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Thread: WOTLK Feral Druid Guide

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhoc View Post
    i noticed in both your cat dps spec you took the 'last stand' talent and not berserk, berserk is mandatory for any dps druid, and last stand does 0 for your dps.
    I was thinking along the same lines as this, but after dpsing on a few of the fights (Cat Lady comes to mind). Im going to add a point in SI I think, it seems like it would still be a good thing to have in a situation where aggro is Null, and something can effectively kill you before you get a heal. Also, if I do have to pop out and tank something, say adds on XT,Kolo,Freya or something I can at least survive long enough by switching to Bear, using SI until the other tank can pick stuff up, or a BR can be given to the dead tank.

    For one talent point, this ability has its many uses in different "what if" scenarios
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  2. #122
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    hard mode hodir and hard mode mimiron are 2 reasons to have SI (hard mode IC to a degree too)



  3. #123
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    If you're going to come, come correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Next time try to use correct talents. ImpM is a 2 point talent that increases all stats by 1% per point.
    Next time you try to correct someone, L2Acronym first. ImpM = Improved Mangle, Imp MotW = Improved Mark of the Wild, which is the two point restoration talent that increases all stats by 1/2%. The discussion that was currently taking place, and the direct quote that I was responding to were both in regards to ImpM. Isn't this your thread? I expect better.

    FYI readers, Imp MotW should be considered mandatory. Another indicator that if I'm a decent tank at all I clearly wasn't talking about it here.
    Last edited by lucero; 06-01-2009 at 08:50 AM.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucero View Post
    Isn't this your thread? I expect better.
    Pwnt

  5. #125
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    Updated for 3.1

    Still working on fixing the builds and glyphs as wowhead was down until just a bit ago



  6. #126
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    Feral DPS Talent Tree and Rotation Guide.

    Note: Font size/style may change during this, Had to copy paste from word and it will not resize properly. (sorry).
    Link to this build at bottom of page. (I suggest you do read this guide though).
    After a long time of trial and error, reading various forums and tests, i am very confident that this is the best (at this time) feral druid dps talent tree. There are only about 5 talents that can be changed around depending on your raid or tank needs.

    - Improved Mangle: Too many druids just spam mangle as much as they can until they have 5 combo points. Mangle should only be used once per rotation to keep the bleed effect up. Make sure you have the glyph of mangle, for the increased duration.

    - Feral Agression: I have seen too many feral dps druids overlook this talent. It is mostly because they do not read the fine print. 5/5 it gives an extra 15% damage to ferocious bite. 5 combo points with savage roar, a bleed effect (for the extra 50% crit on ferocious bite) and maybe a trinket, and this finishing move can hit extremely hard.

    - Shredding Attacks: For the rotation i use it is essential to be specced into as i use shred, rather than mangle to build up combo points.

    - Survival of the Fittest: A 6% increase to attributes is obviously a great boost. Yet this can be specced away from if you are a little casual about your dps and would like to spec into a talent better for your personal rotation. I personally like the fact that i get the extra boost to my stats and its nice that if i do somehow get aggro (mostly from a 20k ferocious bite to a boss, or an aoe swipe crit of 7-8k on trash), that i cannot be critically hit.

    - Infected wounds: Some of you may be thinking that this is strictly a pvp talent, now while the movement imparing effect obviously will not work on a raid boss, it still reduces the attack speed. (Think of it this way, a raid boss that parries a tanks attack has an increased haste on its next swing, having infected wounds up will almost negate this effect). Plus it's nice having a boss swinging 20% slower, especially in an enraged situation.
    !!! I have read that there was a bug where if a dk was in the raid, it would negate this effect, would like some feedback on this!!!

    - Feral Charge: Please avoid the urge to spec into this. While there are situations where this could possibly be useful - eg. start of boss encounter, leap in with a quick pounce as to not lose to much time before you can actually approach it. (I think Night Elf Druids can avoid this by activating the racial abilty - Shadowmeld. Run behind boss in cat form unstealthed use shadowmeld and pop pounce quickly - I play a horde druid so i don't know if this works or not. If not then just stop reading this sentence about here. However. If you play as a Night Elf you should be very ashamed of yourself).
    This talent should be generally avoided.

    -Naturalist: This talent is used in Feral trees more than it is used in the actual Restoration tree. I have seen Balance druids speccing into this. PLEASE READ IT PROPERLY. Increases the damage you deal with PHYSICAL ATTACKS. A huge waste of 5 talent points.
    A must if you are a feral dps. 10% extra damage.

    - Natural Shapeshifter/Master Shapeshifter: If you are a higher geared druid, you may aswell spec away from these 2 different talents and save 5 talent points. This is because Druid feral dps have an insane ammount of critical strike rating. I would suggest that if You can keep 50% crit without the talent, you may aswell do so. (Maybe into Improved MOTW for a happy raid and 2% extra to attributes).

    That is about all i have to say for the talent tree side of things.

