Death Knight F.A.Q: Questions? Answers right here!

**Hultay** · 12-11-2008 06:33 AM

I went through few thread in here. I think he is using bad spec but help me out. That is what he is using: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

**Satorri** · 12-11-2008 04:08 PM

His spec is certainly not poor for survival sake, though I can see where he'd have trouble with threat. I find it somewhat odd that he took Abom's Might and not Imp Icy Talons, usually you'll get both from your enhancement shaman.

Judging by his spec, I'm inclined to believe his biggest problem is probably his gear, though player skill may be a factor as well. The only way I would improve his survival from his spec is Mark of Blood, that is without a complete respec. I've tanked with that spec though and it was fine for me, thus my guess that his gear is what is weak.

**Bloodwraith** · 12-12-2008 02:42 PM

**Krenian** · 12-12-2008 09:55 PM

13/12/08: Fixed up some information regarding runic power and how much RP using a certain number of runes gives. This will change again come 3.0.8 apparently. If I've missed anything, please let me know so I can add it to the information

**Satorri** · 12-12-2008 10:53 PM

I have a couple adjustments:

Pertaining to hit cap, hit rating, etc. From my meters I've found that all DK "spells" appear to function on the same hit rating requirement, which is the melee special move hit rating (please someone else confirm this as well).

In addition, this hit cap appears to no longer be 9% on bosses (+3 levels), it now appears to be 8%, though the lower level %'s seem to be the same (equal level = 5%, +1 level = 6%, +2 level = 7%). For dual wielding the % seems to be 1 lower as well, so 27% on a boss level mob.

Currently, in my tank gear I have ~6.9% miss negation (226 rating), plus my racial bonus puts me at 7.9% and I track virtually no misses, on any abilities or melee attacks. The same 2 factors should leave me at only 9.6% on spell hit, but none of my "spell" moves miss at a detectable rate.

You also have an odd false line in that section:

Hit Rating at 80: 25.4 for 1%
Melee hit: 32.79
Spell hit: 26.23

**Krenian** · 12-13-2008 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Satorri

I have a couple adjustments:

Pertaining to hit cap, hit rating, etc. From my meters I've found that all DK "spells" appear to function on the same hit rating requirement, which is the melee special move hit rating (please someone else confirm this as well).

Untrue. If you remain at 8% which is your yellow melee specials, you will miss on your ITs, PS and DCs. These abilities are all magic damage and I have missed quite a few with no hit reducing abilities with only 8% hit. Yesterday's 10 man naxx, which I did not register unfortunately, proved to me that this is the case. You need 17% spell hit rating just like other casters to deal with this. When you tested your meters, were you in 10 man with a S.Priest or Boomkin or both? Or 25 man where this may be more realistic to see one of each? Both will give you a significant hit boost increase to make your spells simply not miss. However run without either and test your luck at 8% and I will gaurentee you that you will see some misses.

Originally Posted by Satorri

In addition, this hit cap appears to no longer be 9% on bosses (+3 levels), it now appears to be 8%, though the lower level %'s seem to be the same (equal level = 5%, +1 level = 6%, +2 level = 7%). For dual wielding the % seems to be 1 lower as well, so 27% on a boss level mob.

As much as this is debated, I'm staying skeptical about this one. I lowered my hit down to 8% during a raid to test the theory out and something yellow kept missing. Maybe it's something of a debuff I hadn't noticed, maybe it's because one of the two spell hit casters died, but there's something that's bothering me about this whole 8% theory and I'm not sure what it is. I'll keep testing it myself however I did change it to 8% in all of my notes and have removed the to hit 25.whatever percent that was in there for clarity. I'm not sure why I had it there anymore.

Originally Posted by Satorri

Currently, in my tank gear I have ~6.9% miss negation (226 rating), plus my racial bonus puts me at 7.9% and I track virtually no misses, on any abilities or melee attacks. The same 2 factors should leave me at only 9.6% on spell hit, but none of my "spell" moves miss at a detectable rate.

Not calling you out on this and calling you a liar but I've done testings of my own and have seen a lot of misses if I don't have my fellow Shadow Priest and Boomkin. Testings as of yesterday made me miss yellow damage, and i'm almost sure it was a lot of my 'spell' abilities like IT, PS, and DC. Now I really really wish I could have WWS'ed the sucker. I'll have to do this tonight to see if I can't figure it out.

**Satorri** · 12-14-2008 05:11 AM

My 10-mans have consisted of myself, a prot warrior, 2 holy priests, a resto druid, an arms warrior, enhancement shaman, demo lock, blood DK, and a ret pally. Funny comp, I know, but it's my group of friends (thank you Blizz for making that perfectly reasonable). Unless I forgot something in the buff shuffle, no one there can apply the (non-stacking) 3% hit buff.

Now, even if there was the 3%, with my stats, as I said I should be at 12.6% to spell hit, leaving a big ole 4.4% that will never hide in statistical probability in a raid.

