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Thread: Dual Specs & DKP

  1. #1
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    Dual Specs & DKP

    Someone brought up the question of how we will be handling the Dual Spec system with regards to loot distribution on our forums the other day and I am looking for some guidance on how to go about answering.

    So, if a pali swaps to tank for trash and ret for bosses, what is the main spec? Many bosses require fewer tanks, but trash can require more. Right now the unused tanks become gimped DPS or Heals, but with the change, they could be very effective in the "Off Spec" roles.

    I can see this being an issue to be resolved since we wont want to gimp or OT's or our dps/heals.
    my initial reaction is to go with the standby - offspec is offspec and will be treated just like it always has, which is 2nd priority after a main spec. in the above example i would say that the paladin's main spec is ret, and offspec is protection. am i looking at that in the right way even?

    this would even theoretically mean that we can bring fewer "healers" on a raid and have our paladin/druids/shaman swap back and forth on trash and bosses wouldnt it? i.e. running 4 trash healers and 6 boss healers, unless they find a way to make all the bosses require 6 healers and 4 tanks (gah!)

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavache View Post
    this would even theoretically mean that we can bring fewer "healers" on a raid and have our paladin/druids/shaman swap back and forth on trash and bosses wouldnt it? i.e. running 4 trash healers and 6 boss healers, unless they find a way to make all the bosses require 6 healers and 4 tanks (gah!)
    That's certainly a possibility, but I would be very careful in how you approach it. Players are often specced the way they are because they want to play a certain way, and requesting/expecting them to take on a separate role entirely could easily lead to drama.

    However, it's a great idea if you have people who are willing and excited to do it. Paladins or druids who want to go tank/heal would be a great asset to raid composition (extra tanks on trash, extra healers on bosses), but it's VERY important to make sure that those players would enjoy that kind of playstyle.

    My guild (I'm an officer/raid leader) will be changing almost nothing. We will not keep track of second specs and won't give out any loot based on it. It will be the same as always: main spec > offspec. We feel that the second spec is what you could use for your own personal time: pvp, grinding, dailies, or whatever, and we don't want to interfere with that. If a guild member decides (as I and most of the officers will) to have 2 specs entirely focused on raids, it will be nothing more than a reflection on that player's dedication and general usefulness. It will be their responsibility to gear that second spec and they'll get no loot priority for it.
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  3. #3
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    Effective distribution of loot is best for fast progress.

    I my experience you needed somewhere between 6 and 9 healers in BC and about 1-4 tanks.
    On the the nice things we have in WotLK is spellpower. This means that healing sets for shamans, priests and druids aren't that different from their dps set (boomkin druid and elemental shaman). So they should be able to do good dps by picking up healing pieces, making a role switch easier.
    So I don't think on the healer front there will be a problem.

    On the tank front however it's a choice you need to make. Do we gear up extra people so we can "bench" the tanks we don't need when we only need 1 tank or are we going to give our tanks the gear they need so they don't need to be benched.

    My choice would be the last because the hassle of switching people during raid is big. Also it keeps your raidgroup a tad smaller and I think more enjoyable for your tanks.

    Choice is up to you.
    (gona rewrite this post when I get home, have a hard time making my words come out the way I mean.)
    Last edited by orcstar; 10-14-2008 at 07:27 AM.

  4. #4
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    I see it continuing to stay as Main spec > Off spec.
    I had no trouble getting a nice fury set even though i raid as protection, granted some drops i scooped after dps classes had got them but alot of it was gained from me putting the effort in to farm it myself, and that is something that should be done as you would hope your guildies have enough commitment if they are needed to play that spec they would have the loot for it even if that loot isn't as good as their main spec. I see no reason that people shouldn't have multiple sets of gear that they need/could need ready and enchanted/gemmed etc properly as i had no problem doing so and I don't play as much as a lot of people I'm guilded with.


