Yes Unholy can MT. Some will say Frost is the only MT spec but Blood and Unholy just do it a bit differently. I think it will take a little while for people to accept.
I fully intend on having a DK as my main and will be a unholy tank, from what I have seen they can be great OT and MT and for the most part I am rolling him to be a magic tank
I think Frost is the easiest to accept as a tank simply because it has the most straight forward tanking stats (Frigid Dreadplate, Unbreakable Armor, longer IBF, Frost Aura, Acclimation). Blood and Unholy can each tank quite well, they just have different strengths and rely on different features. People can and will get into a long discussion over what is the "best," but if you play it well you will be able to tank anything just fine with any of the specs.
I don't know what the final lowdown is, but I suspect that Frost Aura does not stack with Pally auras, though it does stack with Druid buffs. It may be worth trumping it with the pally aura in the most intense resist situations, but then maybe not.
If you have your Frost Aura (with 50 less resist than the single pally buff), the pally can then put up Imp Conc aura for the casters, Imp Dev aura to amplify healing (and your armor if you need it), or Sanctified Ret aura for a damage increase. It's a matter of what the best net value is for your party. Your aura is also always on and isn't being exchanged for something so it can be good in all matter of situations, random trash included.
With Blizzard giving us duel specs..
What I foresee a lot of when people are breaking into T7 content...
Build 1: Unholy build for Heroics/5 Mans/Raid Trash and spec'ing into the Anti Magic Abilities so you can use this build for raid bosses where it is necessary.
Build 2: This is where you have to decide what your role is going to be and whats best for yourself and/or your raid.
- Are you off tank where dps will be your job when you don't have need for more than 1 tank?
- Are you main tank and have healers where extra mitigation, and avoidance (frost) will help the raid?
- Are you main tank and have healers where the extra stam (blood) will help the raid?
- Are you main tank and have a raid where the extra aoe / add control (unholy) will help the raid?
- Are you a casual raider who likes to arena/bg in your offtime?
These questions are something that each person is going to have to decide and remember each tree has its own benefits and has its own risks.
Last edited by Merko; 11-12-2008 at 01:36 PM.
---Satorri and Merko
I agree with what you're saying, and it probably isn't the wonder build. The key to bone shield (and the reason that it's so much better than barkskin), though, is that charges are consumed only when you take damage. E.g. when you avoid attacks it is not consumed. It follows - in much the same way that shield block almost always made a warrior uncrushable, even when they are attacked more often than twice per 5 seconds - that bone shield's effectiveness is hard to quantify perfectly but it scales as your gear does. Instead of the 25% uptime you cited Satorri,
Figuring a 2.5 second attack speed on a mob and different levels of avoidance on your gear:
40% avoidance gives bone shield a 34% uptime
50% avoidance gives bone shield a 41% uptime
60% avoidance gives bone shield a 52% uptime
70% avoidance gives bone shield a 69% uptime
Granted, 70% avoidance is a pretty incredible goal. But even with 60% avoidance, you're only being hit 9-10 times per minute. Here's the really cool part about bone shield: it works to reduce spikes automatically. When a deathknight takes 3 or 4 swings in a row, it's a spike. Given the health pool issues that deathknights logically have, it's the most significant threat to their death. Bone shield, rather than a flat 20% reduction for a duration (or some other reduction) reduces the damage by a significant amount only when you take it - very conducive to a tank whose goal is avoidance and mitigation, rather than effective health.
Example A: You're hit, missed, hit, hit. Bone shield has caused at minimum two of those strikes to hit for 40% less damage - which is ~26% reduction on the spike overall. Pretty drastic. Bone shield doesn't work in the way shield wall does - in that it's used preemptively (or reactively) - it simply waits for the damage to be taken.
However, in Example B you're hit for the same stream of attacks, but all 5 charges have already been used. Deathknights will be yearning for the talented, flat damage reductions of other classes in this scenario, and bone shield will feel like a gimmick.
To me, it's pretty attractive. The goal of this hybrid build would be one thing: hard hitting raid bosses, most likely in 25-mans, where threat is already a virtual nonissue. It's not meant for trash, and it's not meant for tanking brut or his wrath counterpart.
