# Thread: Diminishing Returns - Avoidance

1. New Registrant
Join Date
May 2009
Posts
17
Ah, kk, thanks, I see my mistake now. I assumed the base agi gave 5% Dodge, and it actually gave me 4.97ish, meaning the dodge, stupid assumptions, sorry about that and thanks.
Last edited by Carmaine; 05-21-2009 at 11:54 AM.

2. I think for human paladins it comes out to 5% oddly enough, but it changes based on race/class.

3. Yeah, I sorta glossed over the derivation of naked dodge in the math and just used "suppose you have 5% dodge naked". I should probably add a bit on how to calculate it.

4. I think a lot of people have trouble with base versus naked stats, if those are even good terms to use.

I tend to use base to mean how much of a particular stat a class in general has with no regard to race, talents, gear, or contributions from other stats. I then tend to define naked as how much of a particular stat you have without talents or gear (but does consider race and contributions from other stats). Kind of the two extremes when not considering gear or talents.

Like agility for example, I differentiate dodge like this:
Base Dodge = how much dodge you have minus all agility and without gear or talents. The only thing that affects base dodge is class.

Base Agility = how much agility you have regardless of race, gear, or talents. The dodge from this is not considered part of base dodge, but simply referred to as dodge from base agility. Only class affects this.

Naked agility = how much agility you have regardless of gear or talents. Both class and race affect this. It is simply base_agility + agility_from_race

Naked dodge = how much dodge you have regardless of gear or talents. Both class and race affect this. It is simply base_dodge + dodge_from_naked_agility.

I do the same with health defining the base_health (which is class based), base_stamina (class based), naked stamina (race&class based), and naked health (race&class based)

Again, those are my own definitions though.

I noticed in your OP, you kind of use them interchangeably (not that my method is standard). I kind of wish there was a well defined terminology to differentiate the two.

5. New Registrant
Join Date
Apr 2009
Posts
7
Originally Posted by Satrina
• The dodge and parry numbers shown on your character sheet do have diminishing returns taken into account

I don't really know, but on my in-game character sheet it's said that numbers do not have diminishing returns tanken into account :

So, how is it really ? Are DR taken in account and blizzard's saying wrong stuff again or not ?

Thx for the anwser and great job by the way =)

6. The tooltip is worded in an awkward way. Since Deathknights have funky stuff with strength converting to parry, I'll use my own stats as a warrior.

I have a base 5% chance to parry, and 5% from Deflection for 10% parry that is not on DR. I'm at 549 defense (733 defense rating). As we see here, I have some parry rating:

When I crunch out the numbers (converting defense to parry chance and parry rating to parry chance), I find that my defense before diminishing returns is contributing 5.97% parry, and the parry rating is contributing 5.96% parry, for a total of 11.93% parry.

If I add that to my base and talent parry, I get 21.93%, which is not what we see on the tooltip. So, let's put the parry from defense and rating to the DR. When we do that, they combine to make 9.85% parry, which when added to the 10% from base and parry gives the correct 19.85% parry chance.

So the answer to that question is that the number at the top of the tooltip is your complete parry chance including diminishing returns. The "before diminishing returns" part applies only to the parry chance from rating shown on the tooltip. Same thing happens on the dodge tooltip.

Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
Sydney
Posts
284
Originally Posted by xbobohobox
I believe your Miss DR Calculations are no longer accurate as of 3.1.0

Using your formula I get very different numbers than my char sheet.
As far as I'm aware the Miss value presented on the char sheet is ultimately correct, with the only adjustment being -0.6% if you're dealing with a boss type mob.
Your premise is incorrect. The Char panel miss % is wrong, it excludes base miss (5%), talent miss, nelf miss and it does not include dim returns either.

The 0.6% is also missing, you're right.

8. New Registrant
Join Date
Apr 2009
Posts
2
Originally Posted by GravityDK
Your premise is incorrect. The Char panel miss % is wrong, it excludes base miss (5%), talent miss, nelf miss and it does not include dim returns either.

The 0.6% is also missing, you're right.

