Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

[Krultek]

ok i gathered all info and i think i found a well good spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

i just would like the blood tank rotation for single and aoe mobs please.Feedback !

\also i was thinking of taking point out of mark of blood to corpse explosion for some more aoe? good idea?

[Satorri]

Mark of Blood I vastly prefer to CE, though that is a matter of threat vs survival.

Mark of Blood is only as good as your application of it, while CE is only good for trash with corpse volume. There's not a LOT of bulk trash in Ulduar like there is in Naxx, but I've made good use of both abilities.

Your spec looks sharp, the only thing I'd question is Scent of Blood. Personally, spamming single rune moves has plenty of RP stocking up so I am never unable to pop Mind Freeze, IBF, or RS whenever needed. Beyond that the only dump Blood tanks have is DC, and that's a fairly lackluster thing to spend on. Also with the single rune spending there are very few rune blackouts, and that is the only time I find it worth it to actually use DC. If you have a rune available you can always do better.

[Regurgitate]

3.1 MUST HAVE GLYPHS:
Unbreakable Armor
Obliterate

This leaves us with a decision for our last glyph

assuming 25 man raid situation

using Stormbreaker 10 million HP 2.5 minutes alive as judge

IT avg hit = 1,100
PS avg hit = 800
BS avg hit = 1050
Rune Strikes = 18
Rime Proc'd HB = 6

Glyph of IT = 3xIT per minute = 30 RP = ~3k damage increase

Glyph of FS = 8 RP saved per strike @ 3.5 per minute = 28 RP = ~2.8k damage increase

Glyph of RS = 10% Chance to crit increase (7.5 RS per min) = ~2.25k damage increase

this leaves us with our 2 new glyphs...

Glyph of HB = 2.33 Rime proc per minute + loss in damage from using HB instead of Obliterate to fill in gaps and throwing off the rotation from the extra rune and gives this glyph an awkward feeling and tough to max/min a rotation.

Glyph of Disease = Per minute Gains: 3 unholy runes, 3 frost runes "10-11k damage" Per minute Losses: 3 IT, 3 PS, 3 BS "9k damage" = 1k-2k gains



This is rough math "stuck at work atm" but take it for what you will

Also now that Plague strike hits for more than the 200-300 it used too and the increased length of diseases with Epidemic it is definately worth keeping Plague strike up.

Hmm, I have more questions than disagreements about what your analysis here. I'm still a little indecisive on glyphs for Frost tanking. For my MT spec, I take Oblit, HB, and IBF glyphs.

Is the UA glyph really worth it over the IBF glyph? If you don't already know, as confusing as the IBF glyph tooltip is, it ends up giving you 45-50% dmg reduction with defense scaling. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems like a glyphed IBF is more helpful than a glyphed UA... and easier to access (1 Frost rune may be difficult to come by vs 20 RP in an OMG situation)

With Chill of the Grave, Scent of Blood, and BoSanc.. I just don't know if I'm RP starved to need glyph of IT or FS. Could do more damage/threat with them though?

Glyph of HB is nice, but I find that when I really need to AoE tank, I just switch to Unholy. Later in Ulduar, I like it so much better (Freya trash, in the coliseum @ Thorim). So far I've loved the glyph for fights like Razorscale or Deconstructor trash... just HB, BB, DnD.

[Merko]

Regurg... as far as HB... I do same thing as you, when I really need to AOE tank *thorim* i pop into Unholy and go to town.

I am hearing the same reports of IBF glyph actually giving a large damage reduction to include existing defense bonus instead of the originally thought. If this is true then the bonus from IBF glyph DEFINATELY outperforms the UA glyph.

However I will be replacing my IT glyph with the IBF glyph this week for some more testing.

[Krultek]

Ok, so just like heart strike blood strike and death strike is what ill be spamming and death coil RP dump?sounds easy enough. blood is so complecated for getting the right spec,well it is after the patch :P

and for scent of blood should i just put those points in sudden doom or spell deflection?

[Satorri]

What are you using BS for?

And, as Blood, I think you'll get more mileage out of Sudden Doom or Spell Deflection for threat or survival respectively.

[Krultek]

alright, so DS HS and to end it Oblit and i guess ill put thoose points in sudden doom, ty

[Inspiri]

So, after reading up on past blue posts and looking at my new spec for tanking i come to the question, what am i doing wrong!?