Given that your most generous estimation of 25% is almost not possible for single-mob tanking (depending on your gear), it might be worth rethinking. As you said, it's still not going to be the must-have talent.
Last edited by Rime; 11-12-2008 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Reworded to make the response more cohesive :)
About unbreakable armor: I love unbreakable armor, and I will most sorely miss it if I try this spec. Frost strike is also a shame. However, one thing to keep in mind is this: increasing armor by 10, 20, 30% etc does not mean you take that much less damage. Not even close to it. Because of the effect of diminishing returns on armor's damage reduction, it will have a much smaller effect.
Example: my pally has 17527 armor with no buffs (meaning no devo), and it reduces his damage taken by 62.41% (37.59% taken). With UB up, that's 21909 armor, which reduces damage taken by 67.48% (32.52% taken). Thus, unbreakable armor has reduced my incoming damage by about 13.5%. This is *during* its uptime. A fabulous tool, to be sure, but deathknights should be sure not to overestimate its effectiveness.
Good point, Rime, Avoidance (our tanking Bread and Butter) will improve the value of Bone Shield.
And you're right, the value of Unbreakable Armor is a larger uptime with smaller individual reduction.
And, oh happy day, tomorrow the DK's are born!
Hey guys new to the fourms
was just wondering im in the process of leveling my first DK
once i hit lvl 80 i will be main tank for my guild the question i have is i like blood spec and from what i have read i can do this job as blood but....
could someone help me what would be the best talent tree setup for me to use as blood remember 10/25 man main tank
and a good rotation
thanks guys and thanks for having me on the fourms ......btw DK are so much fun and dam they look cool was going to lvl my pally and tank but when i saw the shaddy looking hood when you first start at lvl 55 in greens i was hooked.
Hey, I was looking at your Frost build and after reading through the majority of replies I've come to wonder about how important hit is for a Death Knight. Like all tank classes I can assume it's a relatively important stat but is there any value to taking points from Epidemic / Two-Handed Weapon Spec. to put into Virulence? Just wondering if it is useful to a Death Knight tanking as Frost.
Alright now that I've finally fiddled away on the Death Knight for 20 levels, it's safe to say that I know a bit more than what I knew and I'm going to post my ideas here.
First, tanking without having the stats for it SUCKS. Dear gods. A class that's based on parrying needs to have the system otherwise you take a beating.
Currently I'm playing as Unholy so my knowledge is limited in this retrospect. I'm going to try tanking with all three specs once I get to 80 and let you know how that goes. My knowledge will be solely on 25 mans as well as that's going to be the guild focus.
Now. For unholy.
Single targets are simple:
IT, PS, BS, DC, BS, DC(can be replaced with Runestrike) cooldown, PS, BS -->repeat.
Most people have yet to pull off of me. 3.5k hits with a 3.5k runestrike really shoots a LOT of threat away and just makes it a deadly single target rotation.
Lil different with aoe situations with 2-5 mobs.
IT, PS, Pestilence, Bloodboil, Death Coil, Death Coil (off target), cooldown, Bloodboil, blood boil, Plague Strike --> Repeat.
This i'm having a bit of issues here and I have to look into maybe getting used to AoE. I might have to shove in somewhere an Unholy Blight. That'll be something to look at in some time or another. So far it's been people just not following my target but if anything is an instance like Hyjal, I'd like to know how to tank 5 mobs when massive AoE happens so I don't have to worry about that stuff.
So far, Unholy's been a lot of fun. Absolutely no downtime, however I don't use Plague Strike while leveling. My choice is Death Strike for the Health regen it provides. Nothing like seeing a 2k heal go off when hitting someone for about 1.4k of a crit.
More to come.
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"Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24
What about this one?
It grasps the core utility and all damage reduction of frost, the (spell) avoidance and +6% sta%str +6 expt in Blood and the basic 5% dodge and frost fever duration increase in Unholy.
