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Thread: Impale vs. Cruelty comparison

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andenthal View Post
    10% of threat =/= 10% of damage

    A Shield slam that hits for 800 will do more threat than a white attack for 1000, solely because Shield Slam has innate threat attached to it.

    I think this thread is more focused on the damage part of it. The increase in threat should (in theory) be equal to the increase in damage as both Impale and Cruelty are based only off of (damage done x multipliers) and no innate numbers
    You're totally right, of course. Didn't think long enough before posting. But this got me to some experimenting with my spreadsheet: Added some dps calculations. removed the extra 15% from Devastate crit chance (it has "hard-coded" SnB), set HS percentage to 100% and base crit chance to 25%, et voilà - Impale and Cruelty provide exactly the same benefit in dps AND tps. Proves that my formulas are correct (at least those that affect Impale and Cruelty), if Maelbolgia's are, which i have no doubt about. Makes me a happy tank.

    Now the interesting part. Doing the math for a more realistic scenario with all the 15% (and other) talents turned on would be rather complicated (and i don't see Hypatia around). I'll just use the sheet for that.
    Enabling all the 15%-talents and playing around with base crit chance leads to an intersection point of only ~5%, up to ~12% with the other must-have talents and 50% Heroic Strike. That is for TPS, the DPS intersection point is a different now. But TPS is what we primarily care about as protection warriors.
    It also depends on the "rotation" used, of course, but the one i used in my sheet will likely be a very common one.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naka View Post
    Added some dps calculations. removed the extra 15% from Devastate crit chance (it has "hard-coded" SnB), set HS percentage to 100% and base crit chance to 25%, et voilà - Impale and Cruelty provide exactly the same benefit in dps AND tps.
    Yep, Mero had the same results in his spreadsheet. So far, three people have a consistent model for yellow damage (and threat) as far as Cruelty and Impale goes. However, I don't think we have the same results for white:

    Quote Originally Posted by Naka View Post
    Enabling all the 15%-talents and playing around with base crit chance leads to an intersection point of only ~5%, up to ~12% with the other must-have talents and 50% Heroic Strike. That is for TPS, the DPS intersection point is a different now.
    So, I would actually expect the interesction point for dps and for tps to be the same in this case because these two talents only effect tps from dps. Neither changes the frequency of abilities, so this is a bit surprising. The other part that isn't consistent with my model is the intersection point: A base crit of 5% crit seems low given that there should be a white damage component. I would expect 10% to be the more likely interesection point (10% + 15% from talents = 25%) and that's not even factoring in white damage.

    What is the yellow to white damage ratio in your modified spreadsheet?

  3. #23
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    Yes. You're perfectly right again. I forgot to adjust the Devastate crit chance in the Cruelty calculation, that screwed the numbers up.
    Now, if i didn't blow something again, the i-point seems to be 15-19% factoring in the other talents, depending on HS percentage.

    Please feel free to play around with the numbers yourself, I'll attach the modified sheet.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Naka; 10-11-2008 at 05:14 AM. Reason: need more sleep

  4. #24
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    Can someone please explain this to me in easy terms? From the sounds of it impale doesn't sound as great as we first thought.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyhaus View Post
    Can someone please explain this to me in easy terms? From the sounds of it impale doesn't sound as great as we first thought.
    If, raid buffed, your crit is above 25% ish, 2 points in impale is better than 5 in cruelty. 1 point in impale is almost always better than 1 point in Cruelty.

    Consider these two points when you choose your spec .
    I. Am. Warrior.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mero12513 View Post
    If, raid buffed, your crit is above 25% ish, 2 points in impale is better than 5 in cruelty. 1 point in impale is almost always better than 1 point in Cruelty.

    Consider these two points when you choose your spec .
    It seems to me that the actual cost of Impale would be 4 points (2 in T2 Arms, 2 for Impale), after getting Deflection and Imp HS. Yes, Imp HS isn't the best talent, there are certainly better. But it's no filler.

    Cruelty costs 5 points, and Impale costs 4 plus a slightly sub-par talent. The cost seems to be relatively even. I think this all comes down to the benefit of the talent.