    Ultimately it will always be the spec they joined the guild to play, are best at playing and are required to play as their main and this should take priority over others looting for offspec.... enless ofcourse they don't put the effort in, show up, prove themselves to be part of the guilds progression.
    so if the choice is between a resto druid that turns up once a week and doesn't really put that much effort into the guilds progression and a feral druid there everyday for every raid who plays resto on trash/some bosses that need it most raids then theres no doubts about who should get it.

  5. #5
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    Not sure how everyone else does their guild recruiting. In my guild we say that we are looking for a healer. If a Priest applies to the guild - we let him know we are looking for healers. He says, "OK", and joins up. Later on, if he decides he wants to do DPS, he gets moved to the back of the queue with the other DPSers.

    Same goes for all raid roles. Just because I happen to need 1 more tank, or 1 fewer healer for a stupid trash pull, does not warrant a player to roll on a piece of gear that drops from the boss.

    Just because you can change specs on the fly does not mean that players will not have 1 "primary" spec. Sure there will be players out there with the hours and resources available to gear up, and get good at both specs. But I imagine most players will not.
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  6. #6
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    Tell them to chose a main spec and an off spec. Mainspec > offspec still. Not a big deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krashtork View Post
    Tell them to chose a main spec and an off spec. Mainspec > offspec still. Not a big deal.
    Well why not let people choose "dualspec".
    This way gear earned in a raid doesn't get spread among too many people and you wouldn't have to swap in and out any people anymore.

    Maybe 1 or 2 assigned dualspec dps-ers(who can also tank).
    And a gearpriority like Mainspec>Dualspec>Offspec.

    This way gear gets spread over less people and will be put to more efficient use.

    Because it's better to gear up one dualspeccer then divide items between 10 offspeccer who want for vanity. (maybe that last thing isn't true but I can remember the drama over loot when we as a guild decided that 1 person (a holy pala who went prot) needed to be geared up. It really was for the good of the guild, but some people cared more about an offspec tier token.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    Well why not let people choose "dualspec".
    This way gear earned in a raid doesn't get spread among too many people and you wouldn't have to swap in and out any people anymore.

    Maybe 1 or 2 assigned dualspec dps-ers(who can also tank).
    And a gearpriority like Mainspec>Dualspec>Offspec.

    This way gear gets spread over less people and will be put to more efficient use.

    Because it's better to gear up one dualspeccer then divide items between 10 offspeccer who want for vanity. (maybe that last thing isn't true but I can remember the drama over loot when we as a guild decided that 1 person (a holy pala who went prot) needed to be geared up. It really was for the good of the guild, but some people cared more about an offspec tier token.
    I think I see where you're trying to go, but I think they are talking about the first 1 or 2 drops of a particular item, not the 5th or 10th. Say, a piece of Plate gear with Dodge and Defense on it. Should the Pally that plays Ret 90% of the time, and Prot 10% of the time be able to roll on it when it first drops?

    Should I be able to roll on all 2h weapons because I like to DPS as Arms on occasion?

    The way I see it, gearing people for an offspec is no different than gearing an alt. The only difference between swapping players or characters around and swapping specs around is the time involved. You are still essentially gearing 2 different characters or specs.
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

  9. #9
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    Assigning certain players to be "Dualspec" is a terrible idea. It will cause extreme jealously and discontent due to obvious favoritism.

    "What!? Why does he get to be dual spec?! why does he get to roll primary for two specs worth of gear!??"

    Oh boy, i can hear it now...
    Tanks: We like it rough.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krashtork View Post
    Assigning certain players to be "Dualspec" is a terrible idea. It will cause extreme jealously and discontent due to obvious favoritism.

    "What!? Why does he get to be dual spec?! why does he get to roll primary for two specs worth of gear!??"

    Oh boy, i can hear it now...
    In the end it all comes down why your are raiding. If the people in the raid just want a big pile of purples for themselves, then dualspec will cause drama.

    If on the other hand you want to have as little loot as possible go to waste but instead help your raid get high average gear you go with dualspec.

    Everytime that dps gear drop but hey, noone can use it, but one of your dps-ers is benched because it was a 4 tank fight.
    Or that tankpiece goes to some random offspec, just because it's a 1 tank fight and the rest of your tanks is benched.

