this has been my bible, lol
since every "tank" cape, ring, and some 2-H weps we might use have strength, what does Str work out to in feral form? 2AP?
Just kind of curious on peoples' thoughts on King of the Jungle + 4piece bonus. Looking at Darksend's math on how little dmg KotJ adds(less than 1% even if your hitting enrage at exactly the 60 cd mark), it still seems like it would help with a small threat boost at the very start of a boss encounter.
Strength – provides attack power
1 Str = 2.37864 AP (2.616504 AP) (Cat)
1 Str = 2.1624 AP (2.37864 AP) (Bear)
1 Str = 2.292144 AP (2.5213584 AP) (Bear with PotP)
Agility – Main tanking avoidance stat. We are in love with you.
1 Agi = 1.18932 AP (1.308252 AP) (Cat only)
1 Agi = 0.0129744% (0.01427184%) Crit
1 Agi = 0.0225641% (0.0248206%) Dodge
1 Agi = 2.1624 (2.37864) Armor
77.075 (70.068) Agi = 1% Crit
44.318 (40.289)Agi = 1% Dodge
Stamina – Provides health, a major tanking stat.
1 Sta = 10.812 (11.8932) Health (Cat)
1 Sta = 14.8665 (16.35315) Health (Bear)
Intellect – Practically useless for tanking.
1 Int = 19.4616 (21.40776) Mana
1 Int = 0.00778464% (0.0085631%) Spell Crit
125.458 (116.780) Int = 1% Spell Crit
Strength is very undesirable stat since patch 4.0 as Agility gives same attack power to bears and goodies like crit/dodge (no longer increase Armor). General consensus is that apart from stamina Agi is the main both defensive and offensive stat for bears, followed by crit (defensive value of crit is more Savage Defense uptime)
So with new mechanics, you are just fine tanking with "dps" items with agility and avoid any "tank" cape, ring and weap. Some dodge rating can be added via reforging
I will not run any longer.... I will face my darkness.... I will have my revenge....
Hey there. I recently returned to WoW to prepare myself for Cata, and found myself losing every instance run. Why? Cause with Swipe practically removed i have no aoe and it's really hard to keep more than 4 mobs on me at same time.
Can anyone post new tread regarding new Cataclysm Feral tank combat mechanics or give some advice? Anything would be helpful for this is madness.
We all have same problem mate, guess we got to wait for our 2nd AoE threat, Trash, till lvl83 while other tanks got 2 of them already. Its on the same CD as swipe so there can be sort of rotation of those, while single targeting stuff.
For now I recommed glyphing Maul and using Berserk/Mangle on when you can. You will have hard time with triggerhappy kiddos overgered from running heroics 24/7
I will not run any longer.... I will face my darkness.... I will have my revenge....
In WotLK, the talent tree was set up in such a way that you really had to choose one or the other, but I ran as a hybrid through all of TBC, and it's looking like it might be possible again with the new talent tree. I'd like to get some more input.
Here's a sample talent build that has both crucial cat and bear talents:
There is maneuverability here too. You could add a point to BitW and remove one from Carnage. I'm still toying around with whether I even want Pulverize or not. I'm not having any threat issues so far without it and Savage Defense is always up right after it's knocked off anyhow. Sure, it has its benefits, but it looks like it might have been added more to fill in our rotation than anything else due to all the added CDs. Lacerate is the only move not on a CD, so they add pulverize to clear those stacks so you aren't just refreshing lacerate each application. Kinda lame, in my opinion.
You could potentially not take Master Shapeshifter, which would allow you to fill either BitW or Carnage, plus take either a reduced stun build with Brutal Impact or fill Primal Madness. While Master Shapeshifter is down to 3 points from 5, you still have to completely waste two points (natural shapeshifter prereq) to obtain it. Can they be better spent?
Is anyone else toying around with hybrid builds? What have you found thus far?
Oh, and a brief response to the comment about lack of aoe threat until thrash...the new content was also designed with the intent of signifying a return to crowd-control. Theoretically, you shouldn't be aoe tanking near as much. When you're dealing with pulls of 5 and 6 where 3-4 should be CCed, you've got lots of options for getting aggro on the remaining 2-3. Feral charge/FFF one, switch targets, mangle a second, then switch and taunt another. Then once all three are rounded up, swipe, maul, etc. Oh, and we're druids so there's always a personal favorite of mine...cast some hots on yourself and open with moonfire (remember when there was no feral faerie fire???) before you go into the above pull. Now you've got some healer aggro as well, plus bought the healer a few seconds before they start generating aggro themselves.