There seem to be a lot of confusion about whether or not the values displayed on the character sheet are correct, let me see if I can clear some of this up. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

The character sheet values are correct. When you open up your character sheet, all of the numbers displayed to you as statistics for base stats, dodge, parry, crit, armor, whatever are the correct values that formulas (like satrina's) are trying to reproduce.

If your character sheet says you have 23.45% dodge chance, thats what you have.

The values that are troublesome and inaccurate are the ones displayed when you mouse over one of your statistics to get more detailed information about that stat. For example: mousing over dodge tells me that 600 dodge rating gives me 15% dodge. note that the tooltip here says "before diminishing returns." In this example 600 dodge rating is not really giving me 15% dodge, despite the tooltip, its giving me maybe 12% dodge.

The only avoidance chance that isn't displayed on your character sheet directly is Miss Chance, which you need to mouse over your defense value to see. Because it is displayed in a tooltip, it is not accurate in regards to diminishing returns. This also makes it tricky to test formulas for miss chance.

Also because miss is displayed in the tooltip of defense, and we do not have a stat to actually show us our miss chance, we don't see our base miss chance, miss chance from buffs, or any other factors affecting miss chance.

Another piece of information to keep in mind while looking at character sheet values is that these values are for fighting a mob that is the same level as you. When fighting higher level mobs, there are usually penalties (stat depression) applied to each stat, for example if you're level 80, fighting a level 83 mob, your chance to dodge is actually 0.6% lower than what your character sheet displays. Another example is in physical hit chance, where your chance to hit has a penalty equal to: 0.1% per point in difference between the targets defense skill (level x 5) and your weapon skill and if the difference is more than 10 points, a 1% penalty + 0.4% per point difference after the first 10 points

So basically if you see a value displayed directly on your character sheet, and not in a tooltip for one of the stats on your character sheet, then the information you're looking at is correct for fighting mobs your level. The stats displayed in tooltips ,on the other hand, are not always correct. Miss chance displayed in the tooltip for defense is not accurate, nor is it attempting to represent your total miss chance.

Hope this clears up some of the confusion

9. New Registrant
Join Date
Jun 2009
Posts
3

## Lost

Is there a warrior i guess macro i can use to see what my total percentage of avoidance is and if so is it different than the paladins Thank yall for your help

10. Established Registrant
Join Date
Dec 2008
Posts
457

11. New Registrant
Join Date
Jun 2009
Posts
3
ty

12. New Registrant
Join Date
Aug 2009
Posts
2
I have been trying to calculate my dodge % and I've found some ambiguities.
I am a Blood Elf Paladin, and currently without talents and gear I am sitting at 5.03% dodge.
When calculating my dodge using the formulas in the OP, I always ended up right on what is shown in my character sheet, BUT that is assuming that we have 5% base dodge.
In wowwiki, I found a list of supposed "Base dodge" and they have listed 3.268500% for paladins. Adding the 92 agility from base stats should give 92/52.083333=1.76640% dodge. This adds up to 5.034900%, which is closer to what is shown in my character sheet and more logical than assuming plain 5% base dodge. Now, there are 2 things that I do not understand about this method to calculate base dodge, 1) Where do those 3.2685% come from, and 2) Why isn't the dodge coming from base agility subject to diminishing returns?
Lastly, when I calculate my dodge using 5.03% base dodge, I always end up ~0.3% higher than what is shown in my character sheet. What is the problem here?

I also just realized one more thing.
Patch 3.2.0 (2009-08-04):
• Agility: The amount of agility required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This change required recalibrating the amount of dodge a player has with 0 agility by a slight amount as well, so all players will see their dodge percentage vary a small amount.
If agility per dodge % was increased, how come does the formula still works just fine?
Last edited by fjsuarez; 08-11-2009 at 04:51 AM.

13. Everything comes out correctly for me using the 5.03% you see naked:

1. Agility from gear = 22. The conversion factor for this is 0.0192/1.15 per the 3.2 changes. This gives you 22*0.0192/1.15 = 0.3673 % dodge from agility pre DR

2. You have 12.31% dodge from dodge rating pre DR

3. You have 5.64% dodge from defense pre DR

Your sum dodge pre DR is 0.3673 + 12.31 + 5.64 = 18.3173% total dodge pre DR

Running that through the DR equation gives 15.7386% dodge post DR.

