Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

[Edgewalker]

I prefer the former as well, and why would you possibly be frost for single target tanking anyways is the real question All about AOE with that spec.

[Rawhidesabo]

I am a main tank for any and every raid currently including 25 ulduar and have spent close to 6k on respecs. That's including pvp builds of course. My current spec is 12/52/7 and I barely use frost strike to release my RP, instead using my Rune Strike. So I guess my question is with this current Nerf dk's are recieving for 3.2 how will this affect me as a frost tank.

In this spec I hold aggro without a problem at all even over a rogue that pulls 12-16k dps on trash and anywhere from 6-9k on bosses. I am hit and expertise capped so was just wondering how is this patch going to affect us frost tanks and what can we do to adjust.

[Pnutbrain]

I am a main tank for any and every raid currently including 25 ulduar and have spent close to 6k on respecs. That's including pvp builds of course. My current spec is 12/52/7 and I barely use frost strike to release my RP, instead using my Rune Strike. So I guess my question is with this current Nerf dk's are recieving for 3.2 how will this affect me as a frost tank.

In this spec I hold aggro without a problem at all even over a rogue that pulls 12-16k dps on trash and anywhere from 6-9k on bosses. I am hit and expertise capped so was just wondering how is this patch going to affect us frost tanks and what can we do to adjust.

i would like to know that as well

[Ironmonger]

I am a main tank for any and every raid currently including 25 ulduar and have spent close to 6k on respecs. That's including pvp builds of course. My current spec is 12/52/7 and I barely use frost strike to release my RP, instead using my Rune Strike. So I guess my question is with this current Nerf dk's are recieving for 3.2 how will this affect me as a frost tank.

In this spec I hold aggro without a problem at all even over a rogue that pulls 12-16k dps on trash and anywhere from 6-9k on bosses. I am hit and expertise capped so was just wondering how is this patch going to affect us frost tanks and what can we do to adjust.

Have your rogue turn down his awesome dial.

[dhthomps]

i would like to know that as well

Switch to the two disease rotation instead of just applying frost fever and your TPS will change very little (200 lower at most). With 3.2 disease damage was increased a non-trivial amount.

[dhthomps]

^^

We're in no way currently, or in the upcoming patch, unable to tank. And Unholy is every bit as capable as Blood and Frost at tanking.

I never understand why people like to make sweeping(ly ignorant) opinions as if they are inalienable fact. Of course, I also don't understand why people feel the need to tag their opinions with "IMO/IMHO."

While I agree with much of this statement, Satorri does not mention that currently Unholy's single target threat is vastly lower than the other two (valid for 3.2) specs at higher gear levels. If your guild needs Ebon Plaguebringer you won't be GIMPING them 100% by being UH, but dps may need to hold back if you do not outgear them.

At BiS gear levels blood will outperform frost for ST threat, for most other gear levels they are negligibly different.

[Satorri]

Based on what dhthomps?

Why do you think Unholy's single target threat is somehow vastly lower? "Gimping by 100%" is horrible hyperbole. A smart Unholy tank can put out more than enough threat for any raid's requirement. Also, I do more threat as Frost than I do as Blood.

You seem to be following someone's simulation/model/opinions, whose is it, if I may ask?

[dhthomps]

Based on what dhthomps?

Why do you think Unholy's single target threat is somehow vastly lower? "Gimping by 100%" is horrible hyperbole. A smart Unholy tank can put out more than enough threat for any raid's requirement. Also, I do more threat as Frost than I do as Blood.

You seem to be following someone's simulation/model/opinions, whose is it, if I may ask?

The UH threat is based on personal experience, the WWS parses have expired. This is a cop-out and I'm not happy to post it. For wary readers: it is my opinion that UH single target threat and dps is lower than the other two trees. The 3.2 nerfs to SS make me feel better about this statement, though many UH tanks/dps are replacing SS with OB.

As for my background I peruse here and elitistjerks.

[Satorri]

That's all I wanted to be sure. Your experiences with Unholy vs Blood vs Frost are pertinent, to be sure.

But when they're offered as absolutes (i.e. Blood does more threat than Frost which does more threat than Unholy. Period.) it is misleading.