    How about some Glyphs to match that shiny new talent tree?
    I have found this is about the best combination of glyphs to use for feral dps.

    Glyph of Mangle: Increases the duration of Mangle by 6 seconds.
    (If you use my rotation listed further below, you should only be using Mangle once per rotation. So the glyph is a must to keep up the extra bleed effect damage, without actually having to spam Mangle).

    Glyph of Shred: Each time you use shred, the duration of Rip is increased by 2 sec, up to a max of 6 sec.
    This is pretty much win because the main attack to be using to build combo pts should be shred, after 1xMangle and 1xRake.

    Glyph of Savage Roar: Your Savage Roar ability grants an additional 6% bonus damage done.

    These 3 Major glyphs are best to use, don't bother with the Glyph of berserk. the extra 5 sec isnt too useful for pve. only get about 2 extra attacks in.

    Minor glyphs, Nothing really special here. the only useful one is the rebirth one, the other 2 are pretty much up to you.

    Now what use is a good talent tree if the rotation you are using is flawed?

    - My personal rotation-

    Trash: 1x Mangle For my Idol of Terror to proc, 65 agility for 10 sec.(Best in slot Idol until emblem idols/late ulduar idol, i use it for trash only).
    Savage Roar/Trinket, spam Swipe. (Use Tiger's Fury soon as you're out of energy, or Berserk if you really wana go crazy).

    Heroic Boss: Berserk, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo pts, Ferocious Bite. (No point using savage roar, by the time you have built up enough combo points again it's almost dead).

    Raid Boss: (This consists of 3 rotations)
    1. Pounce, Fairy fire, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo points, Savage Roar.
    2. Same thing again but instead use Rip instead of Savage roar.
    3 Again same thing but use ferocious bite as finishing move.
    Then just keep up bleed effects and savage roar.

    Using beserk depends on what stage of a fight you are in, if you want to use it with a bloodlust or use it to get your main bleed effects and Savage Roar up.

    Also spam Tiger's Fury whenever you can.

    You will notice i only use 1 Mangle, this is just to keep the extra bleed damage up. you can pull alot more dps if you spam shred instead of mangle. (Hence why the talent tree doesn't have improved mangle, and its specced into shredding attacks).

    Now This Link to this "Best Talent tree" you have all scrolled straight past all of this for. (Hope this link works, if it doesn't please let me know asap and i'll try change it).

    The World of Warcraft Armory
    Last edited by Smoosh; 06-16-2009 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Link was Flawed. Last time should work now.

  7. #127
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    /sigh

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Improved Mangle: Too many druids just spam mangle as much as they can until they have 5 combo points. Mangle should only be used once per rotation to keep the bleed effect up. Make sure you have the glyph of mangle, for the increased duration.

    WHAT!? I do not know any feral druids who just spam mangle as cat. Also on most fights glyph of mangle is not needed even if you are doing your own mangle, but it certainly helps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Feral Agression: I have seen too many feral dps druids overlook this talent. It is mostly because they do not read the fine print. 5/5 it gives an extra 15% damage to ferocious bite. 5 combo points with savage roar, a bleed effect (for the extra 50% crit on ferocious bite) and maybe a trinket, and this finishing move can hit extremely hard.

    At most, ferocious bite is 6-7% of your DPS. 15% increase is only 1% of your total DPS. 5 talent points for a 1% dps increase when there is so much other better stuff to take. No thanks.

    Also we do read the fine print, it's not that fine. But maybe you should read the fine print. Rend and Tear is only 25% crit on FB now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Survival of the Fittest: Yet this can be specced away from if you are a little casual about your dps and would like to spec into a talent better for your personal rotation.

    No, it can't be skipped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Infected wounds: Some of you may be thinking that this is strictly a pvp talent, now while the movement imparing effect obviously will not work on a raid boss, it still reduces the attack speed. (Think of it this way, a raid boss that parries a tanks attack has an increased haste on its next swing, having infected wounds up will almost negate this effect). Plus it's nice having a boss swinging 20% slower, especially in an enraged situation.
    !!! I have read that there was a bug where if a dk was in the raid, it would negate this effect, would like some feedback on this!!!

    This clearly shows you have absolutely no concept of game mechanics. Improved Thunderclap, Judgement of the Just, Improved Icy Touch, and IW all reduce the bosses attack speed by 20% and they do not stack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Feral Charge: Please avoid the urge to spec into this. While there are situations where this could possibly be useful - eg. start of boss encounter, leap in with a quick pounce as to not lose to much time before you can actually approach it. (I think Night Elf Druids can avoid this by activating the racial abilty - Shadowmeld. Run behind boss in cat form unstealthed use shadowmeld and pop pounce quickly - I play a horde druid so i don't know if this works or not. If not then just stop reading this sentence about here. However. If you play as a Night Elf you should be very ashamed of yourself).
    This talent should be generally avoided.