I am guessing you aren't calculting your dodge from agility from gear? That's around a .367% difference before DR is accounted for.

15.7386 + 5 + 5.03 = 25.7686% dodge, or 25.77% on your character sheet.

I am not sure what math you are running, but everything comes out ok on this end
Last edited by jere; 08-11-2009 at 12:05 PM.

14. New Registrant
Join Date
Aug 2009
Posts
2
Thank you very much, adjusting for the change in agility it works out now. But still I am confused about the 5.03% base dodge. How do you calculate that? Or is it an arbitrary value?

15. Originally Posted by fjsuarez
Thank you very much, adjusting for the change in agility it works out now. But still I am confused about the 5.03% base dodge. How do you calculate that? Or is it an arbitrary value?
You cannot calculate it because:

naked_dodge = dodge_from_naked_agility + base_dodge.

While you can calculate dodge_from_naked_agility, base_dodge has no "calculation". It is that it is. Just like base health for a particular class is X, base dodge for a particular class is Y. Blizzard picked those values for some reason, but we don't know why.

16. New Registrant
Join Date
May 2009
Posts
4
WoW -> Patch Notes -> Current Patch Notes

Since the Changes in 3.2 to Dodge Rating and Parry Rating.

Dodge Rating: The amount of dodge rating required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply.

Parry Rating: The amount of parry rating required per percentage of parry has been reduced by 8%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply. Parry still diminishes more quickly than dodge.

I would like to just Double check on the topic of:

Gemming for Avoidance

The Diminishing on Parry hasn't changed, so after 540 DEF, you should not Gem for Parry

But

Should you NOW not gem for Dodge also, but instead just gem for Straight Defense?
Last edited by Doombringer; 08-14-2009 at 12:54 PM.

17. New Registrant
Join Date
Aug 2009
Posts
2
Originally Posted by Doombringer
WoW -> Patch Notes -> Current Patch Notes

Since the Changes in 3.2 to Dodge Rating and Parry Rating.

Dodge Rating: The amount of dodge rating required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply.

Parry Rating: The amount of parry rating required per percentage of parry has been reduced by 8%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply. Parry still diminishes more quickly than dodge.

I would like to just Double check on the topic of:

Gemming for Avoidance

The Diminishing on Parry hasn't changed, so after 540 DEF, you should not Gem for Parry

But

Should you NOW not gem for Dodge also, but instead just gem for Straight Defense?
Why should you not gem for parry? Its 1:1 with dodge now according to blizz... What is the diminishing on parry and dodge? I just regemmed all my gear to dodge/parry for the most part, trying to be more of an avoidance tank then a stam stacked tank..

18. Nono, dodge and parry now have the same conversion before diminishing returns, at about 45 rating to 1% pre-diminishing returns. Parry still hits its diminishing returns far faster than dodge, as shown in Post 29

Parry is now better than it was, but it is still inferior to dodge. There is, however, a point where adding parry is (briefly) better than dodge. That point is when you have more than 1.88 times your parry rating in dodge rating. So, if you have 100 parry rating and 190 dodge rating, then adding 20 parry rating will net you more avoidance than adding 20 dodge rating. Of course, once you've added that 20 parry rating, 1.88 times that 120 parry rating is 225.6, so you're now adding dodge rating again for a while. Because of this, gemming parry is probably not worth your while even still, just because it's a pain in the ass to keep all that balanced. As soon as you swap a piece of gear around for a fight, your whole "parry balance" will get thrown away.

It's still not a very good idea to try and be an "avoidance tank" anyway.

19. Well the ratio of 1.875 more applies do "dodge affected by DR" compared to "parry affected by DR". Not the ratings specifically, though they obviously contribute to those values.

The general equation for paladins/warriors is *approximately*:
(character_sheet_dodge-10%)/(character_sheet_parry-10%)

The general equation for deathknights is "dodge is always better".

20. Thanks, Jere, I didn't know the exact math that people had worked. I'll include this in the initial posts later!