Yeah, to me, its a definite separate but equal vibe, and I dig it. I have always respected a paladin's AoE tanking abilities, and have always been a little envious, and even though I don't think we will be quite on par, I think if we are on the ball, we as warriors should have no difficulties with the multi mobbing, and I think that the single target tanking on paladins is increasing quite a bit, isn't it?
Realistically speaking, no, it wouldn't be the +SBV from Critical Block or Shield Block. There are almost no true AOE tanking scenarios where you aren't at or very near full blocks with normal block value. That specific mechanic is why it's possible to AOE tank in the first place.Originally Posted by jere
Things might be changing in the WotLK, but it is often common currently to AoE tank multiple things that hit harder than what you block for. Mt. Hyjal is a good example. We will be getting better BV as we level (I hear up to 1500's in Naxx...is that right?), but some things we AoE tank already hit harder than that currently. However, I was more thinking of SB being a period of guaranteed blocks (I was under the assumption from other threads that warriors didn't block all the time. Is that untrue?). If warriors can't do the "gauranteed block" thing all the time, then SB would be a good on demand AoE tanking mitigation tool.Realistically speaking, no, it wouldn't be the +SBV from Critical Block or Shield Block. There are almost no true AOE tanking scenarios where you aren't at or very near full blocks with normal block value. That specific mechanic is why it's possible to AOE tank in the first place.
I did put "iffy" in there as a caveat, but having AoE tanked as long as I have, it rarely happens that I fully block all of the attacks, unless you are referring to AoE farming stuff like Black Morass trash and the regular mobs on the top of BT. I guess it depends on if you are talking about raid AoE tanking or AoE farming regular stuff (it also depends on what AoE style trash hits for in WotLK)
Last edited by jere; 10-14-2008 at 08:49 PM.
If your qualification is Hyjal, there is no reasonable way you'd be entering a 25-man raid without a Warrior who can debuff Thunder Clap. Blizzard's goal isn't to remove classes entirely from your raid composition, just give specs more flexibility.
The assumption should be that, if you're talking about raiding, you're going to have both Demo Shout and Thunder Clap available to you. It's not fair to assume otherwise, particularly since a lot of the theorycrafting being done is assuming much more restrictive things (like having a Paladin w/ BoSanc in every raid).
If you're talking about Heroics and 5-mans and AOE grinding, yeah, you're blocking for full. That hasn't suddenly changed in Wrath.
You are confusing...I wasn't complaining about not having them. I was just mentioning the different tools each class has. This isn't a contest of who has the best AoE tanking buffs. It was merely a list of the tools/talents available. I could care less if I am gauranteed TC and Demo. I am not sure why this point is even necessary? Sure in a raid situation, you can expect TC and demo to be up. That's fine. No one is saying they wouldn't be. Lots of stuff still hits harder than your BV even with both of those up (at least in the 25 man stuff we have experienced so far. We will see how WotLK pans out). Are you under the impression I am worried about it?
Some mobs in heroics hit harder than your block value. Other stuff, yep, blocking to full.
Last edited by jere; 10-14-2008 at 09:02 PM.
That fits more or less, but it leaves out Shield Block. Then again, in a 25-man situation, Thunder Clap will probably also be up. I'm willing to call it roughly equal.
You're absolutely right. Mea culpa.
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Dovie'andi se tovya sagain - it's time to roll the dice
It gets deeper than that. A class-to-class comparison doesn't work in a vacuum. The person you're quoting was referring to a difference that only matters in 5-mans, heroics, and solo grinding, that's why bringing up an argument about Mount Hyjal requires the whole issue to be reworked.