    WHAT?! Seriously dude. Stop writing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Natural Shapeshifter/Master Shapeshifter: If you are a higher geared druid, you may aswell spec away from these 2 different talents and save 5 talent points. This is because Druid feral dps have an insane ammount of critical strike rating. I would suggest that if You can keep 50% crit without the talent, you may aswell do so. (Maybe into Improved MOTW for a happy raid and 2% extra to attributes).

    Considering you should have Imp MOTW no matter what...... terrible advice a cat has no where else to spend these points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    Glyph of Savage Roar: Your Savage Roar ability grants an additional 6% bonus damage done.

    Do you read patch notes? this was nerfed to 3% before it even went live
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post

    Raid Boss: (This consists of 3 rotations)
    1. Pounce, Fairy fire, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo points, Savage Roar.
    2. Same thing again but instead use Rip instead of Savage roar.
    3 Again same thing but use ferocious bite as finishing move.
    Then just keep up bleed effects and savage roar.

    NEVER.... EVER... Use pounce.

    1) most bosses pull you out of stealth as soon as they enter combat
    2) even if they don't it is more efficient to mangle out of stealth than pounce.

    5/5/5 is good if you have a lot of ArP and the shred idol. If you are using the rip idol and low on ArP do not use FB except during berserk.




  8. #128
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    What this convo really boils down to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Improved Mangle: Too many druids just spam mangle as much as they can until they have 5 combo points. Mangle should only be used once per rotation to keep the bleed effect up. Make sure you have the glyph of mangle, for the increased duration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    /sigh


    WHAT!? I do not know any feral druids who just spam mangle as cat. Also on most fights glyph of mangle is not needed even if you are doing your own mangle, but it certainly helps.
    I actually know tons of feral druids that do this. I've been arguing against it all along. Not everyone is smart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Feral Agression: I have seen too many feral dps druids overlook this talent. It is mostly because they do not read the fine print. 5/5 it gives an extra 15% damage to ferocious bite. 5 combo points with savage roar, a bleed effect (for the extra 50% crit on ferocious bite) and maybe a trinket, and this finishing move can hit extremely hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post

    At most, ferocious bite is 6-7% of your DPS. 15% increase is only 1% of your total DPS. 5 talent points for a 1% dps increase when there is so much other better stuff to take. No thanks.
    Eh, if I ever got to go cat spec I would probably take this talent. Ferocious bite is a large part of my rotation, particularly with shred reapplying/prolonging my rip from glyph. Much more finishers available for ferocious bite this way. However, I'm one of two or three main tanks in my guild so I never do get to go cat spec. =(

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Shredding Attacks: For the rotation i use it is essential to be specced into as i use shred, rather than mangle to build up combo points.
    Yeah, I've seen cats pass this up and I don't follow. I shred way too much to pass this talent up. I even take it in my hybrid bear spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Survival of the Fittest: A 6% increase to attributes is obviously a great boost. Yet this can be specced away from if you are a little casual about your dps and would like to spec into a talent better for your personal rotation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post

    No, it can't be skipped.
    He's got you there. You absolutely can't skip this talent as any kind of feral.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Infected wounds: Some of you may be thinking that this is strictly a pvp talent
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post

    This clearly shows you have absolutely no concept of game mechanics. Improved Thunderclap, Judgement of the Just, Improved Icy Touch, and IW all reduce the bosses attack speed by 20% and they do not stack.
    It would be folly to think it is a strictly pvp talent. That being said, I run with a warrior. My IW would always be overwritten so I don't take it. As Dark pointed out, all of the above also overwrite it, so unless you are on some server where, but by the grace of God, no one decided to roll Death Knight (if that is the case please let me know so I can transfer there ASAP), then you probably don't need IW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Feral Charge: Please avoid the urge to spec into this. While there are situations where this could possibly be useful - eg. start of boss encounter, leap in with a quick pounce as to not lose to much time before you can actually approach it.
    This talent should be generally avoided.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post

    WHAT?! Seriously dude. Stop writing.
    While I agree it isn't strictly required, there are TONS of situations where it helps. For instance, Anub'Rhekan impales (or simply running back to boss after killing crypt guard), Malygos phase 2 knockbacks, XT-02 re-entries after gravity bomb, etc., etc. Any of these situations if your feral charge is off cooldown you are back in the fight sooner and therefore cranking out more dmg than otherwise possible. In some situations it can save you from taking fall damage a la the ole bear bomb, therefore relieving some stress on healers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - Natural Shapeshifter/Master Shapeshifter: If you are a higher geared druid, you may aswell spec away from these 2 different talents and save 5 talent points. This is because Druid feral dps have an insane ammount of critical strike rating. I would suggest that if You can keep 50% crit without the talent, you may aswell do so. (Maybe into Improved MOTW for a happy raid and 2% extra to attributes).
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post

    Considering you should have Imp MOTW no matter what...... terrible advice a cat has no where else to spend these points.
    Yeah, Imp MotW is required. Dark, I see you're improving with those acronyms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    - My personal rotation-

    Heroic Boss: Berserk, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo pts, Ferocious Bite. (No point using savage roar, by the time you have built up enough combo points again it's almost dead).
    Why not apply savage roar on the second or third combo point then? The combo points increase its duration, not its effectiveness. That's what I do in a situation like this, and for a tank/hybrid spec (Despite usually being the better geared tank, I make myself OT so I can kitty when not tanking-increasing the overall raid dps), gemmed, enchanted and glyphed to tank, I still out-dps many in raids and heroics (when I do get to go cat, which is admittedly rare).