[Nez]

I only tanking 10 man Uldy ATM with a group working on hard modes and achievements. I have been using the "unholy survival" build listed in the build thread for use on Firefighter. ( works great btw ) But although I would agree that unholy's threat is lower than the others, but even with the threat gimped build I am using, it is enough to maintain control. Even on fights where that build is not needed, HM Thory and Hody for example.

DK threat is generally lower at the initial start of a fight over other tanks. My hunters MD and rogues ToT when they feel its necessary at the start, but other wise I do fine. I enjoy having them push me a bit, keeps me awake and reminds me of BC warrior tanking. lol

Our 10 man group includes Rogue, Hunter, Shadow Priest, Kitty Scratch Druid., Ele Shammy and 2 Ret Pallies. So the DPSers are no slouches. I do tab target and spread the hate around a little more than just using pestilence when tanking packs, but I am used to that from tanking on a warrior for so long. Not a big deal imo.

Yes, I could run another tank build for more threat when I do not need the survival build, but I run a dps offspec, so I just make do with the one I really need.


Before we started focusing on these specific hardmode fights, I was tanking 10 man using the standard Blood build for the most part. Frost and unholy at times as well. On 25 man I used mostly blood and frost.

Note these are my opinions only, and based solely on the corpses of bosses and looting epix.
=]

PS - props to the OPs for keeping up and maintaining these threads.

[enndgame]

I do very well with aoe and single target threat with my spec...I have very good mitigation as i stack dodge and parry and def more than stam..On my server i am a MT for my guild and am always lookin for ways to improve myself...so i would love opinions on my gear and spec from other servers...I dont currently have any dk tank competition on mine
The World of Warcraft Armory

[Pruke]

I do very well with aoe and single target threat with my spec...I have very good mitigation as i stack dodge and parry and def more than stam..On my server i am a MT for my guild and am always lookin for ways to improve myself...so i would love opinions on my gear and spec from other servers...I dont currently have any dk tank competition on mine
The World of Warcraft Armory

Personally I think you should stack a bit more stam and replace the parry/stam gems. Your hit/expertise is fine, just seem a bit low at 28k hps. Thats my opinion anyhow. If it's working for you and your healers arent complaining, threats strong enough for DPS to not have to hold back then by all means keep what you got.

[Doublewookie]

I really enjoyed the AoE Frost rotation, Thanks.

[dhthomps]

I've updated my blood ST MT spec:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

Dropped to 2/3 SoB, may go to 1/3 if I'm still getting RP capped. Got rid of spell deflection.

I am going to try rune tap, maybe with DRM and some practice it'll make healers jobs easier (Plasma Blast I'm talking to you). Does anyone have experience with the rune tap glyph?

I stubbornly refuse to be talking out of WotN, it's not A LOT of damage reduction, but damage reduction nonetheless.

I'm not worried about my threat, but for things like XT hardmode I am worried about my dps - no sudden doom, no necrosis, no morbidity.

(As a tank I consider survival > TPS > DPS, but I do take dps into account as much as possible)

[Celchu]

I would agree that you can make unholy work threat wise, but when you get some trigger happy locks or hunters in the raid, and they have no clue what Omen is, it can make for some interesting times. I have run unholy for the better part of my tanking career and of all the patched since I hit 80, this one to me at least, has had the biggest impact on ST threat. I miss the old UB, I am not sure were I stand on the new version. I didn't see much from it from a threat stand point, and haven't used it from a DPS stand point, I know it had to be nerfed, but I think they went a bit to far.

[Bloodcrazed]

I do very well with aoe and single target threat with my spec...I have very good mitigation as i stack dodge and parry and def more than stam..On my server i am a MT for my guild and am always lookin for ways to improve myself...so i would love opinions on my gear and spec from other servers...I dont currently have any dk tank competition on mine
The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm a little confused as to what you are trying to achieve here.

So many mistakes to go into, so i'll just link you this build to try. Remember, you go to a raid/group to tank not buff.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

The above build will allow you to tank enything currently in game and is just as good aoe wise as a full uh build. Get hit capped (ideally with food) and go out tps frost and blood combined

[Emi]

I'm a little confused as to what you are trying to achieve here.