By introducing raid content, here's the logical change:
Raid Paladin:
TC + Ardent Defender + Redoubt + Holy Shield
Raid Warrior:
TC + Critical Block + Shield Block
Solo/5-Man Paladin:
Ardent Defender + Redoubt + Holy Shield
Solo/5-Man Warrior:
TC + Critical Block + Shield Block
In the raid, the Paladin's weaker AOE mitigation (while Blocks are fully effective) is accounted for because the Warrior can give the Paladin the full buff. In the 5-man and solo situation, the extra SBV from Critical Block and Shield Block is not effective to the point it imbalances the classes, strictly in mitigation.
paladin aoe threat/dps is also a pinch higher than warriors because of the thunderclap debuff
Maybe that is where the communication is having issues then. I wasn't trying to argue anything. I was just noting some other class specific AoE mitigation tools that weren't mentioned (he only mentioned TC). I wasn't trying to get into a warrior versus paladin thing.
Paladins have holy shield + redoubt and ardent defender, which warriors don't. Warriors have TC, Shield Block, and Critical block. I wasn't saying a paladin wouldn't get TC, just that a paladin doesn't provide it. I was just listing what class brought what.
I know things have been on edge in the recent past, but not a single brain cell in my mind was thinking "oh no, warriors get AoE TC and we don't" or "warriors have better AoE mitigation than paladins, QQ". Honest. I was just listing out abilities, nothing more intended in that statement. I think both sides are pretty decent. I have no complaints about it.
That wasn't meant as an insult. I am sorry if it sounded that way. I was trying to say I wasn't thinking those things at all, so you didn't misunderstand my posting.
The mad faces are meant to keep you on edge!
This post is about AE! tanking, not MTing a boss!
I only tank one raid boss at a time, ThunderJudge is just fine. If fact, for MT use it's better because it doesn't was rage/GCD - we get it "for free". REALLY looking forward to it for Kalec - which is a perfect example of why we needed it.
If I'm AE tanking, the AE debuffs can be applied by bestiality druids or any warrior, DPS or tanking.
To be realistic, the AE tanking challenges in Wrath are going to be tuned for bears and DKs, who have zero block, which means it doesn't matter which of Warriors or Paladins has the more powerful mitigation, both kick the crap out of bear/DK AE tanking mitigation and thus radically out-mitigate any AE tanking challenge in Wrath.
If you're raiding 3.0.2/TBC - well, your BV just doubled - and AE tanking was already easy from a mitigation perspective unless you're tanking ALL the aboms in MH (I've done it - we had two tanks - me and a bear)
I think the order is paladin > unholy DK > warrior = Frost DK > bear. No idea where Blood DK would be, as it seems like a poor tanking spec right now. Note that the gaps aren't that large - Unholy DK is ... 70 - 80% of Paladin AE TPS?
I think you should add: "if you can kill the AE pack in under 15-20 second"? While Shield Block is up, warriors have better mitigation, once it's down, I think paladins are going to be ahead. Redoubt & Holy Shield do soak up a lot of hits.
I used to drop a bot after the 3rd or 4th boss in Hyjal, even if I never died... most gear at 90-something percent, shield orange -> broken. Rather annoying mechanic, my shield wears our 3-4 times faster than the rest of my gear.
Anyway, for overall AE tanking of big piles of small crap, anyone can do it, but:
• Paladins have very good mitigation - close to warriors, maybe ahead, depends on size of pack and how fast they die. Call it "equal first".
• Paladins have best threat in TPS terms, second best in "round them up" terms.
So tankadins would be your first choice for "MH mk 2" where there's a lot of relatively tough stuff to AE tank that's going to take a while to kill.
I actually think 2nd choice would be DK (unholy or frost)
• Mitigation is decent - that can chain mitigation/avoidance CDs for 30-40 secs, depending on spec. Then there's 20-30 secs of getting face ripped off... kill mobs before that, KK?
• TPS second only to pallies
• Strongest ability to "round up and control" the packs. Targetable AE, personal freezy-AE-thing if frost, or pedo-hands-snare-thingy if Unholy.
Warriors have demo/tclap/shockwave, lots of mobility. AE taunt, Shield Block. If the mobs can be killed in under 15 secs, very powerful. Four-dozen Murlocks with 5k health? Have the warrior tank it. MH mk 2? Pally/DK - warrior should pick up an abom (or two).