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoosh View Post
    Raid Boss: (This consists of 3 rotations)
    1. Pounce, Fairy fire, 1x Mangle, 1x Rake, Shred until 5 combo points, Savage Roar.
    2. Same thing again but instead use Rip instead of Savage roar.
    3 Again same thing but use ferocious bite as finishing move.
    Then just keep up bleed effects and savage roar.

    Also spam Tiger's Fury whenever you can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post

    NEVER.... EVER... Use pounce.
    ONLY.... EVER... Use pounce...when PVPing. /fixt

    Also, just to add something more to the conversation than Darksend's stereotypical, overly aggressive criticisms of Smoosh's post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post

    1) most bosses pull you out of stealth as soon as they enter combat
    2) even if they don't it is more efficient to mangle out of stealth than pounce.

    1) If I'm opening in stealth, I open with Ravage. It does a shit ton more dmg than mangle (385% +514 at rank 5 compared to 160% +761 at Rank 5 [which is the highest rank for both]), usually critting for between 8-9k with my tank build. Opening with mangle from stealth seems about as fail as opening with pounce. Let's just say your base attack was 1000 dmg for ease of mathematics, because I hate math. That would be 4364 dmg from ravage and 2361 from mangle. Ravage should be your stealth opener in nearly every circumstance. The only time I don't open with it is if the tank moves the boss around and I would be better to get my rotation going than to spend the time to try to readjust to get behind the boss.

    2) Aside from that my rotation is very close to Smooth's. I would note that aside from just spamming tiger's fury whenever you can, I find it best to pop it right after savage roar so a) I'm getting the increased dmg done from TF on top of SR and b) it restores a big ole chunk of my energy so I can get my bleeds up/refreshed.

    3) HOWEVER, What I'm really interested in discussing, and would love some input on is related to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post

    5/5/5 is good if you have a lot of ArP and the shred idol. If you are using the rip idol and low on ArP do not use FB except during berserk.
    First of all, I have no idea what Darksend is talking about with the 5/5/5. I would love some clarification on that. I'm missing something.

    That aside, the rest of the statement raises a question. The answer to this question is probably the best thing that could come of this debate that has otherwise consisted of a well-intentioned, yet less-informed druid being the source of yet another Darksend e-peen flexfest.

    It relates to something that I actually tried manually for a while, which is obviously not going to work. Idols, as we all ought to know, are considered our "ranged" slot and are therefore rightfully considered a weapon. They can be changed during combat. I have tried to manually swap between my shred idol and my rip idol prior to applying rip and back to shred after rip is up. The benefits of this are abundantly clear.

    My question is....who out there wants to write the frigging macro that binds an idol swap to shred and rip for the rest of us out here who lack the coding skills?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    If you are up to the task, the idols that need binded are Idol of the Ravenous Beast macroed to equip prior to shredding and Idol of Worship macroed to equip prior to ripping. You will win the favor of feral druids the world over. BEGIN!

    Oh, also...here's a friggin' cat spec if ever I saw one.

    It's missing absolutely nothing. ImpM, as I've stated eslewhere, is a really bad talent to take. The only situation I can think of where mangle spamming is appropriate is on Thaddius if you get stuck with the same charge as the tank. Oh, that and soloing during dailies or whatever.

    The only thing I'm not clear on is Protector of the Pack. Like I said, I never get to go cat spec, so I'm not sure, but if I'm reading the tooltip correctly the AP increase is only in bear form, which means I was right to leave it out. If it actually applies the AP in cat as well you'd have to take it and drop three points somewhere.

    The World of Warcraft Armory


    ADDENDUM: Yeah, we could all just build an armor set with each idol, bind each to a key, and swap them that way, but I have enough key binds. So, please...still write those macros!!!

    edited to add the above addendum and the bit about Smoosh having good intentions because he did.
    Last edited by lucero; 06-16-2009 at 12:37 PM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucero View Post


    First of all, I have no idea what Darksend is talking about with the 5/5/5. I would love some clarification on that. I'm missing something.
    He is talking about building to 5 combo points I would assume. The debate on whether to build to 5 before using a finisher has been going on for all eternity.