Here is the case. I am currently tanking uldar 25 with little to no issues, pushing about 6-8k tps and spiking up to 10k; and doing about 2100+ dps. My spec is an odd one as you can see from my armory. I have about 31k hp unbuffed and both aoe and singal target threat is just fine for me. Here lies the issue, GC claims that dk tanks should rely on our cds and yet i find myself using anything but what we trained with through our dk trainers, nothing more and sometimes I dont even need to use those. This patch has made tanking easy mode for me and I am looking to spice up the class once again, I love dw and will not give that up unless i get some killer 2h over a dps in our raids, so please help!

The World of Warcraft Armory

Also yes I know I gemmed for Str, its for threat gen and the extra parry we get from it.


My rotation for singal target is more of a priorty list over a rotation and it is something like this.

AoE
DnD > BB > Unholy Blight > IT > PS > RS

Single
DnD > RS > DC > BB > PS > IT > Unholy Blight
(unless my grim procs then RS and BS move to the top of the list)

DnD is almost always on cd unless I get a grim proc. I have very little down time where im not doing anything. Also when I do DS if a healer goes down, i am getting all 6 runes to become death runes as well.

I am at my wits end because I have no extra cds and would love to make things a bit harder so I am no longer bored smashing buttons while tanking!!

If there are any other ideas please let me know, otherwise I hope some other dks out there can play with this off the wall spec and let me know what you think as well!!

Thanks,
Inspiri

PS: I will be in tank gear after tonight, but I run full 7.5 except for my pants which are the ones off 25 maly. I use grim and jc dodge trinket and my weps are broken promise and last laugh.

[Merko]

...because you can doesn't mean you should...

As a warrior you can take the first hit from a boss sitting down to "get more rage" but
...because you can doesn't mean you should...

As a tank you can have below 540 defense and successfully tank Ulduar but
...because you can doesn't mean you should...

You can wear pvp gear to become uncrittable
...because you can doesn't mean you should...

I think you get the idea here


*EDIT*

You said -

I am currently tanking uldar 25 with little to no issues

Having downed Flame Leviathan and Razorscale does not count as "tanking Ulduar with no issues"

[Inspiri]

I am currently tanking uldar 25 with little to no issues[/B]

Having downed Flame Leviathan and Razorscale does not count as "tanking Ulduar with no issues"

If we hit enrage timers that is NOT the tanks fault, its the DPS...I dont die until I get hit for 90k

[Merko]

...and this is why the beginnning of Ulduar got nerfed. This "I'm doing it right so something or someone else must be doing wrong mentality". Have you thought that if you stepped up your game, fine tuned your build and used cooldowns properly it may take one less healer on you. That it would free up your raid to bring another dps?

I mean my guild is stuck on P.4 Mimi at the moment and I still wouldn't say I can tank Ulduar "with little to no issues". If its little to no issues on you, then your passing the buck to your healers. Its a team effort

[Satorri]

Maybe so. Merko's point is simply that you haven't scratched the surface so it's a bit premature to generalize about tanking Ulduar. When you've cleared past half way, if you're still feeling bored, that's wonderful, albeit unconstructive info to share with us.

Razorscale is not on the tanks until phase 2 and that is not much of a test and usually not a test. Tanks will die almost always to a one-shot and little else, unless you've burned healers in Devouring Flames.

Honestly, if that tank spec works well for you, I'm impressed, it strikes me as a little weak on thematic synergy. It doesn't play to a consistant theme. Is there a particular method you play up as far as threat or survival go? Is your tanking gear balanced for stats or do you buff one element particularly?

[Satorri]

<3 Merko

Team effort is so very easily missed. No one person can clear Ulduar for you, it takes a team of skilled players playing well together. 25 allstars may be able to bluff their way through on individual performance, and 18 all-stars in key positions could probably even carry 7 moderate players, but 1 'all-star' and his supporting cast aren't clearing a damn thing.

[Inspiri]

Yes I understand it is a team effort and I only ever have two healers on me in 25mans. The issue is our dps is dying to stupid stuff, not running away from bombs and so forth. Through xt's tantrum I told all healing to goto raid because I have enough stuff to keep me up through that part of it to make sure dps does not die. there is not much left for me to do. I use my IBF when i know major things are happing and my trinkets if i see raid low on hp I do not see what else I can personally do to help my raid progress further it is up to my healers and dps not to die at this point. I will get a wws parse for you all to look at too, but the question is what other ideas are there to tank dw that gets more fun buttons to click and add things into a rotation.

Also for the healers we bring, its a pally healer, resto shammy, resto druid, holy priest, disc priest. The disc and pally are typiclly healing me. And if you have any questions about why i took the points i did in my spec I will explane in needed...

EDIT:
I forgot to answer the last part of your question, its a ballance of all stats, when upgrading I go for more dodge if possible, I gemed for str however for the parry and threat generation. Same reason why i use dps runes on my weapons

[hiatus]

wher is a link for unholy tank?

