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Thread: Death Knight AOE Spec, MT Spec and Rotations

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by durgoe View Post
    Hi All

    Great stuff in here, question with the new patch and the fact that i am new to the DK what is a good spec to use for leveling purposes and 5 mans for the time being untill i get back to the raids... i am running around in the blood tree right now but i dont think it is going to help with the 5mans i could be wrong.....

    thoughts?


    For 5 mans (heroic and non-heroic) and offtank in Naxx 10 man you can tank with a dps spec.

    I use Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    Just make sure you are in Frost Presence with your tank gear on. You may have to be mindful of Deathstrikes, Rune Taps, MoB etc to assist your healer on some bosses but it works fine.

    I also want to point out I had little success with this concept in 10 man Naxx until I was 540 def 20k health and 20k armor with 30% avoidance. Once I hit my stats....switched to dps spec and off to the races.


    I am at that point where I am being looked at as a potential MT for our 2nd Naxx group. Although some might say "yay!" I rather enjoy OT duties.
    1. I can spec dps.
    2. I can change presence and either burn the meters(I love pissing off mages! It is my new goal in life) or pick up adds.
    3. I can drop AMZ(If unholy) on my healers during big arse nuke bombs.
    4. I get to be more hands on.

    I am not really looking forward to the linear tanking life again. I am having too much fun being versatile.

    At any rate. For OT in 5 man heroics and 10man Naxx....dps spec in Frost Presence and Tank gear. You really only lose some armor, parry when your runes are on CD and Dodge. The loses there wont hurt too much on trash and the adds we encounter during a Boss fight.

  2. #202
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    Expanding on my reply above....


    I am being evaluated as a MT (hate that term) for our 2nd Naxx group. I don't know what that means, "evaluated", but I hope it does not involve a prostate exam.

    If they ask me to do it, I will for the good of the guild and progression reasons. The sooner we get two groups farming 10 man Naxx the sooner we can progress to 25 mans.

    So with all that hot air out of the way, I am convinced Unholy and Frost are playing ball in the same league. Blood is a bit behind and hopefully the patch will remedy things there. For the sake of conversation, between Frost and Unholy which will allow me to be a better MT? I am looking at TPS, DPS avoidance Mit etc. There are soooo many arguments for and against each that it is a bit daunting to find solid info anymore.

    I am leaning towards Frost as AMZ, squishy pets and AOE dmg boost talents will do me little good while eating Hateful Strikes or inspecting Sapphiron's molars for cavities. I am just not sure how well Frost fairs in the TPS department. Anyone else pulling the primary tanking duties who can shell out some advice?

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperios View Post
    my reasoning for not getting guile of gorefiend is because of the icebound fortitude nerf coming in 3.0.8 but is something i would reconsider. Also, i dont have enough points after going down that far in blood to get a full 3/3 guile of gorefiend or frost strike so would you suggest i dump the hp/str bonus of blood just to get frost strike for additional threat?
    Its all about balance

    you have (14 talent points)

    5% crit
    6% stam
    6% str
    6 expertise
    buffed BS
    ~28% to negate 30% direct spell damage

    what changes give you (9 talent points)

    6 seconds of icebound fort
    45% crit damage increase to BS/FS/HB/OBL
    Stronger RP dump
    10% more damage done
    5 Expertise

    DK tanking is nice because the specs are so versatile, but the key to figure out your best spec is to break it down piece by piece and find out what benefits your situation the best.

  4. #204
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    What exactly should I do when I am tanking only two mobs. (Unholy.) It seems to be a waste going through the AoE rotation, but single target rotation gets me no threat on the other mob.

  5. #205
    Still tanking as Blood but so far, only for heroics. Build I use is below

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    Note that the build has the 5 tanking talent points from each of the tree. Important I think.

    For pulls, I always start by dropping D&D before using DG on one of the mobs. Rotation goes as:

    Pull: D&D, DG

    When pulling a trash group with 2 casters in it, I start by using Strangulate on one and DG on the other. That way, both casters are guaranteed to be hit by the D&D i just put down. Rotation is as follows:

    IT, PS, Pest, [DC], BB
    IT, PS, Pest, [DC], D&D

    So far, this has worked for me. Will be improving this once the CD for Pest has been removed, and the cleave effect for HS has been added. Good things coming for blood I hope.

  6. #206
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    So I have been tanking as unholy with my DK, and I have been tracking using both recount and WWS. One thing that I have noticed is that my attacks are not being parried that often in heroics. I currently have 20 expertise and about 250 hit with 540 def. I can maintain about 66% avoidance with self buffs. Now I'm not sure if this reason is because Heroic bosses don't have very much parry, but I am getting dodged more than parried. Any thoughts on what is going on? Could this be because I am using a 2hander?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerlth View Post
    What exactly should I do when I am tanking only two mobs. (Unholy.) It seems to be a waste going through the AoE rotation, but single target rotation gets me no threat on the other mob.
    What I do is DG a ranged guy to me, PS-IT-Pest-BB. this is usually sufficient enough to get enough aggro on the second mob without having to burn your runes with DnD. This takes some practice getting down and you have to be really quick. Also make sure you are at your max range for DG as this will give you more time to apply your diseases.