    I will ask though, I still build to 4 out of habit, but I am a

    Mangle
    Rake
    Shred (x2 if not at 4CP)
    SR
    Tiger
    Shred
    Rake
    Rip(or shred again for 4CP)
    Mangle
    Shred
    Rake(if not at 4 CP shred)
    Refresh SR if it is below 8 seconds, if above 8 seconds... FB


    Repeat

    This has worked out well for me, its not a set rotation but if I had to write it down.. it'd be something like that since its more of a priority than anything else. Though I still want to know if going to 5 is or when would it be better? If it is I have some old habits to break.
    You do realize why the Borg are so bad at making dimmer switches don't you?
    Resistance is futile.



  10. #130
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    While I agree it isn't strictly required, there are TONS of situations where it helps. For instance, Anub'Rhekan impales (or simply running back to boss after killing crypt guard), Malygos phase 2 knockbacks, XT-02 re-entries after gravity bomb, etc., etc. Any of these situations if your feral charge is off cooldown you are back in the fight sooner and therefore cranking out more dmg than otherwise possible. In some situations it can save you from taking fall damage a la the ole bear bomb, therefore relieving some stress on healers.
    I like how you conveniently edited out the part where he talks about shadowmeld. I don't even know if that was English.

    1) If I'm opening in stealth, I open with Ravage. It does a shit ton more dmg than mangle (385% +514 at rank 5 compared to 160% +761 at Rank 5 [which is the highest rank for both]), usually critting for between 8-9k with my tank build. Opening with mangle from stealth seems about as fail as opening with pounce. Let's just say your base attack was 1000 dmg for ease of mathematics, because I hate math. That would be 4364 dmg from ravage and 2361 from mangle. Ravage should be your stealth opener in nearly every circumstance. The only time I don't open with it is if the tank moves the boss around and I would be better to get my rotation going than to spend the time to try to readjust to get behind the boss.
    Except you forget one thing:

    34 energy vs 60 energy.

    Now 5/5/5 is 5 sr 5 rip 5 bite. Using this, your rip will ALWAYS fall off.

    as for idol swapping: DO NOT. It resets your white swing timer. The loss of white dps is not worth the gain.



  11. #131
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    I know that a hybrid bear/cat spec (primarily bear in groups, cat or tree in raids) isn't the best in anyway but I would like to have the best glyphs I can for what I normally do. Currently running Savage Roar, Maul, Berserk. SR for when I cat, Maul for tanking, and Berserk for both. Any better choices?

    I really wish they had try spec as I could then have a normal bear spec and cat spec, but as of now I'm more helpful/effective with bearcat/tree.

  12. #132
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    SR, SI, frenzied regen.



  13. #133
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    Thanks!

  14. #134
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    Hee hee

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    I like how you conveniently edited out the part where he talks about shadowmeld. I don't even know if that was English.
    lol b/c it's true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Except you forget one thing:

    34 energy vs 60 energy.
    As we've both agreed before, cat druids probably shouldn't have ImpM. So, unless you are a bear who specced 3 into ImpM (I don't even take it in bear), Mangle costs 40 energy. This means Ravage only costs 1/3 more than Mangle, but does nearly double the damage. Again, Ravage is the better opener from stealth. Of course, anyone can play their toon however they want, but that's my two cents.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Now 5/5/5 is 5 sr 5 rip 5 bite. Using this, your rip will ALWAYS fall off.
    Thanks for the clarification. This is something I admittedly haven't toyed with much, but I recently went and beat on a heroic target dummy for close to thirty minutes, trying different rotations where I only built to four combo points for various finishers. In every instance my dps dropped by about 100. Obviously this could just be because I was still getting used to new rotations. I'd also like to note that I don't always build to five on each as it is, I basically base my rotation on a case by case basis, but on the target dummy the other day, my dps was definitely higher doing a 5/5/5 rotation.

    Addendum: Anyone reading this: please don't take that as an endorsement of a 5/5/5 rotation. I initially only said that my rotation was close to Smoosh's. I'm not endorsing it, I'm only saying something close to it is what seems to work best for me. What I would endorse is trying different rotations and find what works best for you!
    Last edited by lucero; 06-25-2009 at 04:29 PM.

  15. #135
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    I think the mistake being made is strictly comparing opening with Ravage to opening with Mangle. Since Ravage does not add the bleed debuff you have to compare opening with Ravage followed by Mangle to opening with Mangle. The former does a fair bit of initial damage but depletes your energy and delays the start of opening rotation. The latter does less initial damage but allows you to start right in on your rotation.

    If you don't need to use Mangle because you have a Mangle-bot then you have to compare opening with Ravage to opening with Shred.

  16. #136
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    Hey, I have a couple questions. I'm a Tauren druid on Lightninghoof, this is my tanking build:
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    1. After reading through this thread, I'm thinking of dropping Infected Wounds (not sure what I'd put them into instead though). If a boss is immune to movement impairing effects, then are they immune to infected wounds? Because I don't seem to see alot of bosses with the infected wounds debuff on them, but that could also be because of the warriors/dk's in my raid.

