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Thread: Warrior Tank socketing in 3.0/Wrath - thoughts?

  1. #1
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    Warrior Tank socketing in 3.0/Wrath - thoughts?

    Hi everyone,

    Like most of the posters here I am beside myself with excitement for the new 3.0/Wrath content. My mains are both protection spec warriors (although one will be going TG spec) and so, the patch just can't get here fast enough for me! Having said that - I've been following the mechanic changes to our class very closely and have been spending countless hours on the PTR practicing new rotations, AOE tanking, etc. Because of some of these changes, and the increased emphasis on STR/AP and block, I was hoping to discuss the way we might go about socketing our gear post-3.0.

    Personally I am considering socketing a lot more STR gems. With the reduction in health and damage output of raid bosses, as well as the removal of crushing blows, it no longer feels quite so.. mandatory to stuff sockets full of STA gems.

    On the other hand many of our abilities now scale directly on account of STR/AP, and the block value returns we get from it is just amazing compared to before. I've never been a fan of socketing for avoidance, either, and certainly wouln't want an excess of that in most situations now that we have Damage Shield. I'd much rather socket with a stat that fuels multiple aspects of my mechanics and atm, I really don't see any stat doing that better than STR.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Combined str + sta gems, I'd rather not sacrifice all my health for threat production. Also I wouldn't want to be completely gimped in avoidance when Wrath actually hits the shelves.

  3. #3
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    Probably Strength and Stamina that, of course, is assuming I'm not short on Defense.

  4. #4
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    I didn't mean to imply that I would replace *all* my gems with STR. Rather, that I no longer see the point of explicitly socketing for STA. And I wouldn't be gimped for avoidance no matter how I socketed, most of my higher-end tank gear is loaded with Dodge rating (more than I would prefer actually)and a few pieces have a good deal of Parry as well. Even if I resocketed 75-80% of my STA gems that would hardly represent 'all' of my health. My point was, now that STR directly and significantly affects a great deal of our abilities -Shockwave, Thunderclap, Shield Slam, Conc. Blow and Damage Shield to name a few - it only makes sense to get more of it. A lot of our abilities lost their inherant 'high threat' and so we have to make that up through sheer damage.

    I don't know about you guys but I'm going to be tanking nonstop once this patch hits. I've kind of taken a breather from it on live as of late, aside from Kara or ZA, because I want to come into 3.0 fresh and excited to tank. Tanking on the PTR is more fun, more versatile than it has ever been, at least in my opinion. People knock Blizz all the time (and they do deserve some of that knocking) but they hit the ball out of the park when it comes to prot warriors. They said they wanted to make tanking fun.. they did indeed.

  5. #5
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    I've played a bit on beta as prot and like it enough. I have just about complete T6 gear so I'm anticipating that I'll get few upgrades until raiding. For leveling I plan to stack +str.

    For first forays into Naxx I'll probably emphasize +stam but also try to pick up +def if I'm just short of the 540 mark. +str seems great for gear that you use for trash or lower level content for the benefits to TPS but I can't see myself stacking it for pure raiding.

  6. #6
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    Much is depending upon how threat generation shakes out but in my mind, STA is even more the best stat to stack due to DR on avoidance. Perhaps some specific threat stats here and there like hit/expertise and some STR/Sta combo gems for those pesky red slots but aside from that, unless you run into real threat issues, Stam is going to be king again, IMO.

    That said, while leveling, I'll probably mix it up quite a bit but I think that can be motly accomplished with a big fat slow MH with high STR on it and an accessory or 2-switching to a 'tank' weapon for instance runs.

    I think there is some definite wiggle room in there for a little customization to play style. In any case, I'm definitely going to play around with it plenty and see what I like best. Provided you can hold threat without explicitly stacking STR and stick with massive EH, you set yourself up to being hard to kill and allowing people to beat the crap out of mobs and never miss a beat.
    your hat may be nice, but I have the little white tank top that says Legendary right across my boobs. I win. (or more correctly, H wins)

  7. #7
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    Here's the biggest problem I see with this threat-stats-on-gear approach. It's just a logical inconsistency:

    GC and other devs have stated flat out that they're moving away from boss fights being about managing threat. That's why they've given us such cocktacularly high DPS. They've stated they want us to be outputting 70% of the damage of the DPS.

    Tank threat = 0.70 * 2.07 + bonus threat from abilities >>>>> 1 = DPS threat

    So if threat is not going to be that important, then on progression fights, where you're stretched to the limit... why the fuck would we want so much item budget wasted on STR and threat stats?

    I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. At some point, if we are having trouble surviving a boss fight, but are having no trouble staying ahead of DPS threat, then we would actually prefer gear with less STR and more STA/avoid. But there won't be any.

