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Thread: WOTLK spec

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by talisfears View Post
    keep in mind that meters like that will make heroic strike look a little better than it is. Heroic strike takes over a white swing that would have caused some threat without being heroic
    I'm not following you here,

    Heroic Strike

    .......blah blah blah..........and causes a High amount of threat.

    and with the heroic strike glyph which he is using he is getting threat from the rage gained.

    Look at the rage gain from that too:

    Shield Specialization: 122 rage

    Blessing of Sanctuary: 1540 rage OMG!!!!!

    Bloodrage: 4 Rage

    Glyph of Heroic Strike: 450 rage

    Just from 4 rage from bloodrage means he only used it at the start of the pull because he obviously was never rage starved with that amount of rage gain from those sources.
    Last edited by Mefear; 10-06-2008 at 07:37 AM. Reason: typo

  2. #22
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    Would seem like anything that benefits devastate is not really needed from the data on that patchwerk kill to me like puncture so yay 3 points everyone can put somewhere else.

  3. #23
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    Source: talisfears
    keep in mind that meters like that will make heroic strike look a little better than it is. Heroic strike takes over a white swing that would have caused some threat without being heroic


    He is saying that the amount of threat caused by Heroic strike was not all caused by heroic strike. Threat caused by devastate or revenge is entirely caused by those abilities because had you not used them, threat done would have been 0.

    Using heroic strike is simply an INCREASE in the damage of your next swing. Not casting heroic strike would NOT have caused 0 threat. So to effectively measure its value one would have to account for threat that would have been done had they simply let the next attack hit. The difference between threat w/ heroic strike and threat w/ auto attack is the actual threat benefit of HS.

  4. #24
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    I think you gotta get the imp spell reflect over imp revenge. I don't think losing 20% on revenges is going to keep you from holding threat with all of our new mechanics--but 4% misses on spells might keep you alive... Also, I saw some people not picking up incite...??? Can someone clue me in to the reasoning behind this?

    Reflect, no revenge; incite, no puncture...

  5. #25
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    I'd rather have revenge than reflect, as powerful as 4% higher chance to resist/miss whatever it was is, I think the 20% on revenge is gonna be huge, revenge is gonna be one of our biggest damage dealers, and the stun will help you with survivability more than the spell resist.

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  6. #26
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    Puncture looks like it wont even be close to worth it now since 6 Shockwaves are more threat than 20 devastates.

  7. #27
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    but shockwaves are on a cd, and devastates proc shield slams. Devastates still rock.

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by talisfears View Post

    I'm not sure why you mentioned focused rage as it's present in all my builds. It's many many times more valuable than puncture, too.
    Hm. I'm not sure why I did also. Must of been high, drunk, sleep deprived, or any combination of the three. Sorry about that.

  9. #29
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    with the use of glyphs like Revenge and Heroic strike, i would agree that puncture ( in theory) isnt needed. The 3 rage saved is not a necessary savings considering we get a free heroic strike after using revenge and when we crit with heroic strike, which should be often, we gain 10 rage. it seems that the pints would be better suited in a differnt location. My thinking would be vigilance, taking 10% of the highest dps's threat and putting it on you would do alot towards holding aggro. and placing the other 2 points in spell reflect would seem to make sense. although i havent played the beta, the fact that it defelcts off two closest allies tells me some serious AoE damage is in the future. those are just my thoughts on that. on another note, impale sounds awesome as far as adding dps to our class. but it seems again like 3 points are wasted in imp HS since we have the revenge glyph. is impale woth those 3 wasted points? is imp demo shot worth mentioning for the mitigation? you guys are the pros with the numbers and will probably prove me wrong on many levels i just thought i'd add my 2 cents lol

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mefear View Post
    Puncture looks like it wont even be close to worth it now since 6 Shockwaves are more threat than 20 devastates.
    We already discussed this before but here we go again.

    6 shockwaves vs 20 devastates

    6 shockwaves = 120 seconds = 2 min ( 20 sec cooldown x 6)

    20 devastates = 40 seconds = (2 sec global cooldown x 20)

    With 20 devastates you on average would proc 3 Sword and board procs ( 20 x 15%) These are rage free Rage boosts

    And useing your own link provided WOW Meter Online - More logs!!!!!!

    Average Shockwave

    2928 * 6 = 17568

    Average Dev

    816 * 20 = 16320

    Now add in 3 SS

    2395 * 3 = 7185 + 16320 = 23505 Damage done

    17568 < 23505

    So more damage from devastates, Less time to apply them.