  8. #208
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    You're better off using a 2h weapon. More damage, more threat. in any situation.

    2 1h weapons will probably give you more stats for def/parry. ( post patch over def will certainly not hurt a dk, considering the icy fort changes.

    The one thing you need to focus on is the runicstrike for your single target pulls. Don't mind the dodges, accept them and use them to your benefit. fyi your about 45 hit under cap, and about 8 exp over cap, you have wasted points/gems that could be used to balance your build out.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lich View Post
    So I have been tanking as unholy with my DK, and I have been tracking using both recount and WWS. One thing that I have noticed is that my attacks are not being parried that often in heroics. I currently have 20 expertise and about 250 hit with 540 def. I can maintain about 66% avoidance with self buffs. Now I'm not sure if this reason is because Heroic bosses don't have very much parry, but I am getting dodged more than parried. Any thoughts on what is going on? Could this be because I am using a 2hander?
    20 expertise should be almost enough to never be parried in heroics, I've gone as low as 18 and seen maybe 1 or 2 parries for an afternoon of heroics.

    Raid bosses are where the parry chance jumps up to 10-14%.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #210
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    Thanks Satorri! That's what I had thought, just wasn't 100% sure.

  11. #211
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    Hi all, first off id like to thank you all for the information gathered, its helped me a great deal.. ive been playing with a few diff specs for tanking and ot.. the problem i face is im now specd for mt frost, and love it.. the healer in our guild has noticed a huge diff in keeping me alive and the TPS is top of the charts.. this works great for heroics and raids.. problem i face now is sometimes i run as ot also.. my aoe threat is lacking and im loosing agro to other aoe classes.. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is my current build , when i was unholy, i had no problem maintaining threat while aoe ot.. id like to get the best of both worlds without sacrificing too much. any idea;s are appriciated.
    ty

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonypablos View Post
    Looking at the rotation you have for a single target, I've tested it out and so far, I really dislike it. I just don't feel you're taking advantage of your IT and PS ticks nor are you using the most out of your skills.

    Now, granted, I'm one of the kings of unconventional, but I'm testing out some rotations with a frost tanking build right now. This is more for a single target threat situation that could work for psudo AoE tanking, replacing a couple of things differently.

    This is what I've been practicing.

    IT > PS > HB > BS > BS > dump = phase 1

    Then, my rotation changed to the end of my full second rotation which is this.

    HB > OB > BS > BS (dump)

    Now, this is the third rotation and the one that you used the first two to set up for good:

    IT > PS > HB > OB > Dump > HB > OB > BS > BS > dump.
    Merko, looking at your OP frost build, and comparing with Tony's comment quoted here, I think we might put some discussion into your OP rotation.

    I can't quite work out whether the current rotation on the OP ("DnD,IT,PS,PEST,HB,BB,FS,OB,HB,PEST" actually works or not, given the build does not have death runes. I think it'd leave a fair few gaps to wait for runes to recharge.

    In contrast, Tony's rotation above makes sense but requires death runes. It's not a classic rotation I'd promote though, it's unconventional as he said, but is a good talking point.

    Lastly, the frost linked spec on OP at the moment includes Merciless Combat which I think is fairly weak for a tank. You shouldn't need a TPS burst @ <35% mob health.

    Therefore, I think the build could be changed too.

    I'd suggest a very slightly changed spec like this may be better. It loses Frost Aura and 1 pt from 2H spec, also abandons Merciless Combat, but gains 5/5 BotN for Death Runes.

    Frost Aura is nice, no doubt, but it does not stack with Imp GOTW and often raids will have one druid providing that, making the aura redundant. It doesn't stack with pally aura or totems either, but on the other hand: if you're providing Frost Aura then they can do something else with their aura and totem. So, if you want every bit of spell mitigation possible, you need Frost Aura and that'd mean you probably can't get BotN. The only build that has all of Frost Aura & Acclimation & BotN requires losing 2 in Rime, which is an interesting compromise, looks like this.

    Death runes are nice: they mean you can Howling Blast or Obliterate three times in your second rotation. Easy to remember, and great TPS. This is predicated on a 3.08 build where you can HB all the time.

    Rotation would be something like... need help here can't remember/find the rotation that I had in mind:
    IT > PS > BS > BS > Oblit or HB > FS
    Oblit or HB > FS > Oblit or HB > ..?
    Last edited by GravityDK; 12-25-2008 at 04:28 PM.

  13. #213
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    Spec

    The only thing I have done is get Outbreak. Against one of our mages in AoE combat I have noticed a tremendous difference having it. Another question are you sure that Icy Talons works on every boss mob?

  14. #214
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    Concerning the Unholy AoE rotation:

    I experience about 3 seconds of down time after the Pestilence before the Blood Boil.

