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Thread: Diminishing Returns - Avoidance

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forklift View Post
    By the way, here's the excel file: http://ancalimohtar.googlepages.com/AvoidanceDR.xlsx

    Put your current stats on the left orange cells, the additional rating on the right orange cells, and it'll help you determine what the net change is in the bottom yellow cells--I use it to choose between and rank different pieces, and also to just find out what 10 rating of each of the different stats come out to be so I know the weight to assign to each when deciding.

    Edit: This assumes combat against a level 80, however, and also assumes you have 5/5 in both the parry and the dodge talent, and that you're not a night elf.
    I made a spreadsheet too - then I downloaded the TankPoints mod which implements the same formula and comes up with the exact same result. The calculator (/tp calc) it great for figuring gear "what if" scenarios

  2. #62
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    Yeah I have TP. The problems with using TP's calculator are that 1) you can't put in different starting values from what you have on right there, and 2) you can't use it unless you're logged into your character. I just want a simply excel file to mess around with while I've got wowhead open, checking out some possibilities down the line.

  3. #63
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    Hi there. Just trying to make sure I have my head around DR... Few quick questions: Using dodge as my example.:

    1. My Naked Dodge percentage at level 80 is 10% according to the wow interface. 5% of that comes from Anticipation.

    a. Where does the other 5% come from? I assumed naked defense and dodge. So I did the maths.
    Naked Agility : 113 * 0.01360 = 1.5368% dodge
    Naked Defense: 400/4.9185 = 81.32(skill) , 81.32 * 0.04 = 3.2538%
    3.2538 + 1.5368 = 4.7906%.
    Shouldn't the wow interface show my naked dodge as 9.79 or 9.8% instead of 10? It's normally capable of showing that level of precision. Is it rounding up to 10% or am I shtoopid?

    b. When trying to calculate diminishing returns, the only value not subject to DR is the 5% from talents? Naked agility and defense are subject to DR - is this correct?

    Thank you in advance for the clarification.

  4. #64
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    Your basic 400 defense for being level 80 is never calculated into DR, only defense gained from gear (this is noted in post #2). If you have 10% dodge when naked and get 5% from Anticipation, your naked dodge chance is 5%.
    Got a question? Try here: Evil Empire Guides and here: Tankspot Guides and Articles Library first!

  5. #65
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    Err 15%?

  6. #66
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    No, if your character sheet says Dodge: 10% when you are naked and you have 5/5 Anticipation, then your naked dodge chance is 10% - 5% = 5%
    Got a question? Try here: Evil Empire Guides and here: Tankspot Guides and Articles Library first!

  7. #67
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    It can't be said enough, but Thank you all so much for the effort in providing the tanking community with this much valued information. I would also like to thank Whitetooth for his work on RatingBuster which is a great addon and I HIGHLY reccommend it to anyone.

    As difficult as it is for me to wrap my head around this(to me) very complex math, I depend on RatingBuster to help me in my gearing decisions.
    My question is if it indeed does take into consideration the diminishing returns as a warrior.

    I know it was mentioned earlier, but couldn't tell if it was adressed as being a great tool to determine values for before, or after diminshing returns.

  8. #68
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    Ugh! if only i'd read this b4 socketing 3 dragon's eye with 27parry!!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    The basic problem is that the content doesn't warrant worrying about avoidance at all. What you're seeing is a side effect of prioritising other stats over avoidance. If you look at the gear, the pieces that happen to have parry on them are best in slot (or close to it). You're getting it just because it's there, not because you go out of your way to get it.
    Okay, so I'm looking over my gear this week, and noticed that hey, a LOT of my gear has +Parry on it. And I haven't focused on it at all. It just happened. In the gear spreadsheet I use, I value Dodge to Parry at 8 to 10.

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    But like you said, many of the BEST pieces are loaded with Parry. And many of the alternative gear of the same level has BLOCK RATING on it! My thought is Parry is not as good as other avoidance, but at least it IS avoidance. I'd much rather have Parry than Block Rating.