    Note things not taken into account for this post, the 15% extra crit you get from devastate and shield slam that would further out dps shockwave

  11. #31
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    What I'm trying to point out is that hitting shockwave everytime it is up will be better than hitting devastate

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brackin View Post
    with the use of glyphs like Revenge and Heroic strike, i would agree that puncture ( in theory) isnt needed. The 3 rage saved is not a necessary savings considering we get a free heroic strike after using revenge and when we crit with heroic strike, which should be often, we gain 10 rage. it seems that the pints would be better suited in a differnt location. My thinking would be vigilance, taking 10% of the highest dps's threat and putting it on you would do alot towards holding aggro. and placing the other 2 points in spell reflect would seem to make sense. although i havent played the beta, the fact that it defelcts off two closest allies tells me some serious AoE damage is in the future. those are just my thoughts on that. on another note, impale sounds awesome as far as adding dps to our class. but it seems again like 3 points are wasted in imp HS since we have the revenge glyph. is impale woth those 3 wasted points? is imp demo shot worth mentioning for the mitigation? you guys are the pros with the numbers and will probably prove me wrong on many levels i just thought i'd add my 2 cents lol
    I have yet to talk to a serious MT that will be picking up the heroic strike Glyph. Most i have talked to are picking up the SS glyph, Revenge/Sunder/Devastate glyph and the Thunderclap one.

    And a small annoyance, Heroic strike DOES NOT generate rage. The white attack you would have gained rage from attacking with will not cause any rage gen when you turn it into a heroic strike. So with the Revenge Glyph, your still losing potential rage by using heroic strike instead of allowing for an auto attack. On live right now i gain 10-20 rage from a auto attack. Even with both glyphs and assuming i crit, at BEST i am canceling out the rage loss i encountered by using the ability. So 2 glyphs to turn a negative rage move into one that at best will make its negative effect close to Zero. this compared to the rage reduce talents.

    Consider the current rotation for Tanking

    SS Rev Dev Dev, 6 second rotation that means in a 1 min period 10 rotations. So 3 rage saved per dev 6 saved per rotation, 60 saved per min. Thats almost 5 Heroic strikes worth of rage every min.

    Now true, with a perfect rotation you would do 10 heroic strikes with no rage cost, with a 30% crit chance that means 3 of the ten would give 10 rage.

    So You now have 60 saved rage vs 30 rage gained - 100 rage not gained from auto attacks. Last time i checked + 60 was better than -70

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mefear View Post
    What I'm trying to point out is that hitting shockwave everytime it is up will be better than hitting devastate
    Yes, a Shockwave would be a good replacement for a devastate in a priory rotation when it is off cool down, but it does have a cool down. Devastate in the same time frame will always out threat shockwave.

    From the way your phrasing it, just because it causes more threat it should be your main use ability. Using that logic, I should spec for MS because its higher threat than devastate. A quick burst of threat is sometimes better than more threat over time, but not always

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    On live right now i gain 10-20 rage from a auto attack.
    What are you hitting to gain 10-20 rage per swing, im covered in sunwell gear generating 5 per auto attack hitting isle mobs right now. With a S4 2her I'm getting 15 rage per hit so I think your math is off or something.
    Last edited by Mefear; 10-07-2008 at 01:38 AM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mefear View Post
    What are you hitting to gain 10-20 rage per swing, im covered in sunwell gear generating 5 per auto attack hitting isle mobs right now. With a S4 2her I'm getting 15 rage per hit so I think your math is off or something.
    I put on my current dps gear ( Mix of ZA/Kara epics ) And went to the isle and hit arcane destroyers. Not the best testing method but it was where i was at

    and Since we were useing your numbers, with 5 rage gained from an auto attack, your still looking at 60 rage saved vs +30 rage - 50 (5 rage for each one of the 10 auto attacks instead of the 10 in the original post. +60 is still better than -20.

    For Your two glyphs to beat out base Prot talents you would need 32 rage per heroic strike crit.
    Last edited by Lizana; 10-07-2008 at 01:51 AM. Reason: added

  16. #36
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    yeah as of now puncture is needed with your math but I'm not even getting close to doing the SS>Rev>Devx2 in 3.0 if a S&B procs off a Revenge you'd only have enough time to get 1 devastate in.

