Typo in frost spec rotation? "UB" = OB I assume?
Typo in frost spec rotation? "UB" = OB I assume?
What about Duel-Weild Tanking as a DK? It would allow for more defense and dodge and parry. I want to know the down sides?
I've been raid tanking in Naxx 10 as unholy with the following spec UNHOLY SPEC and from what i can tell it's going well.
Blood's giving me threat, increased parry chance and rune tap for a bit of "OH CRAP"-ing. Frost is giving me more mob slowing, more armor and Lichborne (+ selfdeathcoiling combo) for usage as an "OH CRAP" button as well, and unholy is giving the rest of what i need including the well scaling Bone shield, the useful Anti-magic zone, etc.
Yet i haven't seen this spec mentioned anywhere else (yet). Am i missing something that makes it less optimal than any other spec?
That Unholy AoE rotation made me giddy Thanks, I finally have a good idea what to do.
One question about the spec: Why no bladed armor? The AttThread currently at or around the top of the General List seems to give pretty solid support for taking it as both a Warrior and as a DK. This isnt an attack, its more a question.
Also: Dirge, is it a must?
Unholy Single target rotation:
After trying out the rotation on a training dummy I found a problem. It seems that before the last Scourge Strike there is a waiting period of about 2 seconds. When it is up I finish with about 85 runic power, dump it out on two death coils. It is pretty much a great threat holder, but that 2-3 second pause isn't good.
IT, PS, BS, BS, SS, Death coil, SS, IT, PS, BS, BS, SS, Runic Dump, Repeat
The runic dump (After testing three times I have 90 runic power at the end.) will just be two Death Coils.
The rotation keeps going. If you get in a rune snag, just cast a runic dump quick and move on.
IT, PS, BS, BS, SS, Death Coil, It, PS, BS, BS, SS, Runic Dump, Repeat
Also works. (I removed the SS after the Death Coil.)
Eventually, you can decide when to dump, and when to repeat, it all comes down to a feel, but those two rotations have VERY little down time. Next to nothing if done right.
I want to start off by saying that I originally posted this on Elitist Jerks but it seems like there is little to no moderation at that place anymore. Every thread is about "this is what I would do" or "Personally I don't like this for this reason" or "just spec what you feel is comfortable". If anyone is like me, we want answers on the best possible spec with the current data at hand (mitigation, content, gear available). With that said, I've been through a few pages of this thread (and will diligently read through the rest after I post) and I still haven't seen this spec posted.
This is the post I put on EJ. Hopefully someone can give me some reasonable input into this with math. I just can't be convinced by the statements "do what suites you!"
Through what I've been reading from various sources, some educated, some not, I've come to the ultimate conclusion that frost, in this point of the game is nowhere near as viable as unholy is for tanking. Let me explain! Comparatively, frost has the aforementioned "oh shit buttons". But how good are those 2 talent really? I don't have the math to back me up, I'm still new to the game design mathematics.
I am currently specced Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
With this build, I get all the must-have tanking talents as well as some utility talents. Let's talk a little bit about my current stats. I'm not poorly geared but I am nowhere near "well-geared" (Thanks itemization). I have a few tanking pieces from naxxramas (10 man) and from badges. I currently sit at 27194 Health unbuffed, 19% parry, 22% dodge, and 24k armor. This does not include horn of winter or Blade Barrier. I find with my unholy build that I can have bone shield up almost a full duration of icebound fortitude cooldown. For example, i use Icebound Fortitude. As soon as it comes down, I use Boneshield (let's assume this is in the middle of a fight). IBF is a 60 second cooldown. I can keep boneshield up, usually until around 10-20 seconds of IBF coming off cooldown. Now, let's say these are on cooldown on a difficult boss. I now have a 2 min trinket that I can use (I currently have the badge dodge trinket as my only "use" trinket). This, so far, has been up everytime I came into a situation where all my life saving buttons were on cooldown. Now, on top of the build we also get spell deflection. With blade barrier up, I have +30% chance to parry (depending on buffs). That's an innate +30% chance to take 30% less damage from a head on spell. Then icing on the cake is veteran of war which bumps my health so... healthfully :P and in my gear about 1% to parry.
If we compare this to a typical Frost build, we have to look at Lichborne, Unbreakable armor, and frigid dreadplate. I was using an unholy/frost build before this and I can honestly say that I believed Lichborne to be rather lackluster. The cooldown is just too long to be reliable. I can't say i've ever used it and noticed a significant difference when multiple tanking mobs. Maybe one mob but the only fight I do that on is Patchwerk. I also only use it in heroics when I pull a couple packs and just use all my CD's to aoe burn everything down (like the gauntlet in pinnacle). I just don't see it being as comparatively useful in raids (yet). So we move on to Unbreakable armor. This bumps me up to about 30k armor (about 9% total less damage?), and ~7% parry total (probably did the math wrong). This last for 20 seconds. When you reach a certain avoidance level, such as myself, doesn't it just makes sense that bone shield offers more mitigation for the point? (please, please, please correct me if I am wrong on any of this) I'll be honest and say that I can't accurate model the 3% chance to not be hit, but it seems to decrease in usefulness at a certain avoidance level as well. Point for point, it seems that boneshield in itself is more mitigation than all 3 of these combined for 3 points (again, at a certain level). For the sake of it, I wasn't going to throw acclimation against spell defelction simply because they are both RNG numbers and let's be honest... neither is incredibly useful to this point. I can see them being used for Sapphiron and Malygos but that's it. In this case, I would assume acclimation wins on Sapphiron and Spell deflection on maylos (assuming MT'ing).