Bears kinda suck. Swipe = front only, no block. Weak TPS. I mean, they can do it, but it's the more work for a bear than any other tank, and they have the worst mitigation and the lowest threat. Use someone else.
I am curious. Has anyone taken the time to actually do a TPS comparison of the various tank classes AoE TPS values? We do a lot of off the cuff orderings and stuff, but it would be interesting to have some real world numbers. What is a paladin's avg consecration ticking for at 80 in Naxx 10? A warrior's damage shield, shockwave, TC? A warlock or mage's AoE threat (for vigilance transfer)? A druid's swipe? The various DK AoE abilities?
I might have missed a few abilities (not feeling well atm). I am not sure if raid wide things should or should not be added (ret aura, thorns, etc.), but they could be if desired.
Anyone ever done this or have access to the numbers needed to? It would be an interesting project to say the least.
As a druid that usually raids on WOTLK with a Paladin Prot (sometimes a Warrior) I see myself as the worst AOE tank of the 4. Not by much, but all our AOE skills are directional and if we are the best for "snap" aggro generation, we are the worst for aoe "snap" aggro generation unless we use Berserk (and is directional too).
For example on Shartarion I never tank the adds for this reason, leaving the work for any other tank in the raid.
Anyway I'm ok with this, we're better AOE tanks than before (and capable of doing the same but with more work).
Follow the Moeko Principle.
That's another thing, the raid buffs have gotten spread out and are now shared among the entire raid, which means in a diverse raid you can get a lot of beneficial buffs that you didn't before (and debuffs as well). There are DPS classes who can reduce attack speed the way Tclap used to be the key buff, and the Lock/Moonkin/Unholy DK buff that increases spell dmg done to the target is now 13% instead of 10% you got only from imp CoE, which will be nice for Pally threat.
Blessing of Sanc now makes your whole tank squad nastier for having a prot pally along no matter who's tanking. If you have a strong threat margin then a warrior could even drop his Vigilance on another tank and grant more mitigation (and put himself at a comfortable second threat).
No one is here to represent the serious bears though? I'm quite interested in hearing how Bear tanking feels now.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
-----------------------------------------
Blood DK's do fine, actually Frost was the last to come to the table for survival, it was spikey, to say the least. It ranks below Frost and Unholy for AOE threat, but it certainly won't lose anything, with a reduced CD on DnD from t1 Unholy and plenty of Death Coils to throw around there's certainly no one coming loose.
I expect Blood will be one of the scariest specs to accept from traditional tanks because the spec buffs healability and self-healing more than direct mitigation. You'll get hit a bit harder, but you are easy to heal and you can heal yourself in your standard rotation for pretty remarkable amounts.
Frost actually may outperform Unholy aoe threat in burst situations. It won't beat Unholy's sustained aoe threat, but I can spike a HB very early in the fight for 6k-7k or so damage (and my gear is still mostly 80 blues) and repeat that every 6 seconds. I can also do that at range once I set up diseases (which no other tank can do). Unholy Knights essentially use old Afflic style threat, you stack DoT's on everything, that with deep Unholy really burn, but they don't spike. Unholy will slow and steady past Frost in a longer fight/pull.
I do <3 DK tanking, I wish I could be leveling my DK to 70 pre-expansion so I could hit some 70 endgame and be ready to level with the front lines instead of having to play catch up.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
-----------------------------------------
I think this is a valid point you have little to no passive aoe threat generation (ie damage shield, holy shield). Atleast you have saurfang's cleave! (my bet is druids were spying on him stealthed in cat form and realised they could imitate his cleave)
See! I didn't kill the discussion!.... I'm still watching though!
I've seen an interesting debate in the DK beta forum, on how much some enemies in WoLK will have Frost or Shadow resist, that seems to hinder two out of three type of DK, which gives an unseen advantage to blood as they rely more on pure damage and less on disease.
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