Warrior - averaged rotation

[Arold]

So it looks like the most appropriate answer is it doesn't matter. You'll only be presented with the choice after a SS-Rv-Dv-Dv sequence, and even then only if your lag between moves averages 167ms or more.

In the rare cases when you do have a choice, it's better to hit Revenge. However the overhead of watching carefully for the free-slam buff will wipe out the advantage. I'd recommend you just hit SS when it's up.

Also note in very high rage (where you're hitting every possible Heroic Strike), Shield Slam is better again.

I had to read this 15 times before I understood what you were saying.

Now that I know the result of the math, it's easy to understand why it happened. For both Revenge and "normal" SS to be lit, you would have to go six seconds since your last SS, and five seconds since your last revenge. Furthermore, you must not have had S&B proc during that time.

The math is probibally a bit pessimistic, since it assumes you'll devastate as the default behavior but we'll be doing a lot other things that don't proc S&B. I'd bet money that it's pretty close in spite of that though.

Nevertheless, the fact that Revenge does indeed win makes me suspect more then ever that it'll be nerfed before release!!

[Hypatia]

Hmm. The point about other stuff not proccing S&B is interesting. We'd thought of that, of course, way back when we were thinking "SS, Dev, Dev, Rev" because revenge didn't proc S&B, but I don't know that we've looked at it after the change.

Factoring in the above math, the optimal times to do "other stuff" will be at the end of long type A and type C rotations (replacing the final Devastate). Of course, that's only 32% of all sequences, so we'll probably end up replacing stuff with it at other times as well. (For reference, those long type A and type C rotations should come up about once every 15s, if my math is right. Which ought to be enough to keep up one or two debuffs, but that's about it. And that's on average, so a lucky streak of S&B procs will force you to break the rotation.)

[Naka]

I guess the reality will be that we just watch out to not miss a Shield Slam, and do the other stuff in between. We can't wait for SS AND Revenge not to be up.

[Naka]

talis, i played around a bit with your simulation and added options to calcuate "rotations" with Concussion Blow, Shockwave, Thunder Clap, Demo Shout and Commanding/Battle Shout. Hope you don't mind.

These are the results:

Classic:
120s cycle with 0ms lag:
SS: 25.1 (31.3%)
Free SS: 16.5 (20.6%)
Dev: 36.5 (45.6%)
Rev: 18.5 (23.1%)

No surprise, this is very close to Hypatia's numbers. The slight difference is because talis' simulation accounts for Revenge not to be up all the time (it's 90% which is a fair assumption, i think).


using Concussion Blow and Shockwave prior to Devastate:
120s cycle with 0ms lag:
SS: 24.1 (30.1%)
Free SS: 14.0 (17.5%)
Dev: 28.2 (35.3%)
Rev: 18.6 (23.2%)
CB: 3.8 (4.8%)
SW: 5.3 (6.6%)

We see that we're losing a couple of Free Slams, but can replace most of them with non-free ones. And we're obiously losing no Revenges. So we're pretty much able to primarily replace Devastates with CB and SW, which makes this "rotation" very likely more effektive.


keeping Thunder Clap, Demo Shout and Commanding/Battle Shout up:
120s cycle with 0ms lag:
SS: 23.9 (29.9%)
Free SS: 13.9 (17.4%)
Dev: 29.0 (36.2%)
Rev: 17.3 (21.7%)
TC: 4.4 (5.5%)
Demo: 4.4 (5.4%)
Shout: 1.0 (1.3%)


use all the stuff:
120s cycle with 0ms lag:
SS: 23.1 (28.8%)
Free SS: 11.5 (14.4%)
Dev: 20.9 (26.2%)
Rev: 17.5 (21.9%)
CB: 3.8 (4.7%)
SW: 5.0 (6.3%)
TC: 4.4 (5.5%)
Demo: 4.4 (5.5%)
Shout: 1.0 (1.3%)


Looks like good news: Even with SnB, we have the continuing ability to replace mostly Devestate with "other stuff", hardly losing any Slams and Revenges.

[Glomgore]

Ok, so my head hurts.

What I'm gathering from this for the people that REALLY didn't get ANY of that.. like airplane height over my head...

Hit shield slam ALL the time, whenever it's up, whenever it procs, anything. Mash that key.

Once you've used a SS, pop revenge if it's up. Got it.

SS not up yet? Use a dev.
SS still not up? bad luck? pop another dev.
Repeat?

Toss a demo and a TC, and a shockwave and a concussion when ya feel like it might be a good time? Keep your shout up? I got it. Downloading the PTR now... I can't handle it.

That summarize it right?

[talisfears]

Nice experiments Naka, that's exactly what I hoped would happen if I released the code.

[Ciderhelm]

Code tags have been fixed. Apologies! And nice discussion.

[Kahmal]

Ok....so is Shockwave on Priority on Single Target Mobs at all?

I'm going to guess that for 3+ you'd use Shockwave and Thunderclap in place of a Devastate when there up.

And whats this about CC Blow thrown into the mix?

[Kazeyonoma]

for threat they aren't that great, but they do scale which is good because they are AP based, but because tanks don't have THAT much (we have a lot more than before) AP Shockwave and conc blow fall short of the standard rotation, since Shockwave and conc blow have no other threat values other than straight damage, which is based on AP * X%

[Naka]

Both Concussion and Shockwave clearly beat Devastate in threat if you have around 1500 AP or more. There has some math to be done if it makes up for the lost opportunity of a free SS, but it looks like it does.
So for now i'd say yes - use CB and SW in place of a Dev, even against single targets. At the very least when SS is only a GCD away.

[enderwiggin]

Shockwave an CB are fun i tend to use SW on multiple mob's or or wone of the two when it feels like the healers could use a damage break(also when i just want to see the cool new animation)
I greatly enjoy understanding my best possible rotations. In the instance i seem to putout more total damage than other classes(while tanking) and less dps. I am guessing this realtes to Tclap and Damaging shield.

I do have a question about new shield block. Is it just keep Shield block on cooldown or is there a time and a place for it?. At 40seconds CD it seems a waste just to blow it every time its up. I have been using out of habit atfirst and then...after reading the new tool tip. I have been using it to frontload threat. More threat always feels better but i was wondering if anyone had found other applications for it

[Naka]

Shield Block is essentially a very powerful, dual-purpose trinket now. Use it as a threat and damage boost on trash an bosses you outgear, and save it for silences, enrages, etc. on bosses were you are mainly concerned about survival.

[Sparan]

I'm interested in knowing if CB and SW are preferable to devastate even when your SS is more than one GCD away. It seems to me that that's a hard call to make, especially in the scenario where revenge procs SnB and coming off your free SS you have 1 GCD until you can revenge and 3 before you can SS again. A 30% SnB proc chance on the devastate in this scenario should easily outvalue a CB or a SW, but alas I'm not an adroit enough math-crafter to show it. Some help, perhaps?

[Kazeyonoma]

I think if you are on your first devastate of your ss/rev/dev/dev rotation, it is better to take the dev since there's a chance of it procing ss early, if you're on your 2nd dev then I think blowing the CD on SW or CB is more beneficial because even if the dev proc'd a SS it wouldn't come any earlier, it'd just be free.