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Thread: 3.0 Is Defense the new black?

  1. #1
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    3.0 Is Defense the new black?

    I'm currently in sunwell as an offtank for my guild. I havn't had a chance to try my hand at Brutallus yet on my warrior however we have successfully tanked and downed him. I have tanked kalecgos and done fine.

    With 3.0 coming out and the changes to avoidance on gear due to the reitemization towards STR, is Pink... I mean Defense the new black? I've been socketing ALMOST everything for dodge so far as I am past the effective health requirements for the fights. T6 is really high on the red sockets and low on the yellows. I've been hitting most of my socket bonus' with +10 Dodge for reds, +10 defense for yellows and 5 def 7stam for blues.

    What I'm saying however is that... the huge changes to EH that come from raid buffs / reitemization / rescaling of BV from str would it not be smarter to push for 'passive uncrushable' even after they remove crushing blows to make sure that every normal white on us is atleast blocked rather than leave hit on the table and push dodge? As +10defense gems add near the same avoidance a dodge gem does but the previously 'who gives' stat of block value that is on those gems brings an entirly new effective health weight to the table that they didn't have before.

    Am I crazy or will every peice of gear I have be socketed for defense until I hit 102.5% avoidance/block EVEN after the removal of crushing blows?

    These changes bring a new weight to the defense to bracers / defense chest / defense cloak enchants that have been looked down on as lesser EH / avoidance enchants in the past as well.

    Not to mention the fact that defense brings miss to the table which is by far the best avoidance stat in the game imho as it is the only one that applies while stunned / incapacitated / disoriented.

    All of that said past the 'passive uncrushable' (lol at still using this term) 102.5% it would likely be smart to start swapping those defense gems slowly to dodge gems while maintaining 102.5 to drive avoidance a little bit.

    Thoughts? Impressions?
    Last edited by Bigmoomma; 09-30-2008 at 05:33 AM. Reason: Edited for clarity

  2. #2
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    Im not sure if it will be possible to reach passive uncrushable through gear because of the diminishing returns on avoidance stats that should be going in with 3.0. With the huge SBV increase it would be amazing to have every swing avoided or blocked, but i think the gear and mechanics are changing so much it may not be possible without proced trinkets, abilities, or potentially stacking pure Block rating.
    Galushi - 85 Dwarf Warrior - Shadowsong US Alliance.
    Branigan - 85 Goblin Warrior - Kilrogg US Horde.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galushi View Post
    Im not sure if it will be possible to reach passive uncrushable through gear because of the diminishing returns on avoidance stats that should be going in with 3.0. With the huge SBV increase it would be amazing to have every swing avoided or blocked, but i think the gear and mechanics are changing so much it may not be possible without proced trinkets, abilities, or potentially stacking pure Block rating.
    I must have missed something somewhere. Diminishing returns on avoidance stats? I recognize the flat reduction we'll be catching due to itemization, and while leveling up we'll obviously see a stat drop as is appropriate, but where did diminishing returns come from? I havn't seen that anywhere, and I might just be looking in the wrong places so pardon me if I'm malinformed. Diminishing returns is going to blow if we're seriously catching them. Blizzard hasn't often pushed people away from min/maxxing (even in other video games) if this is a new trend I am going to be MIGHTY confused.

    Also, I might be off my rocker, but does anyone have the dodge rating / defense rating / parry rating / block rating to skill / % values anywhere? I know I saw some rough numbers somewhere before but I misplaced them.

    Also - achievable or not, would the goal not be the same? Defense vs Dodge it's the better stat with similar avoidance and a secondary EH value to it. Is pink is the new black?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigmoomma View Post
    Also, I might be off my rocker, but does anyone have the dodge rating / defense rating / parry rating / block rating to skill / % values anywhere? I know I saw some rough numbers somewhere before but I misplaced them.
    A list of useful Tanking Formulas for Warriors - Dodge, Parry, Block

  5. #5
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    I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant to ask for the numbers at 80. Heh, if I dont know the values at 70 and I'm tanking where I am I deserve to be shot.