    Am I missing something?
    Last edited by Forklift; 10-02-2008 at 02:52 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forklift View Post
    Here's the biggest problem I see with this threat-stats-on-gear approach. It's just a logical inconsistency:

    GC and other devs have stated flat out that they're moving away from boss fights being about managing threat. That's why they've given us such cocktacularly high DPS. They've stated they want us to be outputting 70% of the damage of the DPS.

    Tank threat = 0.70 * 2.07 + bonus threat from abilities >>>>> 1 = DPS threat

    So if threat is not going to be that important, then on progression fights, where you're stretched to the limit... why the fuck would we want so much item budget wasted on STR and threat stats?

    I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. At some point, if we are having trouble surviving a boss fight, but are having no trouble staying ahead of DPS threat, then we would actually prefer gear with less STR and more STA/avoid. But there won't be any.

    Am I missing something?
    If I may speculate... perhaps what you are missing is that "bonus threat from abilities" will be a relatively small portion of our threat, much smaller than it has been until now. Most of it will in fact be threat from damage. Our "cocktacularly high DPS", as you put it, has been given to us instead of high innate threat values, not in addition to. Therefore managing threat has transformed into maximizing damage.

    Of course our massive (207%) threat multiplier, and that fact that our abilities have retained some innate threat values, means that the threat/damage optimization game is not quite as hard as it used to be - but the damage required to maintain a proper baseline of threat still has to come from somewhere. Hence the DPS stats on our gear. You are, of course, still free to gem and enchant for nothing but survivability, and I expect that many (most?) raid tanks will do just that.

    Note also that Blizzard does not balance itemization, classes, and encounters disjointly; they are all balanced against each other. Thus encounters are balanced to require the amount of each kind of stat that the gear actually has. I wouldn't worry about it, personally.

  9. #9
    Makhno - I think Forklift's point was that any tank will easily be able to out-threat the DPS... so why maximize Str for threat purposes?

    There are really two options:

    Scale up your Str and scale down your Stam: you'll have less health, but you'll contribute to killing baddies faster.

    Scale up your Stam and scale down your Stam: you'll have lots more health, and still out-threat the DPS (supposedly), but you'll be sacrificing a chunk of DPS for that survivability.

    I believe (not positive) but for a good chunk of raiders, especially the first 6months or so, will need to gem some Def in their gear to hit 540 def rating... so it's not really as cut and dry as "stam or strength" since there's a third component in the mix.

    Basically we'll have to wait and see what things are actually like at 80 for us that aren't in the super badass guilds.

    And of course the even more obvious answer is that you'll have an Effective Health set and a Threat set, just like now.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghladum View Post
    Scale up your Stam and scale down your Str: you'll have lots more health, and still out-threat the DPS (supposedly), but you'll be sacrificing a chunk of DPS for that survivability.

    Got your back ghladum.

    And what you're saying is true. We are doing quite a lot more threat than dps can manage(I know the thought is a bit far off compared to live), but it is the truth in beta. This leads to the inevitable reasoning that being a better tank will be more beneficial than increasing your dps by a given amount(even if that amount is substantial), we will not be exceeding 70% of a real dps's dps.

    Therefore, gem stam, expertise, block value, and avoidance if you're hurting. The gear should have plenty, and I am looking at PLENTY, of STR(AP) on it atm.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghladum View Post
    Makhno - I think Forklift's point was that any tank will easily be able to out-threat the DPS... so why maximize Str for threat purposes?
    Well, my point is just that unlike in BC, our threat will scale a great deal with offensive stats on gear. Which means that (once again, unlike in BC) there will be a BIG difference in threat output of a tank who's wearing nothing but survivability stats, and a tank who has a proper amount of threat stats.

    So, yes, any tank will easily be able to out-threat the DPS... because our gear will have threat stats on it. It's not like we just get tons of free threat, and then all this Strength/Hit/whatever on our gear is somehow an irrelevant bonus.

    So that's something to keep in mind when people ask, "Why do we need threat stats on our gear?" Because that's where our "cocktacular" threat comes from.

    (Now whether we'll want to socket/enchant for even more threat/damage stats... that remains to be seen. Depends on how DPS output of other classes scales, I suppose.)

  12. #12
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    I originally was considering socketing some sort of Str/Stam hybrid combo depending on socket colors and bonuses (at least for 3.0) instead of the 15/18 Stam in blues, 10 Dodge in reds, 10/12 Defense in yellows that I have atm for my sunwell gear, but after messing around a bit on beta it seems like socketing for Str to me will really just be overkill. It may be alright if you yourself want to do a little bit more damage/threat or have a little bit more BV, but I think our threat will be more than sufficient without having to socket for it at all. That said, unless I notice some sort of threat issues, I'll probably finish off TBC raiding regemming entirely for Stamina with the exception of one 5Def/7Stam gem in my shoulders, not only to get the socket bonus, but to activate the Def/BV% meta gem as well. Beyond that, I'm returning to ZG enchant and Sapphiron enchant as opposed to CoT Glyph and Aldor Inscription for my helm/shoulders.