Believe me, I was a little skeptical about the hit rating phenomena myself, and equally ready to disbelieve that DK's would work entirely on the melee scale, but I ran the charts a few times and I just plain don't miss, and I can't be sure why. Clearly, we need to do more testing to work out why we're having different experiences, maybe my Recount is having some trouble. I'll collect a WWS whenever I get myself into a raid next and post it along with my running stats.

**Mallagant** · 01-26-2009 09:43 AM

I have been looking for stat weights specifically for DK tanks and haven't found much.

This was posted in the DK tanking thread over at EJ by someone else looking for stat weights. The source actually came from wowhead forums. No one disputed or even mentioned the weights in the thread. That is, it seemingly was ignored.

Def 14.9
Dodge 12.5
Parry 10.2
Agility 9.8
Stam 5.5
Str 2.55
Armor 1.0

As a previous warrior tank, stam seems to be weighted a little low imo. I would also think that def’s weight would fall off after reaching 540. Is there something that corroborates or refines this stat weight listing? It is strange to me that more hasn’t been posted on tanking stat weights. Have missed a post or posts on this topic?

**Krenian** · 01-26-2009 10:16 AM

I'd be surprised that EJ doesn't have a stat weight ratio. I'll have to snoop around and find out.

**Satorri** · 01-26-2009 10:24 AM

I'm not big on stat weights in matters so variable, though that listing certainly seems a little misdirected. Strength and Stam, are two good examples that I'd set much higher.

If someone wants to set out a point system like that, I'd love to see the rationale to match it.

**NACH** · 01-27-2009 07:07 AM

Greetings! I am a new member of Tankspot.com and I would like to share my DK experiences with you all in this thread.

I rolled a DK when it was released to pursue tanking as I had always wanted to level a warrior, but never got around to it. With this in mind, my post only pertains to tanking experience I have with my DK.

First off, I would like to share my build that I created for raid tanking and utility. This spec is a hybrid and takes advantage of most of the tanking talents available to us.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I would like to point out that I recieved much criticism for not having Morbidity in this spec; however, I have found that while very nice to have, it really isn't necessary and there is no room for it in this build. As you can see, this spec has a high raid utility value to it as it buffs a raid with Improved Icy Talons, Abominable Might, and both Blood and Frost Auras. Improved Rune Tap helps if you find that a healer is a little behind or silenced. Having only one point in Epidemic was all I needed during my rotation testing, as it was those extra 3 seconds on diseases that did the trick. This build is perfect for an OT as its utility allows it to swap weapons and/or armor, along with a presence and supply some DPS when an OT is not needed.

All in all, I've raided with this spec in both 10 and 25 man content, and while I serve as an OT for my guild, I have MT'd for 10 and 25 man PUGs as well...successfully!

I want to say that after reading this post, I was alarmed to read hit cap for DW!! I have to say, that currently my hit is at about 9% (12% with DW talent) and I find that out of all my strikes and abilities, that I really only notice misses with Icy Touch.

Now I prefer DW for tanking as opposed to using a 2H. My justification is that since we don't use shields, I want an additional chance to parry an attack. That alone (I believe), contributes to my survivability as a DK tank and perhaps folks who are having "fragility" issues tanking as a DK, may want to look into dual wielding. I don't believe that DW is best to maximize DPS.

I would love to answer anyone's questions they may have for me as I'm sure I'll have some more for you all in the near future. Thanks for reading.

**Satorri** · 01-27-2009 07:23 AM

Special abilities have the same hit cap as melee swings with a 2-hander or single 1-hander (for sword n board types). You won't miss with specials since you're way over the cap, if you look at your melee swings on the other hand, you'll see significantly higher miss %.

Also, I don't think you really grasp all the dynamics. Dual wielding will only ever give you a slight edge on parry chance if you have tanking weapons, and it won't be a major gain. Also with lower level tanking gear, dual wielding will not reduce your fragility, it will make it worse until you have some decent measure of expertise.

**Mallagant** · 01-27-2009 11:51 AM

@Tony
I appreciate anything you can find. I haven't had much luck.

@Satorri
While I agree that stat weights are not the end all be all, they do provide me with some sort of quantitative method for evaluating gear. I am still early in my gear progression, especially with tanking gear, and I would like to get a feel for just how much dodge is worth vis a vis parry (other than it is worth more).

@NACH
There are some interesting posts over at ElistJerks in their tanking thread which touch on DW tanking and the effect of parry. The bottomline, from what I gather, is that parry is subject to horrible diminishing returns and as a result, should not be overvalued. There is also discussion with regard to DW increasing the chance a mob has to parry your attacks (one of the reasons melee DPS should be behind the mob and not standing on top of the tank). Parries are bad, as I am sure you know, because they speed up the next attack against you by 40% (assuming there is more than 20% left on the mobs swing timer). Some argue this leads to parry-gibbing.