    Found it, and on this very own site! Also has the DR information on there. Still might be useful to push towards it, we're going to have to see. Still looking for thoughts on it.

    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...ings-80-a.html
    Last edited by Bigmoomma; 09-30-2008 at 07:27 AM. Reason: Found the new ratings

  6. #6
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    Im not sure if it will be possible to reach passive uncrushable through gear because of the diminishing returns on avoidance stats that should be going in with 3.0. With the huge SBV increase it would be amazing to have every swing avoided or blocked, but i think the gear and mechanics are changing so much it may not be possible without proced trinkets, abilities, or potentially stacking pure Block rating.
    reaching uncrush in 3.02 is easy... at lvl 80.. well... maybe... problem I found with uncrush on the ptr is that to get it, you need to use sucky items who used to be godly, but now ain't so anymore... which in turn makes it hard to keep that "high BV" up.. if you could reach uncrush with 1k+ BV it would be amazing...

  7. #7
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    I want to bring this up to the front again and get some people to touch on this. For me, defense is looking like the superior stat to stack. Avoidance stats are subject to diminishing returns which would make stacking individual avoidance reckless and wasteful of ilvl. Stacking 10 dodge at 70 before diminishing returns returns more (although barely so) avoidance than stackign 10 defense. Due to the fact that the higher the avoidance numbers get the more subject they are to diminishing returns this would be another reason to lean towards stacking all stats evenly - which defense does for us automatically.

    Also to note, Block (and obviously although less importantly because we all should be attaining it fairly easily for PVE (although it might be more useful for pvp) Crit) is not subject to diminishing returns and is another selling point for stacking defense for well rounded avoidance / mitigation stats rather than looking for peices of loot with higher ilvl distributed manually into the avoidance stats of Dodge / Parry.

    Miss is another thing to bring to light - wether or not it is subject to DR (as most people are saying it is) it is still less prone to be affected by DR as much as any other stat simpley because loot does not have a 'miss' stat. That drives the avoidance level of Defense up again considering even if you are stacking 'defense' based items there will be some supplimentary stats on them such as dodge or parry occasionally.

    Thoughts? Opinions?

  8. #8
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    Red socket= Sovereign Shaodowsong Amethyst. cept in places like T6 chest, the bonus is pretty meh so it was triple blue gems in that one. FYI Sunwell Radiance is gone, so avoidance isn't as super insanely awsome to stack in there figuring we got about 25% of our avoidance BACK.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilya M View Post
    Red socket= Sovereign Shaodowsong Amethyst. cept in places like T6 chest, the bonus is pretty meh so it was triple blue gems in that one. FYI Sunwell Radiance is gone, so avoidance isn't as super insanely awsome to stack in there figuring we got about 25% of our avoidance BACK.
    Blah, I keep forgetting to update things. With 3.0 coming to a close heading into the expansion is what I mean.

    I'm still gemmed for avoidance dodge in red etc etc, and it handled me quite well in/through sunwell both pre and post 3.0 so that's not really the issue. I'm talking from more of a theorycrafting perspective of efficiant stat value of defensive items and their priority to tanks.

    I'm not comparing avoidance to EH - because that isn't what this thread is about (although defense does have EH benifits aswell).

    I really should have been more clear and started an entirly new thread for this rather than just drudge up my old one - however the essence of the issue is the same, the nuances of the question are not.

    This is not specifically about gemming - it's about gear choices. What I'm putting forth is that it looks to me like it will always be the smart decision to get 20 defense over 20 dodge, 10 defense 10 dodge, 10 dodge 10 parry, 10 defense 10 parry, or 20 parry. Ilvl to Ilvl, defense is winning across the board until we hit unhittable - or am I missing the fineprint somewhere (excusing the tiny edge parries give us, but even including that the stat change vs stacking parry wouldn't be effecient)?

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