    As for WotLK, I imagine most will remain the same once we fill out in full level 80 gear, but I can definitely forsee regemming for Defense early on to ensure crit immunity as a potential possibility, but I imagine I'll have to play that by ear. Taking it one step at a time with re-itemizing my current gear for 3.0 first (even though that patch is going to trivialize everything anyway), and I'll worry about 80 as I start leveling toward there and obtaining more gear from Northrend.
    -ItZMuRdA-

  13. #13
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    One of the things to remember is that stacking STR increases your block value by a ton. With a lot of the new stuff like critical block, block rating and block value may become highly desirable forms of mitigation.

    Though EH (stamina) will probably win out in general for progression anyway.

  14. #14
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    Do you guys see what I'm talking about? There's a fundamental, clear-cut, logical contradiction.

    They are putting stats on gear we don't want, yet again. We don't want that much STR on gear. Just look at the items with 100 STR and 150 STA--if you rebudgeted that to 50 STR and 225 STA, you would be much, much better off.

    If threat is no longer an issue, if we are doing 70% of DPS's damage, and we're producing more than double that damage in threat, and we get a little bonus threat here and there from abilities, we are wasting item budget producing threat nobody is going to reach, instead of getting fattier HP pools or better avoidance stats so we can tank better content.

  15. #15
    Haven't read anything in this threat, but from some preliminary math, it seems like strength is going to overcome exp/hit for threat.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forklift View Post
    If threat is no longer an issue, if we are doing 70% of DPS's damage, and we're producing more than double that damage in threat, and we get a little bonus threat here and there from abilities, we are wasting item budget producing threat nobody is going to reach, instead of getting fattier HP pools or better avoidance stats so we can tank better content.
    All I'm going to say is: I hate this line of thought. "Oh no, don't give us stuff that lets us do damage, give us stuff that lets us tank better" is what led to the BC model of "arms and fury suck at tanking, prot sucks at everything else."

    And if it's true that threat is no longer an issue, they need to adjust things until managing aggro (in raids, particularly) *is* an issue again.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia View Post
    All I'm going to say is: I hate this line of thought. "Oh no, don't give us stuff that lets us do damage, give us stuff that lets us tank better" is what led to the BC model of "arms and fury suck at tanking, prot sucks at everything else."

    And if it's true that threat is no longer an issue, they need to adjust things until managing aggro (in raids, particularly) *is* an issue again.

    except they specifically said they never want a DPS to be forced to slow down because of a threat ceiling anymore.

    i personally thing that blizzard was sick of the "LF2M HEALER AND TANK" so they made tanking so retardely easy that either people wont care how much you suck because even the worst players will hold agro over dps going all out all the time.

    this will lead to one of 2 things, good players not standing out at all because it doesnt matter how good you are or good players will be praised even more so than they are now because it will be even easier to spot when a tank goes that extra mile.

    either way i hate it



  18. #18
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    After the steady dumbing down of the game through TBC, people are honestly surprised by this?

    We'll see if better tanks can still distinguish themselves through non-threat means (gearing appropriately for fights, ability to position and think on feet, etc.) Hopefully there's some room left for the min-maxer to shine.

    Thinking you can look like a hot stick via threat is old news. This is most prevalent in people's thoughts on Vigilance. You won't ever need Vigilance on a single target tanking job unless you are undergeared compared to a DPS'r. Vigilance is an AoE tanking helper talent. Put it on the mage or warlock that's going to town on mobs and soak up the extra threat on the group while you Thunder Clap and Shockwave your little heart out.

    Evolve, die, or quit.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamani View Post
    Haven't read anything in this threat, but from some preliminary math, it seems like strength is going to overcome exp/hit for threat.
    Doing no math, I had a feeling it would

    Besides, expertise and hit should be comparatively easy to get your hands on in WotLK from some little bit of wowhead digging i've done.

    [EDIT]:
    Good tanks will still position mobs correctly, and reflexively act in the right way when the sh@t hits the fan. Min/maxing is great on paper, but if you aren't in the top percentile of players with access to the best gear, best gems/enchants, and best players to raid with it's of little use beyond regurgitating someone else's info on forums. Honestly, the part of tanking that matters is and always has been something you either just know how to do or you don't. These changes do not effect that outside normal difficulty 5-mans, it will be fine I'm sure.
    Last edited by kolben; 10-05-2008 at 11:20 AM.

  20. #20
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    Having played around with tanking on the PTR, i can say that tanking is a TON less tedious than it used to be. Hopefully this will eliminate the tank burnout problem. I personally have tanked my entire time in game, and had the most fun MGT i've ever ran the other night because i didn't need to rely on multiple cc's, and every mistake on my part didn't mean certain death.

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