So many mistakes to go into, so i'll just link you this build to try. Remember, you go to a raid/group to tank not buff.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

The above build will allow you to tank enything currently in game and is just as good aoe wise as a full uh build. Get hit capped (ideally with food) and go out tps frost and blood combined

An interesting build but leaving IIT(namely the speed debuff) out is something that i cant see myself relying on others to do and as such i view it as fundamental in any tank build.

[Fand]

HI all,

I'm new to tanking and was looking to get your opinion on two builds. My aim is for a hybrid build focusing on avoidance and survivability. However, I'm not good with the number crunching using the abilities and calculating the threat output.

My rotations would be similiar to those given in the guide/post on page 1.

Hybrid spec 1 (use Blood-ish rotation):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Hybrid spec 2 (use Frost-ish rotation):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

If both specs suck .. feel free to tell me .. I got thick skin :-)

Thanks in advance,
Fand

[Goros]

I hate to say both specs suck, but they aren't really showing any signs of being tank specs.

The last hybrid spec I saw that worked for tanking was 32/36/5 and was popular pre-3.1. They nerfed most of the effectiveness of that build and the threat was a joke. (they moved HB to the bottom of the tree).

You just don't go far enough down any tree to get to really good damaging abilities. You aren't specced for AOE, you aren't specced for bosses, and just in general you have passed up some survivability talents that are key to tanking.

Rule #1 of tanking is DONT SPEC FOR TRASH. You have corpse explosion in your builds, which is basically blowing up trash that won't be there in a boss fight 90% of the time.

DK tanks are built to use DPS to generate threat. Without your 51 point talents in any spec, you are passing up on your primary means of holding aggro...in addition to taking abilities with limited use (unholy command) that is really only good for trash crowd control.

You shouldn't spec for trash because you should have your spec to a point where you never lose control of it (unless someone else screws up by taunting accidentally, using growl or hitting their aoe taunt etc by accident).

Also, by taking the blood self-healing but passing up on going farther down the tree, you are missing the power you need to really self heal, and since as a tank you will be the primary focus of the healer in the group (whatever group) you might be better off taking a mitigation tank build and letting the healer worry about keeping you alive. I find blood tanking to be fun and challenging, but it's not my best build because there is so much extra to watch and keep track of, and if you slip you take so much more damage than a frost tank that the healer might not be able to keep you up.

I'm not exactly the most qualified here to answer, but I can tell you that I played with hybrids for quite a while and the threat gen just wasn't there compared to other specs.

I'd advise starting with a cookie-cutter tanking build (or several), try to learn the basics of tanking (how to pull, how to control and move mobs, how to deal with stupid fail pugs as well as learning the fights) and play with those different builds until you find one that fits your play style. THEN try building your own tank spec once you understand the ins and outs of tanking with your class and where the synergy lies with each talent and talent tree.

Also, if you look on the first page, these tank builds at the beginning of this post have not been updated for 3.2 (or maybe I'm wrong) and I don't think the frost tank build in this post is any good at all (but I discovered what works best for me and I use it). I'd advise going to the 3.2 DK builds post and doing some testing with current builds.

[Satorri]

Not to discourage you Goros, but you misstep on a couple points:
1.) "Don't spec for trash" While this is semi-sound wisdom, it is equally flawed as saying "don't spec for bosses." AoE groups are an important part of our duty as tanks, it is not foolish to spec for that if you're using a single spec to handle all your tanking. CE is fantastic in Naxx, though (to my dismay) it starts falling out of ease-of-use in Ulduar. The boss fights will become the harshest test of your survival, but trash is the harshest test of your threat, particularly large groups of trash.

2.) The only 51 pt talent that will help a tank, is HB in Frost. Blood and Unholy's 51 pt talent gives you a pet for a short period. While the pet is fine for boosting your dps, it does nothing whatsoever for your threat.

Fand, what Goros says is very right on one important part: find your way. Figure out what feels best for you, and evolve your spec and your playstyle as you see what works for you and what doesn't. Creating a spec of your own is a valuable process to that, so let me see what I can offer about your first specs!