The reason behind this idea is that going further down the frost tree does not improve survivability and there's enough points left to reach Veteran of the Third War in Blood, which you've got to agree is a sweet talent. The combination of Frost Aura and Spell Deflection also gives some nice magic damage reduction.
Since Blizzard spread all the tanking goodness over all 3 talent trees, this might just be the ideal hybrid spec that grabs the best combination of all, creating the best over-all DK tank.
Last edited by Síhrtogg; 11-19-2008 at 03:57 AM.
acclimation and guile of gorefiend doesn't improve survivability anymore?
new to me...
i'm confused...oh wait...maybe i'm not...
death runes are able to be used to fill in as any of the other 3 runes (blood/frost/unholy). my take on this is IF the death runes are available (with a 100% access to death runes) wouldn't you be able to set up a more consistent rotation because you wouldn't have to wait for the appropriate rune to come off CD?
On the Frost specs..shouldn't you be starting out with PS-IT instead of IT-PS because of Glacier Rot and Rime? Even with Tundra Stalker, and if PS had the same crit rate or was glyphed, it's initial damnage is too low to make that worthwhile.
IT > PS gives you 10% more damage on PS through Tundra Stalker...PS inital damage is paltry.
PS > IT gives you 10% more damage through Glacier Rot...IT has a +15% change to crit through Rime, and does more initial damage than PS.
u r right
i'm confused...oh wait...maybe i'm not...
I played beta for several months and decided to roll a DK as new main cos its simply the most fun melee class in game imo.
Now on to tanking, in beta i mainly played blood and on live i started levelling with blood but ended with finding unholy with crit based dots and permanent pet and blood till rune tap, definately the most versatile hybrid spec with no downtime at all.
Im currently level 79 and been tanking from 73, I ended up in the mid 70s with bone armor and ice fortitude as the only defense skills to use to avoid real dmg, and in some occasions i just went 100-0 in a mere 4 seconds and that was with a 15k hp back then.
Last few levels I went full frost cos the end talent seemed just amazing and tbh, it totally is THE best end talent of all, but for trash only ... its very nice if u have a 3 mob pull to mark one as main, put aoe disease up with pestilence and then pop Hungering cold, u keep the diseases up the off targets and keep them ice blocked for 10 seconds, amazing dmg reduction wich you can do practicly on every pull. But the major downside is that its totally useless on boss fights.
Now after reading this forum I came up with a hybrid tree wich if i checked correctly havent been shown yet. Its afaik the best dmg mitigation built out there with all the best stuff out of all 3 trees.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
With this hybrid spec, u get all the good stuff out of all trees, bone armor with lichborne and rune tap, cos one thing i did notice from going unholy tank to frost tank is, bone armor is so much better then unbreakable armor, especially cos u can apply bone armor before a pull or boss and thus can instantly reapply it when it wears of.
Extra benefits from the spec
- Rune tap (improved)
- Veteran of the third war (extra parry and stamina)
- Mark of blood
- Crit chance and attack power
- Dmg bonus and crit chance on death strike, combined with the crit from blood u should be sitting around 20% crit on death strike with a crit bonus of 20%, wich should top 4k on crit or something ?
- Death grip 10 sec lower cd
- Impurity, attack power affecting your diseases, free extra threat.
- Desecration, slow affect + 5% extra dmg
- Bone armor
*note: I made this spec @ 79 so took permanent pet and extra str on pet for questing, at 80 for a full tanking built the points of Pale Horse/Ravenous dead/Master of Ghouls/, should go into Necrosis (shadow dmg on auto attacks) and fill up outbreak to 3/3.
Let me know what u guys think of it cos i really think this hybrid is a winner spec with maximum mitigation out of all trees, only downside i can think of right now is ur only real dmg skill is obliterate wich will consume ur diseases, but i do think threat will be just fine without it and thus u can be spamming death strike for self heal and dmg.
Granted, I'm only level 76 at the moment, but this is the build im looking at for tanking:
So far, I havent had any trouble tanking with this basic build though will have to wait and see.
Remove one point from Blood, and Frost, two points in Unholy for the extra time for your diseases and then we're talking Ataxerxes. Those two points in unholy really help solidify a rotation.
Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian
"Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24