If it's about AOE tanking, than that is just a player thing IMO. Tanking has become somewhat of a joke. DnD, put 2 diseases up, pestilence, bloodboil and I have aggro. Go from there. Unholy actually helps this as well with increased spell hit/damage.
Now, we get to MT'ing. I can honestly say that we have some VERY good players in our guild, and some not so good players. However, I have not found MT'ing anything to be an issue. The occasional Rogue (cough ereturns) will ride my tail for a bit, but he never seems to surpass me. Even on patchwerk I can stay within, literally, points of threat off our MT. (who I consider to be the worst player in the world, but others do not )
Moreover, we can talk about DPS while not tanking. As frost, I was lucky to be doing 1k dps on a single target boss in dps gear. My unholy/frost build was a bit better. I was holding around 1100-1200 dps consistently. As my new build, I do around 1400-1500 dps. Some people may consider this unimportant. But, for min/maxers such as myself, this is all but unnecessary.
As a final point we have to talk about auras. I read the "napkin math" of the unholy Aura for dps and survivability was not accounted for. If you haven't read it, I believe it came out to roughly 500 raid dps in a 10 man moving fight? Again, this doesn't model survivability (heigan, anub, and sapphiron to name a few). I beleive this to be far superior to the frost aura. This brings us back to the point about acclimation and spell deflection. It's useful in 2 fights (and maybe required for bugged malygos but we've gotten him to 55-60% without it so I wouldn't say necessary). At this point in time, the spell mob tanking DK is just simply not required.
Hopefully i didn't make any glaring mistakes but if I did please fel free to flame me! It will teach me a lesson! Please, help me if I am wrong to understand where and how. Like I said, I'm a noob still at the game mechanic mathematics! Also just delete this if it's an unnecessary post!
Hi Effekt, I don't go to EJ because I find their thread-format useless.
Tantling spreadsheet simulator latest version is downloadable here. I suspect you have looked at it already.
But if not, it will let you simulate the gear you have, the spec, and it tells you the mitigation you achieve.
At Naxx gearing levels with 65%+ avoidance, if I recall correctly, unholy has more time to live than frost.
Note the current version of the Frost calculator does not account for 5% glyph on UA, so you need to adjust for that yourself. It does let you specify 5 bones on your BS, though.
From memory, I think it shows the mitigation you get over a minute by applying the damage reduction for your spec, for the duration it lasts, to calculate an overall time to live. Therefore it accounts for improved duration on IBF.
Regarding Frost's +3% to miss, at increased avoidance levels it is actually more valuable if you look at it this way: you have 20% chance to be hit, if it goes to 17%, you have improved your avoidance by 15%. This is a nice constant improvement, no CD on it.
Sure that's good, but compare to bone shield which could be up for 30s or so if you are only being hit 20% of the time, when you are hit, you get 40% damage reduction.
Last edited by GravityDK; 11-29-2008 at 11:05 AM. Reason: to hit comment, toned down praise for unholy
Thanks for the input!
I actually have checked that out but since I reformatted to Vista it hasn't worked for some reason. I'll give it another go though.
actually I just did a fresh side-by-side for Unholy -vs- Frost with Tantling spreadsheet, being sure to adjust the Frost for +5% parry from UA Glyph, and putting a Frost talent build into one copy and an Unholy into the other.
It showed actually nearly the same time to live. Perhaps that extra parry is making a bigger difference than I'd thought when compared to the published version of spreadsheet which doesn't account for it.
Notably though, UA is armour so only helps with melee, whilst BS is 40% off all damage types including AOE, so that'd have to be an edge.
I'm pretty new to the whole tanking idea, been a warlock for god knows how long...I started my DK with the release of the expansion, and have been falling more in love with it more everyday...
Since we dont have many tanks in our guild, i thought i would take it upon myself to lvl one for us...the DK seemed like the perfect opportunity...
Now i have tried a few specs left and right, but fell in love with Frost...
UA-Lichborne-IBF seem like a superman collection when hit together, and provides long survivability when rotated after each other...
I have been reading up on the forum, and i might be wrong, but it seems like frost builds are not getting as much discussion as the other 2 trees...
My lvl is still low i know...but i was fidgeting around with the talent calculator and i have come to this build.
I like the fact that i can juggle rune based abilities, applying what ability when i want based on the situation...i feel i get more control...and not sticking with a rotation much...just opening with IT-PS-HB(-maybe DnD depending on how many mobs and accompanying CC'ers)-then play what i think best suits the situation as it comes...