Last edited by lucero; 12-14-2010 at 08:00 AM. Reason: added the parenthetical comment about FFF
True CC is needed for trash, but there is now a lot more boss fights that have a ton of adds that tanks need to pickup. The fact that most the time when tanking I am out of rage so can't swipe or the swipe and thrash are on a cooldown leaves our only AoE is our Taunt that has a 1 minute cooldown. With all the DPS and everyone having to move a lot when adds are out makes getting aggro on the 10-15 adds a pain for melee tanks.
I am also stunned they took away bash as a method of interrupt case in point Baron Ashbury in H SFK now our Skull Bash 1 minute cooldown is not up enough for us to a reliable interrupt. I had planned for my Skull bash scheduled for Asphixiate, but it is not up for each one only every other.
And if doing it randomly you may not have enough interrupts to even do the boss at all.
With the cooldowns on Swipe and Thrash I am having issues keeping threat off the healer ( Hall of Origination and last boss in Throne of Tides examples) when tanking a big group of 5-8 while kiting, and especially Pally healers.
I have noticed a severe lack of Cata Druid love on the forums so far, so I figured I would post at least a spec and some "this is what I'm doing" tips.
First, here is a little background:
- Here is my armory profile: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ndicano/simple. Check that if you would like to see my current tank spec and gear.
- At the time of this post, no, I am not 85
- No, my gear is not tweaked out. I'm tanking in greens and a few blues, nothing special.
- I am not claiming to be super leet or that I know everything. This is just what I am doing currently and it has worked for me.
- If you are super leet, this is probably not for you since you have already figured this out in your infinite awesomeness.
- I have been instancing since 83 with guildies who have already hit 85 and I have no issues with keeping aggro/threat. Again, this is what works for me. If you are reading this, you probably are seeking help and it can't hurt to try this. If it doesn't work for you, my apologies, at least you gave it a try.
Things I'm a little iffy on:
- Pulverize: No longer iffy. This is required for tanking any Cata heroics as bear.
- I will probably be changing to this spec soon since I find I don't shift out a lot and Brutal Impact feels more right considering the need for interrupts in Cata instances: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZdrGf...zMcz:0rqzwZMmz
- Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration: I can see where it may be a lot more useful later. In my current situation, I find that if I am low enough on health to need FR, the healer is low on mana and +30% of 0 is no help at all.
Questions I've heard (from other bears):
Q: How am I supposed to hold multi-mob aggro now?
A: First off, mark your targets, at LEAST mark the one you want people killing. Assign the Skull mark to a button so that you can easily switch it when your current Skull dies. I am using the following rotation for AoE aggro on trash. Thrash > Swipe > Demo Shout > Mangle (on Skull) > Fill in the the cooldown gaps with tab > Lacerate (or Mangle if you have a free one up). Keep thrash up as often as possible. Swipe seems to be less important since Blizz nerfed the damage. Maul if you need something to dump rage, but I tend to use it sparingly. Try and get at least one Lacerate stack on as many mobs as you can. I've noticed that, on groups of 3 or more, I almost always have a free Mangle from Berserk.
Q: How do I hold aggro on single targets?
A: I'm sorry, what? Okay...I'll explain it anyways. I generally start off with front loading as much aggro as possible. If I'm starting with no rage, I will pop out and hit Thorns before starting. Pop Enrage (if <60 rage) > Pop Barkskin (if Enrage was popped, to negate damage increase from Enrage) > Faerie Fire > Feral Charge > Maul > Mangle > Demo Roar > Lacerate x3 > Pulverize. Mangle every time it comes off cooldown (from Berserk or normally, doesn't matter), other than that, I hit whatever comes off of cooldown and refresh any debuffs that fall off. If I find I have extra rage and nothing to do with it (which is rare), I may throw in a swipe for S's and G's or refresh Demo Roar if it will fall off soon.
Q: How do I deal with casters?
A: Yeah, I know...they suck. Hopefully you have some CC that can help you out with the casters until you get the melee down. If you have to just deal with it, do whatever you can to get them away from the CC. If there is no CC, just tank all mobs on the caster and DPS the caster down first.
Q: Demoralizing Roar...really? Why?
A: Because I love my healers, that's why. Every healer I've talked to has stated that they are having issues with mana in Cata. Anything I can do to help my healer, I do to help my healer.
Q: Thrash on a single target? Huh?
A: Without Pulverize, I find that I have an extra GCD to spare here and there. It is a decent bleed and fills the slot.
