

    Regards,

    Grayc
    Hey man, the biggest problem I see off the top of my head, everything else aside, is your hit rating. Unholy is a tough spec to run with low hit rating as all TPS basis is spell damage (blood strikes, and rune strikes aside). I run frost and I'm sitting at about 8.5% potted. 8% is base hit cap for melee special abilities. Required hit on a Boss Lev 83 mob for spell(this is youfor the most part) hit is 17%. Now assuming you're specd into virulence, thats 3% offputting you at 14%, and assuming your raid with a spriest, that puts you at 11% which is a bit of a reach from your current 2.62%. That's a lot of misses, which in turn means a lot of lost TPS. I'd do what I can to work in some Vivid forest Emerald's, using elixir of accuracy, and maybe some snapper extreme to get that hit rating.

    Hope that works for ya, get back to me and good luck!

    -Mondavi

  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondavi View Post
    Hey man, the biggest problem I see off the top of my head, everything else aside, is your hit rating. Unholy is a tough spec to run with low hit rating as all TPS basis is spell damage (blood strikes, and rune strikes aside). I run frost and I'm sitting at about 8.5% potted. 8% is base hit cap for melee special abilities. Required hit on a Boss Lev 83 mob for spell(this is youfor the most part) hit is 17%. Now assuming you're specd into virulence, thats 3% offputting you at 14%, and assuming your raid with a spriest, that puts you at 11% which is a bit of a reach from your current 2.62%. That's a lot of misses, which in turn means a lot of lost TPS. I'd do what I can to work in some Vivid forest Emerald's, using elixir of accuracy, and maybe some snapper extreme to get that hit rating.

    Hope that works for ya, get back to me and good luck!

    -Mondavi
    Yes, I am always using snapper extreme, and worg tartar during raids. Normally we do have an SPriest, which helps.

    I will try out replacing some gems for hit, and see what happens. I may end up going into frost, but I havent yet, and i seem to do fine. Just want some more TPS.

    Thanks all so far for the tips, and comments :-)

  6. #406
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    Mar 2009
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    6
    Hey man, if you're looking for purely AoE threat, give this spec a run.

    Unholy Tanking

    Works on the 5% strength modifier for a higher AP conversion coefficient.

    Desecration works a lot better on paper than it does in practice. Chances of not moving from a 10yd in diameter circle in a 25 man setting while AoE tanking are few and far between. On top of that, in an Aoe tanking situation, you shouldn't have to apply diseases more than once until the last mob (tab target pestilence)

  7. #407
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    Oct 2008
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    There's a lot of talk about Desecration and how it works.

    One thing is not generally recognized in the generalization about its actual buff:
    The value is 100% in the hands of the tank and how it is used. If you aren't careful in your pacing about where you place the desecration then it can be entirely wasted, but that is in the hands of the tank, not the game. There are 2 fights only in the game that I don't get full use of the buff, Grobbulus I move too much, and Maly, if I'm MT'ing, I get half use as I continually reposition for spark placement.

    It's a choice like every other, it is not to be underestimated when it is used well.

    And ouch Modavi, an "aoe" Unholy build without Corpse Explosion? =O
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #408
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    Jan 2009
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    @Grayc: I can feel the difference between my current 6.92% hit and 8% I had with older gear. Hit cap is very important. If you have 8% and Virulence and Dranei in party, you're almost spell hit caped as well. Change your gems a little. Don't use Parry gems, use +16hit. Your current weapon gives dodge, but Titansteel Destroyer and Death's Bite have load of Hit rating. They also have higher damage, and your special abilities relay on weapon damage. Try swapping your wepon to Death's Bite, I think it is currently your best weapon.

    Also, I suggest taking 3rd point in Virulence, dropping Ravenous Death or Outbreak and taking Necrosis. Drop On a Pale Horse if you have to, but put 5 points in Necrosis. It is VERY important talent for single target threat (especially for Unholly builds). Remember that Necrosis works with your Rune Strikes.