I'm still unsure about how well HC will work in raids...and i have left out FA since i read somewhere it only decrease spell dmg by ~15%
I thought: "i have a great healer partner...why bother?"
I'll try digging up that piece of info for everyone...
Please do correct me if im wrong...
Your comments and remarks are highly appreciated.
Edit: how useful are "Runic Power Mastery" and "Killing Machine"?
Would they be good additions for tanking?
Last edited by Shazlonium; 11-30-2008 at 03:51 AM. Reason: extra thoughts
neither rpm nor killing machine are viable tanking talents since u dump ur rp before hitting 100 (100 or 130 doesn't matter)
i don't understand why u like to have 6 deathrunes.
for what? u say u r more flexible, yeah maybe but just a lil bit.
doesn't matter how manny deathrunes u have, with ur spec u have to trefresh ur diseases every 12 seconds: 4runes left, 2 of them r deathrunes by botn, 2 runes left, these u actually use for obliterate when fighting single targets or howling blast against multiple targets or u turn in an ua.
hungering cold isn't effective at all in most situations while raiding.
i would suggest this build, i use for tanking:
note that i don't put points into imp icy talons because we have an enhancement shaman dropping wf.
World of Warcraft Europe -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talents
i'm confused...oh wait...maybe i'm not...
Hmmm, i like your points...i'm not disagreeing with you at all, but from the few dungeons i've been in so far, having 6 deathrunes, personally, affects my strategy...
I'm currently lvl 72, i have 2 point into Death Rune Mastery...so thats a 66% chance of converting...
went to Azjol-Nerub last night (god i hate that dungeon)
Now i know im a bit low to tank it, but i went with a grp that gave me a chance to prove myself...and even tho we didnt finish it, i was complimented on being able to handle myself well in sticky situations - for me i think its due to being able to have more deathrunes...was able to juggle around a few things, re-apply DnD to re-grab aggro and what not...
I personally specced into Imp.I.T cuz 1. we dont have many shamans in our guild...close to none in fact...and 2. i rarely get a shaman with me in pug runs...well i did twice this week, but they were healing...and damn good healers might i add
Now i totally aggree with you about HC...have seen much use for it except when soloing and running into huge packs of mobs....
My question still remains... FA & Acclimation - Useful? or just good on paper?
Here's the quote: "A 70 spell resistance (doable by a Paladin aura) will have a 15% damage reduction from the normal spell damage".
Again, i usually have my holy priest friend with me, and he's amazing, i never get down below 60% hp in the stickiest of situations...
Have been tanking as blood for a couple of runs now. So far, this rotation has worked for me in keeping aggro:
1) IT, PS, Pest, DnD, [DC]
2) IT, PS, [DC], Pest, BB
3) IT, PS, [DC], Pest, BB
4) Go back to 1
Whenever I tank, I make sure to ask everyone to do focus fire, so I don't have a hard time keeping the aggro, since I only rely on Diseases, Pestilence and Blood Boil most of the time and the occasional DnD when it's off CD. Death Coil is in brackets since I usually cast it while still waiting for Pestilence to light up. Weaving in HS instead of Blood Boil from time to time to refresh it's buff can also be done.
Haven't tried this though on a more aggressive group though.
~This Duck Shoots Back~
Hey guys, new to this and tanking, so I am far from knowledgable.
Here is a build that I have been using to great success so far.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (37/26/8)
It allows me to both tank and DPS depending on which presence I am using. Granted, it does not do great DPS, nor does it do great tanking. However, I have never heard a complaint from a healer yet, and a few comment that they can do more DPSing instead of flat healing. I have never had an aggro problem, even at 76 tanking for 80 DPSers. Granted, it is still early in the expac and no one has the be-all-end-all of gear yet.
One of the things I like about the Blood Tree is Vampiric Blood. Great for Prince Phase 2 fights when you really need the heals quick and strong. I have been soloing a lot of group quests while leveling and really haven't had too many issues. Sometimes I bit off more than I could chew, but for the most part, they have definately been soloable with this specc.
So far I have been pretty impressed with the Blood tanking, but what I am most impressed about the class is that you can quickly switch roles mid-fight. We were doing Violet Hold when our healer's computer DC'd and our MT warrior bit it due to the lack of heals, I popped into frost presence and picked up the slack with no problem, and with all of the blood speccs, was able to keep myself alive until the boss was dead. Granted, that was a one in a hundred occurance, but it was still great.
Once I find out what my role in the grand scheme of things are, I am going to respecc, but until then, I am going to continue to mess around with the speccs and try and find a good combination.
Another tri-specc I am looking at is
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (32/36/3)
Unfortunately, in order to still get Blood Aura, you gotta pull points out of Anticipation. The reason I wanted to keep Blood Aura over Frost is because of the possibility of all 3 speccs being in a raid and Frost and Unholy are the most common. But this build allows speccing into Unbreakable Armor.
Sorry to be so long winded, but I have been messing around with DKs since the beta opened and have been playing one as my main since expac went live.
(Blood Presence/DPS Gear)