    2. With my tanking talents, I have 3/3 Imp. Mangle and 0/2 shredding attacks. It's therefore, much faster for me to get 5/5 combo points by using mangle than shred (34 energy vs 60). When I'm tanking XT Deconstructor and he goes into the heart phase, I go into cat, mangle, savage roar, mangle till I get 5 combo points, then rip. If I waited until I had 5 combo points from shred then the heart phase would be half over before I could rip, and I wouldn't get the full duration on my rip. Anyway, I'm wondering if you think I'm still losing dps in this situation (and if so, is it enough to justify moving around to the other side of the boss and back?).

    3. It seems like, in all this discussion, little has been brought up to talk about savage defense, and I'd like to talk about it more. First off, with primal gore, can it proc off of my lacerate crits? Does Rawr take savage defense into account?

    4. I need a way to tell whether an item that drops is better than what I'm currently wearing(ie, Furnace stone vs Defender's code). While I think everyone would agree that both agility, stamina, and armor are all very important... which one should one stack/gem for, and when? Please take savage defense into account here as well. I'm not going to be happy with a quick answer that just says that one is better than the other, explain why, and I'd like to know how much agility is worth 1 pt of stamina. Discuss how different encounters would encourage different routes. Also, if we get a certain amount of one stat, does going for more of that stat then become more valuable or less compared to others? I've tried to get my answers on Rawr, but I just haven't used it enough to know when it's reliable, and when it isn't.
    Last edited by anamiac; 07-01-2009 at 03:38 PM. Reason: realized why my armor was off in Rawr

  17. #137
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    2
    Okay I have to jump in on the feral DPS discussion my talent build is

    here

    Please be advised that my armory hasnt been updated in over a week I don't know why but the gear/enchants are not accurate and I don't believe my talents changed at all but my other spec got switched to tanking because I never healed and kept having to tank with a non optimal tank spec.

    Here are my thoughts about talents that are in question

    Feral Swiftness/Feral Aggression
    I know this one is often skipped by more points into Feral Aggression but I tend to only ever use Ferocious bite if I go on an insane crit spree and have a rediculous number of combo points or if Berserk is active.

    ((Be advised these types of crit sprees where you have this many extra combo points are usually where you need to hit Cower due to your Threat going through the roof soo I usually wind up not using a Ferocious Bite even if it's available in these situations as a dead kitty does considerably less DPS))

    Secondly this talent has saved my ass more often than I care to count. I know we all like to be idealistic and think you won't need it but -everyone- makes mistakes. You find yourself in the wrong place and being able to get to the right place faster helps.

    Sometimes even small changes in distance that don't require a dash, that fraction of a second between getting back in front of Auriaya before a blast etc. Flame away but these points would go into Feral Aggression and I don't really see the need for it.

    Survival Instincts

    I didn't have this talent for the longest time but when it dawned on me that I'm not crittable in my DPS spec because of Survival of the Fittest I realized that I was able to tank in emergencies. Buy a little bit of time for a tank to get a battle rez or even hold a boss for an extended time when a tank dies. Basically shit happens even on bosses that you have on farm and being able to help save it is worth losing a talent point that doesn't get used often.

    Feral Charge

    This one I've always had because it allows for quick repositioning, yes it costs energy I'm willing to deal with that. On fights that require a lot of movement the relatively shorter cooldown on this makes it great for moving back and forth between positions when dash is on cooldown. Plus the fact that it generates close to no threat.

    Improved Mangle/Shredding Attacks/Omen of Clarity/Ferocity

    When talking feral DPS any talent that allows you to use less energy in your rotation, and thus allows you to get more abilities in is mandatory. These get grouped together because they serve the same purpose. Expend less energy, use more attacks, do more dps. 6 energy doesnt seem like a lot for mangle but on a long fight think of how many extra shreds that adds up to.

    Survival of the Fittest/Improved Mark of the Wild

    Granted these scale according to gear level, the better geared you are the more of a benefit you'll garner from them, but these are still valuable talents that improving the stats on everything. That new weapon? Add 6% agility. It adds up to quite a lot of crit rating, and attack power and should never be skipped.

    Master Shapeshifter

    Okay this requires 3 points into Natural Shapeshifter but where else are you going to put the points?

    -First refer to above about Feral Swiftness to see my thoughts on Feral Aggression.
    -Infected wounds is useless in PvE, it gets overriden constantly.
    -Primal Tenacity is useless since you can't shapeshift out of cat and back in to refresh your energy anymore.
    -Nuturing Instincts? No.
    -Tanking talents eh.
    -Genesis doesn't work on bleeds anymore.

    And besides 4% crit is nothing to sneeze at anyway.

    Basically certain things like Feral Aggression can give you a slight increase in overall DPS on a dummy during simulations but in a realtime raid it's useless. The situation is fluid you don't always get that perfect rotation, you hit a wrong key so you miss an opportunity to use a bite. You accidentally use a clearcast on a rake because it procced right when you were hitting the button. The extra swipe damage helps for an oh shit aoe moment. Pounce and speed increases help you reduce downtime inbetween targets in a movement heavy encounter. They're all little things but they add up to a lot in a raid situation where many times it's the overlooked details that can make a big difference.

