Glyph of Revenge is excellent, and saves a lot more rage than Puncture.
Over 2 minutes you get 20 normal SSs, plus around 10 in place of Devastates (maybe less, depends entirely on luck), 20 Revenges and 30 Devastates.
You also swing at 1.3 speed if you have a Windfury totem in raid (you should), so that is 92 possible Heroic Strikes.
20 of those are free (Rev glyph), saving you 240 rage if you don't have Imp HS. 180, if you do.
Puncture in this case saves 90 rage.
Glyph of HS synergizes well with the Revenge glyph, generating you a lot of rage, especially in rage starved situations (where you essentially use HS tied with Revenge procs).
If we had used all the 92 HS in this time, at a 30% crit rate, you'd generate a 270 rage you wouldn't normally.
@Puncture: there are better places to spend these points, quite simply. And, yes, even Imp HS gives you better results. Due to a bit higher average white DPS (more AP) we get a bit more rage/hit now, and with all the free Shield Slams our rotation is quite cheap to maintain. Don't forget you aren't spending 10 rage @ every 5secs to use Shield Block as well.
(So, yes, your HS takes up your white swing rage as well, but is a huge improvement over the normal swing damage, almost doubles the damage with the new ranks, with about 1xx additional threat.. and +15% crit.. all this costing no GCDs)
My guild did a fail-run at Karazhan and ZA on beta yesterday, we started Kara with 6 people and did ZA with 8 (bear run with.. 15 minutes left with 8 people, the nerf is quite.. apparent).
@Maiden -> 40s fight (with 6 people... 2 tanks, 2 healers and 2 DPS):
Used 22 HS, 7 SS, 4 Rev, 10 Dev, 12 normal melee.
No Puncture in spec, no Imp HS, I was 71, most of the raid 70.
I'll probably go with Glyph of Blocking+Glyph of Revenge come the patch (IF Glyph of Blocking is easily available - it isn't a trainer recipe) and get Glyph of HS at 80.
Might change my mind and get one of the others, but..
Probable specs ->
At the 80 spec I'll possibly try to free up some points to get Deep Wounds, depending on how it stacks/rolls.
Bored at work. Small rage usage analysis:
Over 120 secs:
20 SS = 340 rage
20 rev = 40 rage
40 dev = 360 rage
24 SBs = 240 rage
total = 980 rage spent over 120 secs with Focused Rage + Puncture
Over 120 secs:
30 SS (10 free) = 340 rage
20 rev = 40 rage
30 dev = 360 rage (no puncture) / 270 rage (puncture)
total = 740 rage (no puncture), 650 rage (puncture
Even without puncture, you have an extra 240 rage left. 330 with it.
If you decide to HS with all the rage you have left:
Puncture vs Imp HS
Puncture: 330 rage, 12 rage/HS = 27.5 HSs
Imp HS: 240 rage, 9 rage/HS = 26.67 HSs
That's only considering the rage you have left from not using as much now.. if you also take into account how much you use in HSs today, Imp HS comes quite a bit ahead.
Realistically, Puncture is a good talent when you are 100% rage starved, but it gets more and more lackluster as you get a reasonable amount of inc rage.
Last edited by Zegai; 10-07-2008 at 06:02 AM.
Nah can't get Glyph of blocking when 3.0 comes out I think it's like lvl 400 something inscription which makes me a sad panda.
I'm not really sure why everyone is so focused on absolutely maximizing threat output...they've given us a TON of new threat generating abilities, and threat is only half our job. Our other half is making sure we stay alive...and whoever said that the stun from revenge would avoid more damage than 4% spell miss...when's the last time you stunned a boss? --IMMUNE-- IMMUNE-- "Hey guys, this concussion blow isn't working..."
Vigilance is supposedly not worth it, if you read the first page of this post. I can neither confirm nor deny, but hey, I'd rather not spend a point in it...
In any case, if my healers are suddenly complaining of boredom, I'll throw all my avoidance/mitigation talents to the wolves. And I'll pick up revenge on the way to 80. Til then, I'll take 4% decrease to spell hit (and a nice little bonus multi-reflect for trash...hyjal anyone?).
Last edited by Thortok; 10-07-2008 at 07:17 PM.
It's not that useful, even in Hyjal. You have to be in extremely close quarters with your party (the range is pretty small, at least from what I read about it) and your cooldown is unchanged - I normally take the initial shadow bolts with reflects myself. It also gives the threat of the bolts to the original target in case he reflects it - and that's bad. If it worked as before - reducing the CD of Reflect, it'd be a very good talent, however. I also doubt you'd notice a real difference with the 4% miss x not having it.
I could see argument about taking Imp Disciplines and perhaps even Imp Demo Shout (although Curse of Weakness is probably more useful now).
Of the other talents, Safeguard is extremely situational and Disarm can only be used in a handful of targets.
And threat is not THAT good off, we are pretty good at generating threat with no good gear - the gap will probably get a lot closer in the mid/long run.
So, can anyone on the PTR confirm whether bosses will be vulnerable to disarm? I mean we're talking the difference between a solo/pvp talent and a must have...
And so the average rotation of skills is
revenge on cd
heroic strike when above 40 rage.
The new rotation looks like
revenge on cd
and SW on cd
then SS on cd
Only with shield slam procs we do that instead of devastate and always SW before SS.
does that make sense to anyone but me?
Also for Threat front load on a single target we SS or SW?
A lot of speculation here over the effectiveness of heroic strike. The valid argument is yes, heroic strike is only causing the threat gain of (heroic strike threat) - (potential melee threat).
But if we look at that threat meter, we see that the heroic strikes are doing 16 times as much threat as the whit hits. Now, there were only 21 white hits compared to 119 heroic strike connections. So we're still not entirely sure where all that extra threat is coming from.
A lot is illuminated by crit values. Of those 21 whit damage hits, only 1 was a crit. Perhaps that is a small sample size error, but most tanks would not be likely to expect more than 2 or 3 hits out of 2 to crit. On the other hand, there were 45 heroic strike crits. With the added crit talents for the skill, you're seeing a very large and significant increase in the critting for heroic strike compared to just letting a white swing happen.
Now the typical white swing does just over half as much damage and twice as much threat as a non crit heroic strike. In the test, heroic strike crit 25% more often than white hits, with crits causing 4x the normal white threat.
Add it up and, on average, a heroic strike causes 2.5 times more threat than a white hit. Now, based on the percentage of his total threat all white hits and heroic strikes were, if you made all white hits herioc strike, heroic strike would account for roughly 38% of your total threat. If you never used heroic strike, the resulting white hits would account for about 15% of your total threat. Therefore, using heroic strike is as much as a 22% increase in short-term TPS.
Bottom line, use heroic strike as much as is humanly possible, because while you're using it, it's over 1/5 extra threat.
Any and all extra talenst that can be taken to ensure an infinite rage situation should be, especially in more single target scenerios.
I don't know if I really just said much that wasn't mostly intuitive, but it's nice to have the numbers boiled down a bit, and I was wondering myself where all that extra threat was coming from until I saw the crit difference.
We'll have to keep an eye on how heroic strike's importance changes as progression goes on as it won't scale...
PTR is live with the other talents, we can't get to Northrend. Bosses still work exactly the same. You can most likely not disarm raid bosses.
Originally Posted by Thortok
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
This is basically the build I'm using (only difference is that the 2 in focussed rage are in improved rend, which I regret. I was in a hurry.) I'm never really rage deprived, and when I am, it's usually because there is only one mob left and aggro from my TC/Shockwave has enough aggro already on it.