[Merko]

Right now the numbers are being worked on for an unholy tank as far as a couple of talent points but 10/10/51 looks like what will be the standard build for unholy. Unfortunately the obvious problem with this build is no improved icy touch for the extra reduction in boss attack speed. So unless you run with a prot warrior and/or a frost DK i would be tempted to adjust the build to a 13/8/50

[macron]

Looking for some opinions on my spec/rotation. Any advice or criticism is appreciated. I'm trying to be the best tank I can be, hands down. I'm leveling my DK to MT for my guild, and I could care less about my personal preferences, if I can do something to be a better tank, please let me know.

12/51/8

I'm thinking of dropping Death Chill, as it feels like a waste of points. Not sure what to move that 1 point into though. Considering Endless Winter to drop the cost of my Mind Freeze, but I'm open to suggestions. For this build (when I'm done with it...only 75 right now), I plan on using the following rotation for AoE tanking:

Open: DnD > (DC) HB > BS > RPdump
Rotation: OB > OB > BS > HB > RPdump > DnD > OB > HB > RPdump > BS > OB > OB > HB > RPdump > Repeat

I use BS to convert all my Blood runes to Death runes (use one in my opener, and one in my first set of the rotation) and I use HB to keep FF up on all of the mobs around me. When Rime procs and I hit with a free HB, I drop a BB before my RP dump (HB should always be on a Death Rune in this rotation). I'm still working on a single target rotation.

Given the post by Regurgitate, I'm also going to drop the UA glyph in favor of the IBF glyph.

Let me know what you think.

[Merko]

Macron, you seem to have a good idea of what does what, how each ability affects another.

For 5 mans putting the 3 points in Morbidity will definately be key for chain pulling however once you get into a raid environment and boss fights increase in length and you have more help on trash pulls you will see better gains by taking the 3 points out of morbidity and putting 2/2 in epidemic then using the last point in either acclimation or hungering cold *situation depending*

you seem to be on the right track...

[macron]

Merko, thanks for the advice. I worked really hard on my rotation, and while trying to come up with a "single target" rotation, I don't think I can match the threat I can put out with the AOE rotation in this spec, even with just a single target. So how about for single target, I keep the same rotation, just replace BB with PS for when Rime procs?

Stacking a second disease will help with the oblit damage and threat generation over time, and it doesn't change anything about my rotation as it stands. It would still use a Death Rune in place of the HB when Rime procs.

As for the morbidity, I built my AOE rotation around a 15sec CD on DnD. Is there anything you'd recommend for my second set of my rotation to replace DnD, or should I just swap my second and third sets to give me that 30 seconds from the initial DnD cast? i.e. my rotation would change to:

OB > OB > BS > HB > RPdump > OB > OB > HB > BS > RPdump > DnD > OB > HB > RPdump > Repeat

[coe]

@macron, you seem to have everything well thought, but tbh practice shows, that you can't tank successfully using predefined rotation (at least in my case). If anything goes wrong during your rotation, it falls apart and you have to fall back to priority system (use abilities you think / feel will be most useful in next few GCDs). Sure, there is something like opening rotation, to make best use of all resources at the beginning and build safe threat.

edit: There are places that your rotations won't work. Eg. I use different opening rotation for portal guardians in VH (they spawn adds after about 10secs, so if you start with DnD, it will expire just before adds spawn). I just want to show you, that you can't stick to rotations and tank everything the same way

OK, but to help you a bit:

- I would drop DnD from your rotations. After opening rotation you should have enough threat over DPSers. DnD is good for opening, but after that it is too expensive to use (3 runes, long CD). It is better to keep it in case (you're fighting one group and someone accidentally pulls another group. You can do Empower Rune Weapon and lay DnD to catch new mobs / patrol, etc. With glyph of HB I even open bigger pulls with: HB (BBFU), PS (BBF), Pest (BF), BB (F), and after some RPdump I have another HB available.

- Deathchill, I'm not sure if one crit every 2 mins is worth 1 talent point, I dropped it after few weeks of using

- Morbidity, I agree with Merko, it is nice for 5-mans, when mobs die before your diseases expire and you need DnD for another pull (best example is timed CoS).

- 2H weapon specialization, only if you have threat issues, but you shouldn't have. I would put one talent point into Rune Tap. It is great o-shit-cooldown available every minute. It saved me quite a lot of times. Additionally, with glyph it heals whole party (but it is major glyph, so I don't use it now).

- And last but not least, Killing Machine It is really great for 5-mans, but for raids and bosses Icy Talons and Imp. Icy Talons are far more important.