Q: Why don't you use Faerie Fire in your AoE rotation?
A: Because I don't have time and there are better buttons to hit (in my opinion). I may pull my Skull target with it, but that is generally only out of convenience.
Q: Why don't you use Pulverize?
A: In the original post of this information, I said Pulverize was garbage. I was wrong (again with the "not leet" thing). Pulverize is very useful in keeping up Savage Defense. It is the equivalent of adding 9% block for a warrior or pally.
Q: I don't have Thrash yet, what do I do?
A: Cry...then level. Aside from BRC, I found I had a lot of problems tanking larger groups until I had Thrash. Now it is a cakewalk.
Q: You are a noob! You aren't doing XXXX.
A: First off, that isn't a question. Second, I figured all this out on my own. I may be missing something, it may be something huge. Third, where is your post trying to help people out? I figure that even a starting post to get discussion going is worth more than nothing. (This has been proven by the fact that I wasn't using Pulverize and I now am using it.
Q: Why did you misspell xxxx or have grammar error yyyy?
A: I am not perfect. I suppose now that Trolls can be druids too, I should expect to find a few in this thread.
Q: Why didn't you make this a new thread?
A: Because I do not have permissions to do so. If a mod would like to move this to its own thread, that would be helpful and wonderful.
- Now lvl 85. Spec reflects that
- Pulverize is necessary and not, in fact worthless or situationally useful.
Last edited by Fendi; 01-10-2011 at 10:26 AM.
Nice post Fendi,
I love pulverize of course, i am only level 70, but I have found that pulverize just makes me giggle a little inside when I use it!
@Fendi - Pulverize is a great threat increase, as you only use it when your Pulverize buff is expiring within, say, 3-4 seconds. The extra 9% crit that it grants by consuming 3 stacks of Lacerate is a great addition to the already amazing threat that Feral tanks can produce. My general use of Pulverize is usually (Single target mind you): Charge + FFF, Mangle, Pulverize (for immediate 3% crit increase), Lacerate x1, Thrash, Demo Roar, FFF (I've got mine talented once, so it stacks 2x per FFF), Lacerate 2x, Pulverize (to increase from 3% to 9%), then the usual threat rotation of Mangle on CD and proc, Thrash always on CD, Demo Roar always up, and Lacerate at 3 stacks, while maintaining the pulverize buff. I hope the Pulverize buff grows on you as it has for me.
@WastedSpace - If you take the time to review the Feral tree again, you'll notice that Brutal Impact 2/2 makes your Bash a 50 second CD, and your Skull Bash a 10 second CD, giving you your very own reliable interrupt. Skull Bash is so wonderful since Bliz kept it off the GCD.
@ Those having issues with AE Threat - Make sure to mark your targets. Generally, casters die first, since we have poor avoidance, since our only method of avoiding incoming damage is misses, dodges, and SD proc absorbs, in which Mastery increases the amount absorbed. Here's a pretty easy to maintain AE threat rotation that I have personally found to be very effective. Thrash and Swipe are both on a 6 second CD, and Mangle is on a 8 second CD. What does this mean to you? Start the pull by initiating with Feral Charge, along with a FFF in transit. Follow this up with a Thrash, as it generates more threat than Swipe, and it also leaves a bleed on all the targets it hits. Getting the bleed on the targets gives threat faster. Swipe is next, followed with a Mangle on the main target. If your DPS are smart and are focusing the kill target, then you would Lacerate once. Now your Thrash is coming off CD, so hit that next. Follow up with a Swipe and a Mangle, then switch to the next kill target.
This allows you to build threat on all the targets around you, while maintaining managable threat on the main kill target.
If you are running into the issue of breaking CCs while maintaining this AE threat rotation, let your CCers initiate the combat by using their CCs, and you grabbing immediate attention, NOT THREAT, on the rest of the active targets with a FFF. DO NOT CHARGE. You want to pull the mobile targets away from your CCd targets. This allows your CCs to stay immobilized, and the active ones to be subject to the above threat rotations.
Adjust these to your playstyle, and you won't have issues holding AE threat. For those who are not 83 yet, and actively tanking instances, just remember to tab target things, which allows you to generate AE threat, just the hard way.
Last edited by Kilikus; 12-30-2010 at 05:36 PM.
Thanks for the advice Kilikus. My problem with Pulverize is partially talent points. Given others that I feel are more useful, I can't find a point to drop late enough in the tree to pick it up. Given that Pulv feels situationally useful (boss fights) and I don't have any problem with boss encounter threat, I can't justify taking the point from another talent and putting it in Pulv.