    No, logically dualspec is the way to go. I can however digg the argument of lootdrama.

    It's just where your prio is.

  11. #11
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    We had a lively discussion in our guild the other night about this. One of my guildies is convinced that if Bliz adds a tool to the game, they will program raids with it in mind.

    As an example, he thinks that we could see raid bosses later on that might have out of combat times between phases that would require people to shift spec. Maybe a boss that will be immune to a particular element on each phase. Or maybe a new version of the Naxx boss that only lets healers cast once per minute, but with heavier healing requirements and very low damage requirements.

    If so, that might change some people's view. There's still the whole argument of if the 2nd spec should be raid related or not to deal with too.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    If on the other hand you want to have as little loot as possible go to waste but instead help your raid get high average gear you go with dualspec.

    Everytime that dps gear drop but hey, noone can use it, but one of your dps-ers is benched because it was a 4 tank fight.
    Or that tankpiece goes to some random offspec, just because it's a 1 tank fight and the rest of your tanks is benched.
    Read my 2nd post in this threat (#8).
    There's a huge difference between an item dropping for the very first time, and an item dropping for the 11th time - and no one wants it anymore.

    I think everyone agrees that if there is no player present that wants something for the job they do the "majority" of the time, give it to someone else who may only use it for farming dailies.

    The main issue is the first time you kill a boss, and have to decide loot for that first piece of gear. Even tanks will be wanting DPS gear, both for use while tanking, and other activities. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a Plate DPS item go into the shard pile when the Fury Warrior all ready has it. Of course you will let the tanks in the group have it if they could use it.

    But what do you do for the first time it drops? Forget about the 3rd, 4th and 23rd time the item drops. By then you can give Plate to Priests and Mp5 gear to Warriors and it will not make a difference.
    Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    ....But what do you do for the first time it drops? Forget about the 3rd, 4th and 23rd time the item drops. By then you can give Plate to Priests and Mp5 gear to Warriors and it will not make a difference.
    While we say it different I think we agree. But appointing dualspecs like a furywarrior who is assigned off-tank or a boomkin druid who is also assigned off-tank and let them get also first prio on tanking gear "after" the big maintanks, or at least so they can also do their tanking role when not dpsing, instead of letting it go ffa/offspec, and everyone and his grandmother who might even think about a glorious tanking career in the far far future will roll on it.
    That's why I said: mainspec>dualspec>offspec.

  14. #14
    Orcstar's idea isn't bad at all really. I mean, its a different matter really when you have gear going to help someone's second raiding spec as opposed to (say) something someone wants to play with in PVP?

    Personally though, we don't have a priority system in the guild and largely let min-bids take care of the offspec stuff.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    In the end it all comes down why your are raiding. If the people in the raid just want a big pile of purples for themselves, then dualspec will cause drama.

    If on the other hand you want to have as little loot as possible go to waste but instead help your raid get high average gear you go with dualspec.

    Everytime that dps gear drop but hey, noone can use it, but one of your dps-ers is benched because it was a 4 tank fight.
    Or that tankpiece goes to some random offspec, just because it's a 1 tank fight and the rest of your tanks is benched.

    No, logically dualspec is the way to go. I can however digg the argument of lootdrama.

    It's just where your prio is.
    To some degree everyone has a purple whore streak in em. Everyone wants them but for different reason. Some people wanna inflate the Epeen, some want to look cool, others like myself want to be maximumly viable for the next encounter. Loot drama will happen. There's nothing wrong in my mind for wanting as many shiny purples as can benefit you, I would suggest that this is the true nature of most gamers. If this wasn't the case then loot council wouldn't suck so bad.

    But yes, mainspec>dualspec>offspec does seem to make a great deal of sense.
    Tanks: We like it rough.

  16. #16
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    Yep i think we'll be going mainspec>dual spec>offspec. This allows the raid to reward those who use a secondary spec for raid purposes rather than pvp. Im not sure to nominate a few for it or leave it open slather. Its probably more important to gear a few in dual specs sooner.