    So it's not that simple to just say, okay, let's AVOID Parry gear. Instead I'll take the piece with the highest Armor, Stamina, Defense, and Dodge.... and run like hell from those horrible Parry pieces. Because your choices are very very limited, and because the pieces WITHOUT Parry... probably have Block Rating or Expertise/Hit instead of Parry, neither of which are going to help a warrior survive tanking Sartharian w/ 3 drakes.

    As an example, look at the top current chestpieces in the game of equal level (gemming w/ 24 stam blue, 8dodge/12 stam red, 8def/12 stam yellow)...

    Dragonstorm Breastplate...............2298 Armor - 100 Strength - 160 Stamina - 52 Defense - 45 Dodge - 58 Parry
    Breastplate of Tormented Rage......2298 Armor - 84 Strength - 150 Stamina - 58 Defense - 72 Dodge - 36 Hit
    Valorous Dreadnaught Breatplate....2298 Armor - 92 Strength - 151 Stamina - 60 Defense - 58 Dodge - 45 Block Rating
    Chestguard of the Exhausted.........2298 Armor - 84 Strength - 159 Stamina - 83 Defense - 49 Parry - 39 Block Rating

    Which one is the best for survivability? The one with the most Parry on it... Dragonstorm Breastplate. Not because it has Parry. But because it has Parry instead of Block Rating or Expertise/Hit. And the same is true for majority of the other slots, including neckpiece, shoulders, bracers, gloves, belt, boots, ring, weapon, and shield.
    Last edited by Kerg; 03-31-2009 at 03:58 PM.

  10. #70
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    Errors in your DR calc's for Miss

    I believe your Miss DR Calculations are no longer accurate as of 3.1.0

    Using your formula I get very different numbers than my char sheet.
    As far as I'm aware the Miss value presented on the char sheet is ultimately correct, with the only adjustment being -0.6% if you're dealing with a boss type mob.

    These values are taken from my 80 orc DK, without rune of the stoneskin gargoyle on, since that the 1% miss gained from that is immune to DR's (as i've confirmed with testing)

    With sheer defense rating here are some of the numbers I had on my char sheet
    Defense Rating - Miss%
    568 4.6
    633 5.12
    602 4.88
    537 4.36
    468 3.8
    436 3.52
    351 2.84
    420 3.4

    See if your miss formula can give correct values for miss on this data, I dont believe it can.

    My solution to make your formula work was to solve for a new value of the constant K, and 1/c

    Given the above data, I get k = 1.003138066
    and 1/c = 0.0002820
    aka c = 3546.

    It doesnt make sense that the miss cap would be 3546, but thats what the data would indicate, per solving the formula.

    This leads me to believe that the formula is no longer accurate. Though by plugging in my new values for the constants, the formula does work 99.9999% accurately.

    Can I get some others to check this out?
    Is there a new formula I should be looking at?

  11. #71
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    bobo, the miss value presented in the character pane is undiminished and non-final. The game does not provide to the player a final miss value.

  12. #72
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    I've gotten real interested in the math aspect of these diminishing returns. I understand how the formula ((1/c) = (k/A)) works, but I don't understand why some of the values are what they are. For example, what's the significance of (c) and (k)? Why does Blizzard use those numbers and why is this formula the way it is?

    I understand that these are really open-ended questions, but I never got around to re-attempting Calculus after dropping it in college.

  13. #73
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    Problem with the Warrior Dodge DR calculation.
    I am currently making a spreadsheet for gear comparison and I've stumbled upon a problem. I've used the Dodge DR calculation, but I am getting some off-values. For instance, after using the formula for my current dodge on my warrior, it gave me 25.06% dodge, but according to armory, I am at 25.03%.

    Parry is exactly the same, and the value for my block is 0.01% too high.(28.75 instead of 28.74). Is it because I am not using enough decimals or did the value really slightly change since 3.1.0?