    In a raid - that's what we all primarily spec and gear for, is it not - Our crit with HS/Dev/SS is going to be above 25%. By a lot. Once you factor in LotP, Kings, Elixirs, etc., those abilities are going to be above 30%.

    We've got a few weeks to talk about this topic until we're all 80, but to me Cruelty at best breaks even, and Impale is just simply more fun

  7. #27
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    If I missed it sorry but did anyone take into account that impale affects all abilities and cruelty just affects melee weapons so Dev/HS/White Hits so really the points your pointing into other talents such as Incite and Sword and Board would definetly take care of this just forgetting about white hits as when I tank it doesnt seem to be that big of a factor compared to SS getting an extra 10%

  8. #28
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    impale only affects crit attacks, cruelty affects all attacks that CAN crit. except maybe thunderclap.

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  9. #29
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    its a interesting debate. I guess you have to sit back and think.. is it worth it to go that deep into arms for just a bit more dmg and threat.

    Since cruelty is a top tier talent it costs 5 points.. where to get impale your looking at 12.. - 5 for deflection which we will all have.. so 7. From working with the talent for 80 you can definally get impale and have 0 points in cruelty. Thats keeping all the talents in the prot tree. I guess the other thing is could we take points out of puncture and drop the in cruelty running with 2/5 there and 2/2 impale with max HS and imp charge. This is more of a question.. basically im running into situations where i am heavly over geared for stuff yet i have no rage issues.. infact i have so much rage incoming that i spam cleave or HS. I relize that this may infact change at 80.. so take it as a grain of salt and i think someone ran some numbers and posted them on the forums here.

    Impale for me atleast i think will win out just for the fun factor of the talent.

  10. #30
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    Really enjoyed reading over this thread guys. You math types are crazzzy crazzy folk, lemme tell ya, lol, but in all seriousness, impale vs cruelty has been like a black spot on my template creating mind since the prot tree was revised in beta.

    For myself it comes down to "this" being the deciding factor:

    Prot just has way too many gosh darn good talents that I feel awful not taking them, so, since getting impale stretches my points out further than I care for; Cruelty ftw imho
    Last edited by Ashyn; 11-05-2008 at 08:17 PM.

  11. #31
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    I personally will be going 12/6/53 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
    at 80 with 3 points in cruelty, best of both worlds.
    "You must either conquer and rule or lose and serve, suffer or triumph, and be the anvil or hammer"-Goethe

  12. #32
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    Lemme ask you guys this... Why not both?

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

    obviously its an 80 talent tree so the piece of this discussion referring to leveling (which is the majorty) still has of course very valid thoughts. Just wanted to throw out there some options for people.
    "If I'm doing a fight and I need more threat... I try harder. If I'm doing a fight and I need my taunts not to miss, then I wear hit." -Veneretio

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnuss View Post
    Lemme ask you guys this... Why not both?

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

    obviously its an 80 talent tree so the piece of this discussion referring to leveling (which is the majorty) still has of course very valid thoughts. Just wanted to throw out there some options for people.
    It "really" depends on what you want to do without imo. For instance, the last 3 tiers and vitality above that of course, in the prot tree, are talents that I think mostly everyone would agree as being must-haves. The idea of say, leaving damage shield out, would probably be met with shrill flameage and murloc chuckling.

    The thing is, I look specifically at the build you have linked here and I ask myself if I want impale by giving up conc. blow, vig, and 1 one point in FR, and the answer (for me) is a resounding hell no.

    I think most people realize you can get both impale and cruelty, the question is what do I change or not take in prot to do so. I must add however, that even though I can be really rigid in my tanking specs, I do recognize that there is alot more variety now. This is a cool thing and it lets people try things outside of the box, as opposed to a standard, stamped and accepted X/X/X cookie cutter.
    Last edited by Ashyn; 11-05-2008 at 08:21 PM.