    What am I doing wrong. I follow what you have to the letter.

  15. #215
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    Frost/Unholy

    Been reading through the posts here and really enjoy the thoughts on the speccs. I have been trying DW and 2H, and also both Frost and Unholy for a period of time now (aint to interested in blood, dont ask me why). Imo when i have been tanking i reccon the Unholy with its Bone Shield is stronger vs single targets and Frost stronger vs groups when it comes to taking damage (dont know if this has anything to do with me DW'ing when tanking as Frost) even if the Unholy is really good keeping aoe threat. I have to say i enjoy the Unholy tree more then the Frost but as many here have said before me, as a tank you have to do whats best for the group.

    Im probably gonna be OT for naxx now and i think im gonna try the Unholy tree for now with a 2H. I have skipped Lichborn cos dont reccon it gives that much tbh. Instead i put 3 points in Wandering Plague (not sure how large the effect is though).
    Any thoughts on this Unholy Spec

  16. #216
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    Hey Guys,

    This thread has been very helpful to me as a first time tanker in WoW. I've read most of the post on the thread and seems like the experts are favoring frost atm (probably just personal preference). but i find myself leaning toward the Unholy playstyle. After reading through the thread i have devised this unholy tanking build, but each time i look at it, it just seem very gimpy or wrong. Can someone help me critque my build?

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    probably one of the more noticeable difference between my build and some other is that i dropped blood-caked blow, and added pale horse. I am not sure how much BCB actually contributes, but i am liking Pale Horse's increase mount speed and stun/fear timer reduction. And i only have 5pts into Blood for Blade Barrier.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by sohcahtoa View Post
    Hey Guys,

    This thread has been very helpful to me as a first time tanker in WoW. I've read most of the post on the thread and seems like the experts are favoring frost atm (probably just personal preference). but i find myself leaning toward the Unholy playstyle. After reading through the thread i have devised this unholy tanking build, but each time i look at it, it just seem very gimpy or wrong. Can someone help me critque my build?

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    probably one of the more noticeable difference between my build and some other is that i dropped blood-caked blow, and added pale horse. I am not sure how much BCB actually contributes, but i am liking Pale Horse's increase mount speed and stun/fear timer reduction. And i only have 5pts into Blood for Blade Barrier.

    As far as i know Blood caked Blow can be parried and is only a 3ish % dmg increase, so imo its a bad talent for tanking.

    Here is my build atm:
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I used to skip unholy blight and get 5/5 of bladed armor, but UB is very nice for picking up adds so i have gone back to 4/5 Bladed Armor.

    I'm also curious on how much threat you guys are doing as unholy. With md's and raidbuffs i can just get past 4k sustained threat on a 10-man boss, but i usually hower around 3k sustained self buffed. I'm not holding back the dps atm, but they seem to scale alot better then i do and tbh i'm a little conserned on how my single target threat is going to be when they get geared up.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by nips View Post
    As far as i know Blood caked Blow can be parried and is only a 3ish % dmg increase, so imo its a bad talent for tanking.

    Here is my build atm:
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I used to skip unholy blight and get 5/5 of bladed armor, but UB is very nice for picking up adds so i have gone back to 4/5 Bladed Armor.

    I'm also curious on how much threat you guys are doing as unholy. With md's and raidbuffs i can just get past 4k sustained threat on a 10-man boss, but i usually hower around 3k sustained self buffed. I'm not holding back the dps atm, but they seem to scale alot better then i do and tbh i'm a little conserned on how my single target threat is going to be when they get geared up.
    You waste a point on your ghoul... Why?

    I'm thinking something more like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
    Last edited by Nerlth; 12-28-2008 at 01:56 PM.

  19. #219
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    first time poster here Hi! Anyhoot been tanking heroics with my DK hes Frost. My current spec looks like this. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft So been tryin to decide if i should respec and pick up frost aura and acclimation any taughts? Be nice to hear from fellow frost dk's. Im doing mainly heroics but wanna go into raiding soon, ill be switching points out of pest since the cd will be taken off from what i hear.
    Last edited by sayan187; 12-28-2008 at 02:24 PM. Reason: grammer

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayan187 View Post
    first time poster here Hi! Anyhoot been tanking heroics with my DK hes Frost. My current spec looks like this. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft So been tryin to decide if i should respec and pick up frost aura and acclimation any taughts? Be nice to hear from fellow frost dk's. Im doing mainly heroics but wanna go into raiding soon, ill be switching points out of pest since the cd will be taken off from what i hear.
    I really like Acclimation. It stacks up fast, and works on top of everything. Frost Aura on the other hand seems to me pretty pointless (imho our weakest aura) because it just doesn't stack with anything I'm often running with a druid, and so i get 75 Resists out of GotW .. investing two skillpoints just to get additional 5 resists is just not worth it.

    By itself 80 Resists for the 2 points are not bad at all, so if you know you don't run with druids it may be an option if you have spare points .. i just don't like it to see these points wasted in about 80% of all my group runs and 99% of all raids

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