    Technically in 3.0 there is no set rotation like we have now. The most we can do is have priorities of our abilities which would be the exact same as they are now. So there can really be no set math on how a rotation will go with like what you are doing with the math above.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mefear View Post
    yeah as of now puncture is needed with your math but I'm not even getting close to doing the SS>Rev>Devx2 in 3.0 if a S&B procs off a Revenge you'd only have enough time to get 1 devastate in.

    Technically in 3.0 there is no set rotation like we have now. The most we can do is have priorities of our abilities which would be the exact same as they are now. So there can really be no set math on how a rotation will go with like what you are doing with the math above.
    Okay, even at 1 Devastate

    Instead of 60 rage saved its 30 rage. 30 rage saved is still better than -20 rage. Heck Lets say that you only do 1 devastate every other 6 seconds, its now 15 rage saved off just the Devastates, not counting the rage saved from revenge and regular shield slams, but even with 1 devastate every 12 seconds, its still 15 rage saved vs -20 rage.

    Even if you never Devastate, its still rage saved off revenge and SS, that were not counting vs -20 rage gen. Any way you look at it, two major glyphs are not beating out the talent

  18. #38
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    Look at the Meter link, WOW Meter Online - More logs!!!!!!

    450 Rage gained from Glyph of Heroic Strike

    21 glyph of revenge procs


    39 total Devastate during a 3 minute 6 second fight now obviously if he were specced into it he saved 117 rage. So if he didn't have those glyphs he would have used if he were 0/3 Imp heroic strike 252 rage and if he had 3/3 Imp HS he used 189 rage. Isn't that more rage saved?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mefear View Post
    Look at the Meter link, WOW Meter Online - More logs!!!!!!

    450 Rage gained from Glyph of Heroic Strike

    21 glyph of revenge procs


    39 total Devastate during a 3 minute 6 second fight now obviously if he were specced into it he saved 117 rage. So if he didn't have those glyphs he would have used if he were 0/3 Imp heroic strike 252 rage and if he had 3/3 Imp HS he used 189 rage. Isn't that more rage saved?
    You lose rage rage everytime you Heroic strike due to the fact that heroic strike generates Zero rage. 39 devastates also mean 6 free shield slams. You have to take that into account as well. Heroic strike is a rage dump. The glyph is of use to a dps warrior not a tanking warrior. Devastate should always be used before heroic strike, So why not improve your only spammable attack?

    Now if your sitting there at 40-50 rage, by all means que up a heroic strike, but in low rage situations, and a good tank can always burn off rage, Devestate is just more efficient and theres nothing wrong with making it more so.

  20. #40
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    Yea but look at the amount of rage gained from Blessing of Sanc 1,540 that's quite a lot which means he probably wasn't even close to rage starved.

    Even though that is a patchwerk meter and you can't always rely on having blessing of sanc which I don't know why you wouldn't bring a pally with it to a 25 man.

    Oh yea there were 39 total devastates and 26 total revenges counting dodge, misses and parries. but not counting them only 31 devastates and 21 revenges actually did dmg. He also only gained S&B 10 times.

    If he were 3/3 Imp HS means he gained 45 rage from the ones that crit since the glyph gives 10 and it would only cost 9 rage.


    Also for the Glyph of Devastate, once you hit 5 sunders from it what is the use of it? The same goes for Glyph of Sunder Armor, what is the use of it when you are not multi target tanking?

    Now I do not know what the final word is on this but many people speculate those 2 glyphs would work well in tandem. But what I've heard is that the sunder from Glyph of Dev generates no threat so what is the point of those 2 glyphs? The Sunder Armor I could see in multi target but like I said how many times are you multi target tanking other that trash and WILL the threat from that sunder on the other mob be the reason wether or not someone pulled that mob off you? Again correct me if I'm wrong on the sunder armor giving no threat to Glyph of Dev.

    I'd still have to think Glyph of Blocking - Item - World of Warcraft <<Must have

    Glyph of Revenge - Item - World of Warcraft and Glyph of Heroic Strike - Item - World of Warcraft will be the 3 glyphs tanks will be choosing from what is out there at the moment.

    Glyph of Last Stand - Item - World of Warcraft is useful but if you're needing to last stand every 2 minutes either the boss you are tanking hits like a Mac Truck or your healers are falling asleep.
    Last edited by Mefear; 10-07-2008 at 03:09 AM.

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