    Side Note on Ferocious Bite and Feral Aggression

    There is in theory another rotation which allows you to incorporate a 5 combo point Bite into your regular rotation which would make 5/5 Feral Aggression builds more viable, but using it reliably in a raid situation is not often realistic in my experience due to previous statements about fluidity of raids.

    The premise is as follows:

    1)2 point savage roar
    2)5 point rip
    3)5 point savage roar
    4)5 point rip
    5)5 point bite

    6)2 point roar
    7)5 point rip
    8)5 point savage roar
    9)5 point rip
    10)5 point bite

    -repeat bolded section

    The theory this rotation works off of is that the shred glyph extends the time on rip. And the long duration on savage roar especially with 4 set tier 8 bonus often results in wasted time on your savage roar that so that it is refreshed at a high time left. Mixing in a bite followed by a short duration roar allows for a more effective usage of abilities with less redundancy. IE not using 25 energy on a roar when there are still 15+ seconds left.

    The key to this is the realization that a 2 point roar or a 3 point roar with the extra point from crits invariably mixed in is long enough to refresh the rip and then put up a new full roar in most situations.

  18. #138
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    2
    Seperate reply for tanking questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by anamiac
    1. After reading through this thread, I'm thinking of dropping Infected Wounds (not sure what I'd put them into instead though). If a boss is immune to movement impairing effects, then are they immune to infected wounds? Because I don't seem to see alot of bosses with the infected wounds debuff on them, but that could also be because of the warriors/dk's in my raid.
    The problem with Infected wounds is assuming that the warriors and DK's dont have maxed out Icy Touch and Thunderclap that will override a fully stacked Infected Wounds. In order for Infected wounds to stack to full you need to tell them that they're not allowed to use Icy Touch until you have Infected Wounds stack and this frankly just won't happen.

    The way the game treats abilities like Infected Wounds that have two affects like this that has a movement and attack speed debuff is each of the debuffs hit seperately. If you are to hit a boss thats immune to movement debuffs with scrolling combat text you will see "Immune" but if it is immune to both you will see "Immune [2 hits]."

    Basically if it's immune to movement impairment debuffs then you can still slow it's attack speed with this talent but overall it's a waste of talent points as it will get overriden constantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by anamiac
    2. With my tanking talents, I have 3/3 Imp. Mangle and 0/2 shredding attacks. It's therefore, much faster for me to get 5/5 combo points by using mangle than shred (34 energy vs 60). When I'm tanking XT Deconstructor and he goes into the heart phase, I go into cat, mangle, savage roar, mangle till I get 5 combo points, then rip. If I waited until I had 5 combo points from shred then the heart phase would be half over before I could rip, and I wouldn't get the full duration on my rip. Anyway, I'm wondering if you think I'm still losing dps in this situation (and if so, is it enough to justify moving around to the other side of the boss and back?).
    Okay as a tank shredding attacks isn't really that big of a deal, rage is not a problem for a bear. If you're low on rage don't hit maul next autoattack and you just gained a lot of it back especially if you critical. But the downside is your shred costs a lot to use.

    The basic answer is during the first half to even 75% of the heart phase it is safe to be behind XT as he's immobile. You should still use shred try not to button mash because if you get a clearcast it is MUCH better spent on a shred than a mangle. So you're safe to move around the boss and use clearcasts on shreds but shred costs way too much energy without shredding attacks to use without a clearcast.

    Quote Originally Posted by anamiac
    3. It seems like, in all this discussion, little has been brought up to talk about savage defense, and I'd like to talk about it more. First off, with primal gore, can it proc off of my lacerate crits? Does Rawr take savage defense into account?
    Savage Defense is great, and I like the way it's set up by scaling on your attack power, this adds up to basically free mitigation in the form of minibubbles. Almost like a bear's block ability but with your crit rating from agility you'll have this absorbing some damage from almost every incoming hit unless the boss hits exceedingly fast.

    From my experience and the fact that the bear does an animation when Savage Defense procs ((which is going to be removed in 3.2)) I would say that yes it can proc on lacerate crits. It seems to be any crit sets it off without any cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by anamiac
    4. I need a way to tell whether an item that drops is better than what I'm currently wearing(ie, Furnace stone vs Defender's code). While I think everyone would agree that both agility, stamina, and armor are all very important... which one should one stack/gem for, and when? Please take savage defense into account here as well. I'm not going to be happy with a quick answer that just says that one is better than the other, explain why, and I'd like to know how much agility is worth 1 pt of stamina. Discuss how different encounters would encourage different routes. Also, if we get a certain amount of one stat, does going for more of that stat then become more valuable or less compared to others? I've tried to get my answers on Rawr, but I just haven't used it enough to know when it's reliable, and when it isn't.
    I dont pretend to know the math well enough to answer this one but there are a number of places where you can find different gear rating scales ie agility = X points, stamina = Y, crit = Z. But these all rate them differently so it comes down to their own interpretation or their own math and who do you trust with the priority.