For your first spec, you have a nice semi-deep Blood spec. There are some points that you can discover on your own, but I can tell you as well:
1.) Lichborne has nearly zero pve value. The situations where you will be feared or slept are very far between. The CD/Duration are not favorable to using for Death Coil self-healing either.
2.) Icy talons may be a nice buff to your dps/threat, but it will be completely wasted in any situation where you have a Frost dps DK or a Shaman dropping Windfury totem. The buffs don't stack. This is also expensive to reach.
3.) RPM, Scent of Blood, and Butchery will see to it that you have loads of RP, but as a primarily blood spec, you won't have a whole lot to do with it all. You will have way more than you need to use CE on cooldown (and you won't use it as much as you think for total casts thanks to the CD), and you may very well end up with more than you can spend on DCs. Of the 3, RPM will be least helpful provided you dump well in rune blackouts, and Butchery will be half wasted since you will rarely get killing blows (maybe more often in heroics than raids, but still not often as a tank). Scent of Blood is easily the biggest RP value of the 3, but it won't require RPM for effective use and you still may find it's more RP than you actually need. That'd be the last of the 3 to drop.
4.) You love Death Grip. I can't blame you, it's terribly fun. Still, I think Unholy Command and the glyph are total overkill. Remember, the glyph, like Butchery, procs on killing blows, of which you will get few. It's nice in pvp to chain through a pack, but in pve it comes up a little lacking. Unholy Command and Glyph of Dark Command go in the same category for me: focusing on losing threat. Both are only valuable if you are planning to lose threat often, in which case you want to be improving your threat talents, not making it so you can taunt things back more often.
5.) Bladed Armor. You will not get more passive threat improvement from a single talent. Fill it out, with preference, you won't be disappointed as a tank.
6.) Heart Strike without Bloody Strikes, Dark Conviction, Bloody Vengeance, Abom's Might, or Subversion is going to be severely limited in value. If you can get MoM and Blood-gorged all the better, both of those play with the other talents I listed above to make a threat powerhouse.
7.) Vendetta you will find terribly lacking as a tank in instances for the same reason as glyph of Death Grip and Butchery. It procs off of your killing blows and as such will rarely proc. Vendetta is also further weak because it will proc when you are no longer in need of healing at least some of the time (i.e. after the fight is over).
8.) Bloodworms is a little disappointing. I'm assuming this spec is aimed more at heroics in which case you will find them more helpful. But in raids they come out very disappointing. In addition to dying when the smallest breeze comes up, they also have no attention for positioning and as such will stand in front of the boss to be parried (this means you'll take more hits and as such more damage probably than they heal you for in return).
9.) The last thing to consider is glyph of Dark Command. Some tanks swear by this because they feel like it is not worth the risk of missing a taunt. That said, if you are hit soft-capped (8% reduced chance to miss in melee), you will be completely hit capped against anything less than a raid boss (level 82 and under). Against a raid boss you will have about a 7% miss chance. If you have a spriest or boomkin in the raid, that will be snipped by 3% more. So, against a raid boss only, this glyph will remove your 4% chance to be missed when you taunt. Against anything in heroics, or raid trash, you're already over cap and this glyph does nothing at all. It is a viable choice, if you want it, but you should know how it works.

If you want to learn more about Blood tanking in general, I have an epic work of literature I posted in this forum.

For spec #2:
We see common trends here. The build goes for very attractive talents (to you) in the three trees, but what you will discover when you play this is that it completely lacks coherence for play. Unbreakable Armor is kind of nice against trash, but weaker against big-hitting baddies. Corpse Explosion is strongest when you're facing very high numbers, but it is virtually unusable against most 'single' target fights. Mark of Blood is fun, but it's value scales with your total health and is more of a supplemental tool than a primary device to rely on. We discussed Vendetta, Death Grip, and Dark Command, as well as the value of Bladed Armor.

The playstyle will be awkward and you'll find you don't have particularly strong survival or threat. Strong enough? Maybe in heroics against similarly geared dps, with decent gear of your own. Once you hit raids, you'll find you struggle a lot.

Hopefully some of this helps in figuring out a new format, but two pieces of advice:
1.) Find a play style. the trees have been designed to have central themes in both their survival tools and their threat tools. Learn how they play together well, and play to a theme yourself. You will be stronger the more you focus on a central tree theme.

2.) Play with it! Take your spec into heroics with friends (not pugs who'll be difficult if you can help it) to test out your changes. Ask for feedback on threat and heal-ability from the healer.