    Perhaps even awarding some extra points per raid that someone carries dual raiding specs? As some might use their second spec for pvp in the early days while most gear goes to main spec

  17. #17
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    Karma system over dkp is probably the best way to end the whine.
    You basicly have 3 stages in your karma, Good , Neutral , Bad.
    You get karma by : Attending Raids
    You lose karma by : Leaving raids in a hissy fit over loot , or trying to screw others out of the loot.

    Epic Loot drops:
    1. The good karma guy points to his current gear and links it to the chat.
    2. The neutral karma guy points to his current gear and links it to the chat.
    3. The bad karma guy is just happy that his karma will go up.

    The good karma guy sais: I am currently tank , but as you all know i am dps that just made this spec so we could raid. And this being a dps item that i can use in my main spec. Can i roll for it?

    The neutral karma guy sais: I offtanked in this raid and my main spec is also dps since both our tanks for some mysterious reason have gone into hibernation. Can i also roll for this item?.

    The bad karma standing dps'r drools over the Epic item that fits his spec and laughs madly that the raid leader will just say no , we are gonna give this to a dps cause you both get loot priority on tank items this run.

    In a dkp enviroment, the spec + dkp would have settled this so that probably the bad standing member had hoard up and bitched over loot and loot and loot. So it hardly matters if he gets the minor upgrade. In a karma system the good standing members will get the roll due to his GOOD standing and healthy attitude. The neutral standing member will not get his roll due to that he is being stepped over this round, and should he bitch over the desition he would probably be placing himself in a bad standing for next round.

    It may or may not be the best system , but its a easy one to follow. I can also suggest for a Neutral player to gain good standing is to look at all the bad standing members and if they have really crappy gear to be getting the item instead thus placing the neutral standing member into a Good standing situation and thus be able to get a loot priority for another day.
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  18. #18
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    Dual-Spec&Guild Drama

    I think that the Dual spec system will make it hard for you to have dkp in a way....because you have the people who were holy pre-Dual-specing and then you have the people who are shadow/holy or protection/holy durning the dual specing process so eaither will whine if they dont recieve the gear that they think they deserve if you have kids in your guild and in a way it will make raiding easier to say.....but honestly how hard will a raid leader's job be durning loot distribution with these so called "Dual-Spec" Is raiding really even fair for the people that were raiding for their main spec before hand?
    Last edited by banger; 12-04-2008 at 02:56 PM.

  19. #19
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    With DKP this shouldn't have to be an issue, since you decide what you will buy yourself. If you decide to buy an item for off-spec, it's you choice. You might get evil looks from other members if you are snatching a attractive piece, say buying a tank-item when you play dps 95% of the time, but still this means that the tanks will have lots of chances to buy other items before you have earned enough DKP to snatch next piece. There might be other rules that the guilds set to themselves, but with abit of common sence, you will get far.

    It's abit harder if you don't have DKP, but still I think it's the best if a player chose which spec he wishes to upgrade _before_ the raid, therefor making it alot easier for the RL, and/or other people in the raid, to accept Roll-choices the player makes.

    If you have some that always complains when other gets items instead of them, and/or Rolls for about every item that drops, maybe it's time to speak nicely to them to either accept the system you/your guild got, or to just go baho, and seek another raid-guild.

    My 2 pennys of thoughts.

  20. #20
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    We haven't been talking much about this in my guild, but it is an issue.

    Mainspecc > Offspecc will still apply. Players that can have several roles will just have to pick one as their mainspecc, simple as that.

    The issue is the DPS that sometimes specc healer/tank on specific fights or similar. The idea we have thrown around is that you basicly will have to tell us that you are a offspecc tank/healer. If you are, then you are also expected to already have a passable set, and be able to dualspecc in raids.

    Basicly, Mainspecc > Active Offspecc who already is offtanking/offhealing > the rest.

    As for 25mans we use DKP, if you want gear, then buy it. It will be a slight problem there as well, with people not wanting to waste DKP on their offspecc, but I really can't see any way to solve it.

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