    EDIT for the block, if calculating with 16.39 from RatingBuster, you get wrong values, while 16.40 from some post I found here seem to be giving proper values after switching gears around.

  14. #74
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    Try running the calcs with 6 places behind the decimal (to match the Cd values in precision). I was getting pretty much what your character sheet says.

    I would doubt it if they changed the values only so much as to make those size of changes (hundreths of a percent) honestly. Probably just a precision issue.

  15. #75
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    I just redid it and it still gives me wrong values for dodge only.1

    =1/((0.956/(Avoidance from Def rating+Avoidance from Dodge+Avoidance from Agility))+1/C_D)
    I am using 1/C_d = 0.0113469999853964
    Dodge rating / 39.34799 = % of dodge
    Agility * 0.0136 = % of dodge
    Round Down (Def rating * 4.9185) * 0.04 = more % of dodge (If it's not rounded down and used as a decimal value, it will give fictive dodge that is NOT applied.)

    So, I really don't get it.

    Edit: here is a download link for it, made it pretty quickly, tell me if you find anything that is wrong in there.

    Download Link: http://uploading.com/files/XUXBTA5N/...V.1.0.ods.html
    Last edited by Carmaine; 05-21-2009 at 08:56 AM.

  16. #76
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    Are you splitting your agility up? Part of it isn't affected by DR (111) and part of it is (22).

  17. #77
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    I am only taking the agility that is over my naked agi (in this case, it's only 22). On that, I apply 22*0.0136.

    I thought the Agi that is from naked gave no dodge :/

    EDIT: Oh god, just noticed MANY calc mistake, currently rereading it. But this is in the gear comparison part, not the base calc part.
    Last edited by Carmaine; 05-21-2009 at 09:42 AM.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmaine View Post
    I am only taking the agility that is over my naked agi (in this case, it's only 22). On that, I apply 22*0.0136.

    I thought the Agi that is from naked gave no dodge :/

    EDIT: Oh god, just noticed MANY calc mistake, currently rereading it. But this is in the gear comparison part, not the base calc part.
    Naked agility goes into your naked dodge (not affected by DR):

    Naked_Dodge = Base_Dodge + Naked_Agil*Agil_coeff

  19. #79
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    But then that would mean that I am ignoring dodge from somewhere, increasing my theoretical dodge even higher, which would make it way more off than just 0.03% in difference :/.

    EDIT: From what I understood, naked agility gives no dodge, only the agility from gear.
    Last edited by Carmaine; 05-21-2009 at 10:19 AM.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carmaine View Post
    But then that would mean that I am ignoring dodge from somewhere, increasing my theoretical dodge even higher, which would make it way more off than just 0.03% in difference :/.
    Why is that? What other dodge are you ignoring?

    EDIT: From what I understood, naked agility gives no dodge, only the agility from gear.
    Naked agility provides dodge not affected by DR that is added to your base dodge (which is also not affected by DR).

    From Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks

    Base Dodge = 3.463600
    Agi/dodge => 73.529412
    Dodge_rating => 39.347988

    Naked agility = 111 => 111/73.529412 = 1.509600% dodge

    From your armory:
    159 Defense Skill => 159*0.04 = 6.360000% dodge
    22 Agil from gear => 22/73.529412 = 0.299200% dodge
    421 dodge rating => 421/39.347988 = 10.699403% dodge

    Not affected by DR:
    Base_dodge + Naked_Agil_dodge+anticipation:
    3.463600 + 1.509600 + 5 = 9.973200% dodge not affected by DR

    Affected by DR:
    def_dodge + dge_rating_dodge+extra_agil_dodge:
    6.360000 + 10.699403 + 0.299200 = 17.358603 before DR
    DR: 1/(1/88.129021 + 0.956/17.358603) = 15.055580% dodge after DR

    15.055580 + 9.973200 = 25.02878% dodge

    This rounds to 25.03% dodge

    This is what shows on your character sheet on the armory.
    Last edited by jere; 05-21-2009 at 11:25 AM.

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