I'm not shooting it down for you, others, or even myself, that is just my perspective. I would also be curious to see the talents/glyphs you are using, if you don't mind posting them.
It's more than just threat, that 9% has a significant effect on Savage Defense uptime.Given that Pulv feels situationally useful (boss fights) and I don't have any problem with boss encounter threat, I can't justify taking the point from another talent and putting it in Pulv.
In fact, I'd really say that threat is the least of the concerns with Pulverize. Practically an afterthought.
Given equivalently geared characters, bears should have more actual avoidance than other tanks. The gap is actually quite significant. It has been a common misconception since TBC that because Bears don't have parry we must have less avoidance for some reason.Generally, casters die first, since we have poor avoidance, since our only method of avoiding incoming damage is misses, dodges, and SD proc absorbs,
I assume you were referring to avoidance from magical damage in your comment, but I figured I'd clarify that one tidbit that always irks me, and the terminology used might confuse people.
Last edited by Bovinity; 01-04-2011 at 05:33 PM.
Thanks Bovinity. I hadn't thought of it that way. Assuming 9% crit is a 9% increase Savage Defense uptime, that is pretty significant. I'd still be interested in seeing someone's spec including Pulv though.
Fendi has got nice post, tho i diagree with "no pulverize" part (and im adult so I can express my opinion without the "omgnoob" bit). Pulverize value is in Savage Defense uptime, unless you do heroic raids, threat is not an issue at all in Cata. I personally keep it up mostly on bosses, simply when there is time to do so. Please note the only value of Lacerate is in Berserk proc, bleed was nerfed to ground and its pretty much spammable threat move now, so ignore the bleed and apply one stack after each Pulverize to keep the proc.
As far as i have seen, skull bash talented to 10sec is mandatory and its used all the time.
I have got few advices for the AoE threat too. 1st of all, dont try AoE tanking on your tier level, mobs will tear you apart. Almost all classes have got CC now (I regulary use my own roots on pull, or Hibernate in Grim Batol) so the real art is in positioning and holding threat on 2-3 mobs without breaking CC. Thrash is high aggro move, almost twice as Lacerate application, swipe on same CD. Personally I use glyph of maul as well and have no trouble holding threat as long as targets are marked and dps doesnt pick different mob each. For nasty or even slightly more difficult mob packs burn your Berserk, its 3min cooldown so you can use it on every even pack. Its not just win aggro, but win dps as well, so the mobs go down faster.
Same deal with survival cooldowns, you got 3 + some trinket, use one whenever fighting more mobs to make sure things go smooth
I will not run any longer.... I will face my darkness.... I will have my revenge....
The numbers shift based on your current Crit percentage, hit/exp, probably even haste...but in my gear for example, the 9% Pulverize crit is something close to 7.5% increase in Savage Defense uptime.Thanks Bovinity. I hadn't thought of it that way. Assuming 9% crit is a 9% increase Savage Defense uptime, that is pretty significant. I'd still be interested in seeing someone's spec including Pulv though.
As for the spec, I believe I'm using: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0ZfMGb...kMcu:0rqzwZMmz
I would also like to add one other little nugget of wisdom. I have found Glyph of Rebirth to be very awesome in my recent travels. Yes, even as the tank. Being as how there are only 2 bear glyphs worth having (maul and faerie fire), we have an empty slot anyways. Thorns is almost always off of CD when you do your next pull, so that would be a wasted glyph. You could go with the Frenzied Regen glyph, but if your healer is out of mana, that is pretty useless and, in the current world I play in, many healers are having problems with mana. I picked the Rebirth Glyph thinking it would be used very infrequently, but I have found that, as I start on heroics, that is not the case.
So, when do I find time to Rebirth people as a tank?
Many bosses in Cata have more than one phase and there is a bit of downtime in between them. If someone bites the dust early, it can easily mean a wipe, even if it isn't the healer. Pop out of bear with Rebirth and spam your Bear button to get back as quickly as possible.
This boss has no phase and my healer is chewing gravel on the floor. What now?
Question is, can you make it without your healer? Not "Can you maybe make it?"...Can you really make it? If not, it is worth the chance to Rebirth your healer while the boss is smacking you around. Even in caster form, I have around 20% dodge. And, in most cases, I can take one hit in caster form anyhow. Wait until the boss has just hit you, then Rebirth and spam the bear button. If you are lucky (or fast), you will make it before the next swing. Sometimes, it is even worth doing this on your DPS if the bite it early enough and the DPS will be needed (ie: heroics).