    Another very important talent you can take is Dirge. The more avoidance you have, the more often Rune Strike you can use and the more Runic Power you need. I also took Reapening and I noticed that I can use Scourge Strike more often, it generates a lot of single target threat as well.

    I would also drop Desecration, as it doesn't help much.

    But I think that +hit will give you more TPS boost than any other changes.

    Edit: OK, Desecration is not that bad, but I think there are other, more important talents you could take on cost of Desecration
    Last edited by coe; 03-03-2009 at 09:05 AM.

  9. #409
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    Mar 2009
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    ******** Update *********
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...6&version=9626

    I was pushing a constant 8.5-9.5k tps and spiking over 10.5k

    Ideas? Thoughts?

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Inspiri View Post
    ******** Update *********
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...6&version=9626

    I was pushing a constant 8.5-9.5k tps and spiking over 10.5k

    Ideas? Thoughts?
    what buffs, on what fight, what rotation, what gear and what debuffs were on the boss?

  11. #411
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    Aye, do share details or there's nothing to talk about.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #412
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    Dec 2008
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    I do find Frost is quite a bit better than unholy. AoE Tanking as unholy is quite simple really, keep UB up, DnD when there's more than 1 mob to be tanked, keep diseases on the mobs (either by casting PS+IT or juggling Pest).

    As Frost it gets a bit complicated since your DnD has annoyingly long cooldown (No Morbidity = 30 secs DnD CD), no walk-to-mob-and-aggro a'la UB.

    However, Frost currently has the highest single target TPS (tied with blood), and very decent AoE threat (comparable to unholy). Sure unholy takes the cake for AoE fights, but its single target threat is the worst among all 3 trees.

  13. #413
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    All three trees are capable of single and multi-target threat, but with a moving balance.

    Blood = easiest single/two target threat, hardest large group threat
    Frost = easy single target threat, moderate multi-target threat
    Unholy = easiest multi-target threat, moderate single target threat

    All of that is entirely subject to talents. It is entirely possible to make an unholy based spec with hefty single target threat, and there are ways to boost aoe threat with a blood spec. Talents are important, but player skill is still more so.

    Generalizations are dangerous.

    As an aoe-centric unholy spec (no necrosis, no BcB) I've matched or passed anyone else's single target threat, including blood/frost spec'd DKs. Again, there are nuances in there, threat is not a constant, it has a profile. DK threat in general tends to start more slowly than the other tanks, but it can hit higher TPS slopes. Depending on your spec/style it can also be a jagged profile (fast tps periods and slow drops/gaps).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #414
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    Mar 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by copstack View Post
    I started putting my own together and the one I came up with seems to work much better.
    I'm going to second a post by copstack from 1/29 where he notes that the standard rotation for Frost Knight tanking:

    DnD-IT-PS-PST-HB-BB-FS-OB-HB-PST, with FS dumps when runic power is available and runes are on cooldown

    Is inferior to one he uses:

    IT-PST-HB-(dump)-HB-(dump), where the (dump) is a mix of multiple FS and/or BS depending on need for death runes

    I've paraphrased his a little bit to correspond to the rotation I use, since they're similar enough. Not only does copstack's rotation "seem to work better" as he puts it, but there's a good reason it does. It simply uses runes much more efficiently and focuses on generating big HB crits.

    DnD uses a lot of runes without generating any runic power. The problem with starting the standard rotation with such an expensive ability surfaces right after that first PST. Or more specifically, after the FS you use right there because all your runes are on cooldown. The FS isn't spelled out in the rotation, but we'll assume it's implied 'cause that's all you'll be able to do. Then that FS uses all the runic power you've generated and you've got nothin' but auto-attacks for about four seconds.

    The next problem surfaces after the HB-BB sequence. You only have one frost rune available, the other has about 8 seconds left on cooldown and frost fever is hitting its last tick. The rotation says to OB-HB, which you obviously can't so we'll assume at least one more FS is implied right there, but even so it leaves the problem of a feverless HB.