  14. #34
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    Absolutely Ashyn. The reason why i like the spec that i linked it because i never spec vigilance. that is just a talent that i dont deem to be higher necessary right now and until i do alot of tanking at 80, i cant justify it. conc blow is an ability i like alot but the increase in damage from the both of those talents could justify the loss. depending on what i would see this build to be used for i might replace my conc blow and FR and drop some dodge for example. I really havent tried this build out in anything but i absolutely see the benefit in having it. it just becomes a question of "ok am i having rage issues? are things escaping me without being able to stop them? is dps pulling aggro?". Once i see the answers to those questions i can adjust my spec according.
    "If I'm doing a fight and I need more threat... I try harder. If I'm doing a fight and I need my taunts not to miss, then I wear hit." -Veneretio

  15. #35
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    I hear you Magnuss. I'd like to reinforce my point that this is something really cool; the much added flexability that seems to be present for tankers now. As you pointed out, it may be a different scenario when 80 is reached/heroics/raiding etc, but I personally hope the wiggle room for personal choice and style stays put.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenicks View Post
    It seems to me that the actual cost of Impale would be 4 points (2 in T2 Arms, 2 for Impale), after getting Deflection and Imp HS.

    Cruelty costs 5 points, and Impale costs 4 plus a slightly sub-par talent.
    The original math showed that the 2 points in Impale were greater than the 5 points in Cruelty *without considering the number of points in each ability*.

    It really comes down to how many Prot talents you consider as must-haves.

    After what I consider the vital prot talents, I will have enough to go for 2 Impale and 2 Cruelty, because this is better than 5 Cruelty.

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

    Personally I will consider Concussion Blow, Vigilance and 3/3 Focused Rage as necessities. However, Puncture not so much.. I am finding that Devastate is being used less often than HS and 3/3 Imp HS will actually save me more rage. (I know that HS is more of a rage dump than part of the ideal rotation, but to be completely honest we're not really getting rage starved at the moment - especially thanks to Sanctuary)

  17. #37
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    Indeed...many people are beginning to find that Puncture and Shield Specialization are no longer necessities. Several people have linked builds similar to what I'm planning on, which is: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

  18. #38
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    thats kinda of the build i was looking at drunker.. i like vigilance as a talent so i do think that will stay in.. + conc shot is awsome burst threat now and its just another stun we have.

    Iv heard some people dropping points out of shield spec as well, hard to say till i start to raid at 80 and can look at numbers.. but if the numbers are marginal at best then dropping 3 out of there and tossing them in cruelty is definally something that should be looked at.

  19. #39
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    This has been smashed into the ground.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    problem solved.
    November 23, 2004 8:27:03 AM - Glomgore 10+ Years of tanking? Priceless

  20. #40
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    Well crap I thought I'd do the math on this and post it this morning. Looks like I was a tad too late.

    The number's I got were as follows.

    (crit+.15)*(1.2)=(1.05+crit)(1+crit)
    (1.2)(crit+.15)(crit+1)=(1.05+crit)
    (crit^2+1.15crit+.15)(1.2)=1.05+crit
    (crit^2+.316crit-.725)=0


    Crit stands for the crit percentage of the character, expressed as a decimal. The reason there's a +.15 in there is because prot warriors have about 15% crit on most major ability (excludes revenge, white damage).

    This equation is set up as the % increase in TPS you get from each talent, and then set equal to each other. The thought process was as follows: As you crit% increases, cruelty's % increase in damage gets worse. For example if yuo have 0 crit, you would gain 5% damage. If you had 95% crit, you would only increase your damage by ~2.5% by taking cruelty.

    Impale on the other hand gets better the more often you crit, so the to talents should have an intersection point.

    I set that up, solved the equation into the form of a quadratic and then got that the value of crit in the quadratic to be .055. Meaning that it takes about 5.5% crit (as expressed in the player screen) to make impale better.

    HOWEVER
    Revenge and white damage don't benefit from +15% crit in talents, therefore cruelty will remain stronger for longer. Expect 7-10% crit to actually be the breakeven point, which is about what everyone has gotten. Since my char's base crit in full tank gear looks like it's 6%, Impale will always be better provided you have either a feral druid or a fury warrior in the raid. Remember your always getting +agi too.
    Last edited by TylBronto; 11-07-2008 at 06:52 AM.

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