**Satorri** · 01-28-2009 06:02 AM

Parry simply diminishes to a lower cap and so you'll get less benefit from Parry rating than dodge rating more quickly. Really it's not so horrendous since no one is remotely close to the cap (44%). The other problem is that even from the get go, Parry has a smaller conversion rate, so min/maxers will tell you to never ever stack parry rating in gems, and I'd generally agree for DKs since we get a LOT from Strength. By all means though, stack Strength! =)

Parry haste is a concern, and we've discussed it a lot on these boards. What seems to be abundantly clear is that if you have no Expertise, dual wield tanking will be a distinct danger, but Expertise has a steeper return in reducing that liability for dual wielders, so if you have a strong value of 20+ expertise, you won't notice a huge difference from parry haste.

**Mallagant** · 01-28-2009 06:39 AM

Thanks for clearing that up. What I read on EJ made it sound a lot worse. However, I admit that I did not read through the entire thread (it is quite long).

**Samanatha** · 01-28-2009 06:57 AM

Satorri,

First, I want to make sure I understand this correctly because I want to be hit capped. Please ignore parry and dodge chance for the sake of simplicity.

using a 2H weapon:
-with 263 hit rating (8*32.79=262.32) I would never miss any spell or melee swing
-with 164 hit rating (5%) and Virulence I would never miss any spell but my 2H weapon would miss 3% of the time

using DW weapons:
-with 268 hit rating all spells would hit but I would miss 19% of the time with weapons
-with 164 hit rating and Virulence all spells would hit but I would miss 22% with weapons (19% with Nerves of Cold Steel)

Second, what is a spell? Does everything that ends in 'strike' count as a melee hit or are they spells? If they are all spells than would the following be true?

using a 2H weapon:
-with 33 hit rating (1%), Virulence, Heroic Presence and a 3% debuff from shadow priest or moonkin our white damage would miss 6% of the time but EVERYTHING else would never miss

Thanks,

-Sam

**Krenian** · 01-28-2009 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Samanatha

Satorri,

First, I want to make sure I understand this correctly because I want to be hit capped. Please ignore parry and dodge chance for the sake of simplicity.

using a 2H weapon:
-with 263 hit rating (8*32.79=262.32) I would never miss any spell or melee swing
-with 164 hit rating (5%) and Virulence I would never miss any spell but my 2H weapon would miss 3% of the time

using DW weapons:
-with 268 hit rating all spells would hit but I would miss 19% of the time with weapons
-with 164 hit rating and Virulence all spells would hit but I would miss 22% with weapons (19% with Nerves of Cold Steel)

Second, what is a spell? Does everything that ends in 'strike' count as a melee hit or are they spells? If they are all spells than would the following be true?

using a 2H weapon:
-with 33 hit rating (1%), Virulence, Heroic Presence and a 3% debuff from shadow priest or moonkin our white damage would miss 6% of the time but EVERYTHING else would never miss

Thanks,

-Sam

Spells are not subject to dual wielding penalty. Only white hits are subject to that therefore you're still spell capped no matter what you do, whether it is dual wielding or two handed tanking. Dual wielding still has 27% but this is only 27% on white hits, nothing else. The only talent in the game that required you to either get more than 8% for physical yellow damage or 17% for magical yellow damage was Titan's Grip, which gave a 5% miss chance on ALL yellow damage skills they used. Otherwise, no skill requires more than the 8% or the 17%, subject to whatever the attack falls under (Physical or Magical)

Anything that ends with a 'strike' in it's name is a physical attack: Rune strike, frost strike, blood strike, death strike, scourge strike, etc etc etc. Anything else falls under the magic section: Death Coil, Icy Touch, Pestilence, Blood Boil, etc.

Virulence only increases spell damage, same with Misery. Therefore you're still missing 6% on hit to be capped. Only Heroic Presence pushes your hit rating by 1% and that depends on which one you get. If its the spell one, it's spell only. if it's the hit one, it's hit only. (Unsure if they merged it together finally.)

**Tarrke** · 01-29-2009 01:18 AM

It seems that they merge the two Heroic Presence in one giving 1% hit physical and magical.

**Satorri** · 01-29-2009 01:34 PM

They did Tarrke.

And, Samanatha, there are 3 different categories, each with their own miss chance:
1.) Melee swings (aka auto-attack)
2.) Melee special attacks (moves from your spell book, easy guess if it has 'strike' in the name, or is based on weapon damage like Oblit)
3.) Spells (all the non-melee abilities in your spell book, and easier if you think of them as the moves that you wouldn't do with your weapon)

The three hit caps are, respectively:
1.) 8% for a single weapon (1x 1-hander+shield or 2-hander)
27% for dual wielding (only auto-attacks, not specials)
2.) 8% (always, regardless of weapons)
3.) 17%

For a DK, even a tank, it is very reasonable to be at or near the hit cap for 2-handers and melee specials (8%). Personally, I don't gear to hit, though I like tank gear with hit when I get it, and I like the 20 hit rating to gloves, but I don't gear to hit cap when I'm tanking at the expense of other stats, and expertise, up until you have 20 on the sheet is worth double the value of hit rating (removing dodge AND parry).

**Merko** · 01-29-2009 01:39 PM

Satorri, I believe the soft exp cap is 6.5% requiring ?26? expertise. depending on race/weapon combo

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