    By contrast, the copstack rotation starts off forcing a fevered HB crit (using Deathchill or KM), gets more opportunities to proc KM off BS/FS and doesn't waste runes on PS, BB or OB. Depending on runic power generation talents/glyphs there may be a second or two with no special attacks, but not more than that and possibly no downtime. Frost fever is always active and when HB is off cooldown you nearly always either have the runes to use it or are within a FS of getting them.

    Over the time required for a single standard rotation, using the copstack rotation instead you give up DnD, PS, BB and OB. But you gain two more HB, two more FS, one more application of IT and PST and two more ticks of frost fever. It ends up generating about 25% more AoE threat and more than double the AoE damage. Losing the Obliterate means a little less single targetted damage, but the increased damage that target will take by being in your AoE more than compensates.

  15. #415
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    My bad on the corpse explosion. That was just off the top of my head. I usually run as frost and have no problem holding AoE. Start of with Mark a primary target, IT, pest, in range HB, tab frost strikes on off targets, apply IT/PS to secondary target, pest agian.

    For stuff like the multi spider pulls in arachnid, and the non abomination pulls leading up to patch I start off with a D&D then run that same rotation up to the first hb.

    This is the spec I use.

    Frost, no Imp IT

  16. #416
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    Newbe Tank

    Death Knight Tanking Spec.

    Some one please tell me what a good spec is this is what i am looking for
    1. Multi Mob Tanking spec easy to learn
    2. glyphs i should for that spec
    3. Spell Roation should i use for that spec
    Any Macros . and othere stuff would also be nice thank you

  17. #417
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    Mar 2009
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    I've tried many different spec's as a DK main-tank in my guild. I pretty much have a general knowledge on the spec needed for certain instances/fights.

    The spec i've been running is:
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    Rotation:
    Single Mob: DnD-IT-PS-BS-BS rince and repeat also keep UB up. (DC, RS, UB for RP dump.)

    Multi-Mob: DnD-(IT-PS primary target- Pest- tab over to another target and pest again) Keep DnD and all diseases up for full duration. BB if times on diseases are good enough (under 8 seconds is when i like to start pest'ing again) Keep UB up and DnD down whenever its off CD.

    This has been my spec for both AoE and single target mob bosses. I've tried using SS and Obby in my rotation but it doesn't really seem that it has a good tps value then i thought so I made my spec and rotation to this.

    Record for TPS: Gluth-- 11k (Constant 7k-8k single mob tanking, 3-5k AoE mob tanking)

    I have RS set into every offensive ability I have but i also have it hot keyed so I dont miss a chance to use it. I don't mash my keyboard like i did with my warrior XD

    Although i have to admit that Dk tps is spikey at times with this build/rotation ive been as low as 3k on single but i've spiked to over 11k on nice RNG numbers DnD is very important to keep down and diseases up always have runes ready when DnD is almost off CD.

  18. #418
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    With the recent changes to LichBorne I've considered dropping it from my spec as well as hungering cold as I never had it when it was the 51 point talent so will not miss it. I know charm / fear sleep immunity is nothing to scoff at but I'm no longer sure that it in and of itself is worth the talent point. Now saying that I have 2 points to spend and can't decide where to put them. I'm currently leaning towards icy talons but anyone else have any suggestions? Current planned 3.1 build.

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbyGale View Post
    Death Knight Tanking Spec.

    Some one please tell me what a good spec is this is what i am looking for
    1. Multi Mob Tanking spec easy to learn
    2. glyphs i should for that spec
    3. Spell Roation should i use for that spec
    Any Macros . and othere stuff would also be nice thank you
    You should probably read through this guide as well as the other Deathknight discussions here in order to best draw your own conclusions.

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
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  20. #420
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    If we pick your spec, tell you how to play, and tell you how to think, it is only to your own detriment, especially as a DK. Tanking as a DK takes work, adaptation, and the ability to think and respond appropriately to the needs of a situation. A playbook is no substitute for learning your class.

    If you need help understanding moves/talents or want some working knowledge of how things play out, we can help.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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