    Often overlooked in the stat discussion for a feral tank are other secondary stats, given two items with similar agility and stamina the difference can be if it has crit/haste/hit/expertise/attack power.

    If you watch tankspot videos you'll see that Ciderhelm rarely misses or gets parried/dodged, and if you look at his armory you'll see he actually has some expertise gemmed to put him over the cap. A lot of people fail to realize that a miss/dodge/parry is 0 threat and wasted rage/mana/runes

  19. #139
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    47
    The specs posted in this guide are hideous, and here's why:

    First off, berserk. While it's a critical dps talent, it's usefulness in tanking should not be overlooked. Having mangle hit three targets at once is great for multi-mob tanking (Think: freya trash), Having its cooldown removed is great for a threat burst, and being able to break a fear is a pretty nice bonus. I remember an auriaya kill where she was at 10%, our dps warrior lagged out in a void zone and I used berserk to break her fear and interrupt her cast, preventing a wipe. For that fight, we put the tremor totem in the healer group.

    Second, imp demo roar is critical for tanking heavy-hitting bosses, like General Vezax. I rotate personal cooldowns in conjunction with paladin Bubble/HoS to tank through surges (we have enough paladins in our guild that having five in a raid is easy to do), and without imp demo roar, my survivability would go down a lot on that fight. Others I can think of are thorim when his stacks start getting high, Sarth+3 while shadron and vesperon are both active (he doesn't hit that hard to begin with, but with flame breath leaving a tank at 10-20% health, a quick melee swing from sarth could be deadly) Phase three Yogg if you're the fresh guardian tank, and I'm sure there's others as well.
    edit: steelbreaker.

    Third, shredding attacks is 100% a dps talent, and brutal impact is 100% pvp. If your mages can't counterspell, your rogues can't kick, DKs can't mind freeze, etc, there's something wrong.

    Fourth, Imp. MotW is a free 2% stat increase.

    Fifth, intensity is decent, but there are much better ways to spend those points, especially considering the 3.2 changes to enrage.

    Sixth, while I agree that primal gore is a key talent, I find it a lot more useful for threat than proccing SD. I have a 49% crit chance raid buffed, so I tend to have a pretty high uptime on SD to begin with. I can see, however, that it would be very useful for starting ferals- but then, their AP isn't very high, so SD wouldn't absorb much to begin with.

    I'm sure I could pick apart more talents, but those are the biggest things I see that should be fixed with the specs listed in this guide. Here is the spec I use for tanking, to compare:

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    We don't have any prot warriors in the guild, so I have infected wounds for the swing speed debuff. If I didn't need it, I would probably put two points in shredding attacks and one in KotJ to improve my dps on phase two mimiron.



    Moving on to your dps builds, again, you completely missed berserk and imp motw, and Survival instincts is almost useless in a pve cat build, as you've got healthstones, potions, and the ability to heal yourself.

    The current cookie-cutter build, which I've found very effective, is as follows:

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft



    As for as glyphs go, you're spot on about the dps glyphs, and I would argue with SI being better than Maul, but that's more a matter of personal preference. I already reach 60k HP with SI up in a 25-man setting, I don't think the extra health is going to provide that much more of a benifit.


    One final thing- a macro suggestion:
    /cast [stance:1] !Dire Bear Form
    /cast [stance:2] !Aquatic Form
    /cast [stance:3] !Cat Form
    /cast [Stance:4] !Travel Form


    This macro will shift you out of, and back into, whatever form you're using. It's the infamous "Powershifting" macro- clears any movement speed debuff, snare, root, all without sacrificing survivability by doing it manually.

    Anyway, that's my two cents.
    Last edited by Lachesis; 08-09-2009 at 03:35 PM.

  20. #140
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,897
    Someone fails to understand that those specs were made BEFORE imp motw provided the stat bonus and BEFORE primal gore was even a talent. Because of that instead of having a point in berserk and none in primal gore it puts it in the lower talent in the tree because of the way wowhead reads specs.

    also had you clicked the link above the specs you would see that all your comments are completely void.

    demo shouts are now handled by a paladin. If your ret paladin does not have it tell him to go respec.

    I do not have intensity in any of my specs. except this one Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft which again was made long before primal gore was even in the game and before imp mark provided the stat bonus.

    As for the cat specs aagain THEY WERE MADE BEFORE THOSE TALENTS EXISTED.

    So my 2 cents to your 2 cents is you need to read before posting and yes I should remove the old builds but I did not think anyone would actually read them seeing as how the new ones are posted right above them

    Maul is terrible. The only 3 glyphs a bear should use anymore is growl SI and frenzied regen. When you have 699 HP left on algalon because your healer got sucked in and hit last stand and jump to 30K you will understand.



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