# Thread: Diminishing Returns - Avoidance

1. No problem.

As a note, the reason I say *approximately* in the warrior / paladin equation is that "-10%" for the dodge side varies from race to race due to naked agility, but all of them are pretty close to 10% (5% from anticipation + *about* 5% from naked dodge). The parry side is good cause paladins and warriors get exactly 10% non DR parry (5% deflection and 5% base).

2. Luj
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## Small error

Hello,

I've tried to follow the formulas presented here as carefully as possible in order to find my information. I keep getting small (<0.08%) errors, though, which leads me to believe that either the constants used in the formulas are incorrect (possible) or that I am making some small error (likely). I'd greatly appreciate it if somebody could read over my work and comment. Thank you.

First, my stats:
10% dodge and parry when naked (as seen in the character tooltip)
48 agility from gear ("green" agility)
711 defense rating (tooltip says 5.76% miss)
427 dodge rating (tooltip says 23.89% dodge)
177 parry rating (tooltip says 18.32% parry)

Now, after adding in the base 5% chance to miss, I should get a total avoidance of 52.97% (I'm just adding the tooltip percentages), shouldn't I?

Ok, so let's go throught the calculations I did using the formulas next.

Parry = (u_p * 47.003525) / (u_p + 0.956 * 47.003525)
u_p = (177 / 45.25019) + (711 / 122.9625)
so Parry = 18.34067553254883 (~0.02% off from tooltip)

Dodge = (u_d * 88.129021) / (u_d + 0.956 * 88.129021)
u_d = (427 / 45.25019) + (711 / 122.9625) + (48 * 0.0118)
so Dodge = 23.906167676679544 (~0.01% away from tooltip)

Miss = 5 + (u_f * 16) / (u_f + 0.956 * 16)
u_f = (711 / 122.9625)
so Miss = 9.389169308039125 (>1.0% away from what I think it is?)

Together, then, the formulas say I should have 51.6360% total avoidance after diminishing returns.

-L

3. you are not treating defense correctly. Remember that defense is awarded in integer chunks. Taking 711/122.9625 by itself will give you slightly off numbers. Just take what the character sheet tells you for it (5.76% in your case). I ran the numbers and came out with exactly what your character sheet says you should have.

************************************************** **************

As an example for your dodge:

113 naked agility => 1.3334 dodge
base dodge (from EJ) => 3.664 dodge
---------------
naked dodge => 4.9974% dodge
talents => 5% dodge
------------------
9.9974% nonDR dodge

48 agility from gear => 0.5664 dodge pre DR
+9.44% dodge from dodge rating
+5.76% dodge from defense
---------------------------
15.7664% DR'able dodge

After DR:
13.8923

23.8897 => 23.89 rounded to two decimal places.

Parry look similar.
Last edited by jere; 08-30-2009 at 04:15 PM.

4. Zephryus
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A little help here plez I'm not sure where do I put my values in the equation shown below? and do I subtract the 10% or does the formula do that?
So
rry to be a NOOB but I just want to be clear on its usage LOL )
Thanks Guys Great work
Zephryus

Take your total values for dodge and parry from the character sheet. From there, your optimal balance between dodge rating and parry rating is
(character_sheet_dodge-10%)/(character_sheet_parry-10%) = 1.88

5. Established Registrant
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Originally Posted by siubosn
and do I subtract the 10% or does the formula do that?

Looks like the formula is doing the subtractions for you.

6. Zephryus
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ok thanks for that info, but where do i insert my info from my character sheet?

Zephryus

7. Newb Registrant
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I think I have everything here digested however in the OP example for dodge:

1d) Convert agility to base dodge chance: 261 * 0.01360 = 3.5496%

Shouldnt the .01360 be .0118? for the warrior dodgge per agility base? Or am I missing something here

8. no the .01360 is correct.

currently it takes 73.52 agility to equal 1% dodge.
1/73.52 = .01360

so multiplying your agility by .01360 is equivalent to dividing your agility by 73.52. semantics.

9. Cannon Fodder
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Can someone work out what gems I should swap around please, I've been trying myself and keep stuffing it up some how.

Defense: 546 (Defense Rating 719 (+146 Defense))
(Increases chance to Dodge, Block, Parry by 5.84%)
Dodge: 28.18% (Dodge Rating of 703 adds 15.54%)
Parry: 20.34% (Parry Rating of 309 adds 6.83%)
Block: 21.39% (Block Rating of 91 adds 5.55%, Your Block stops 1335 Damage)
Agility: 157 (113 + 44)

This is with all my Tank gear on and no buffs.
My Armory

10. Newb Registrant
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Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma
no the .01360 is correct.

currently it takes 73.52 agility to equal 1% dodge.
1/73.52 = .01360

so multiplying your agility by .01360 is equivalent to dividing your agility by 73.52. semantics.
Ok so then his chart is incorrect that has the agility to dodge? Sorry not trying to nit pick as its an amazing amount of work. Just trying to make sure I have everything understood properly.

11. Hrm, I'd warrant that Satrina tested the number before he posted that it was valid for 3.2 so I'd venture that his .0118 is infact more accurate. I was going by Wowwiki's info of agility per dodge, and it's possible that number has changed. I apologize.

12. Whitetooth over at EJ has it listed as 0.0118 for patch 3.2 (where they changed the conversions):
Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks

EDIT:
And 0.0136/1.15 = 0.0118, so the 0.0118 seems to be correct.

13. Roger that, I fail for relying on Wowwiki.

14. New Registrant
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I'm not sure if this is posted somewhere else, but I was just wondering how things change with the -20% dodge debuff in ICC. (ie stack more dodge, dont worry about it, etc)

Thanks!

15. nothing changes, the DRs are applied before the -20% so treat your gear exactly the same as outside as inside ICC.

16. New Registrant
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OK question for you all on dk's and avoidance. right now i have gemmed parry/stamina mostly. with some hit tossed in to get me to my caps and such my stats without food are as followed

HP 36,331
armor 26851
def 562
dodge 28.73%
parry 25.04%

this is in frost pres. no horn on no buffs.
my question is mainly. should i regem back to dodge with the icc debuff? so i not gem any avoidance and go straight stamina.
here is a link to my armory if there is anything else u need
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...52&cn=Kaminari

just trying to find the best way to go to be the most effective i can be, thanks in advance for any info.

17. dodge, almost always provides more avoidance even post dr, even post -20% than parry because of the way DR works. ESPECIALLY with DKS who get a lot of parry already from their str->parry conversion. Parry, is a good stat when it comes in gear, it is NOT a good stat to gem for.

18. New Registrant
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ok dodge is always the way i went before till i have multipule ppl yell at me about it. worth to gem the dodge over pure sta? i know dks are avoidance based just not sure where the breaking point is to say ok 65 percent avoidance... go stamina, or if there is even a point where u should break

19. right now, in ICC< i'd say the stam route is still the best you can do because of how hard bosses hit, and the nature of fights. giving a nice buffer for your healers to survive more hits is the way to go, especially with fights like festergut at 2-3 inhales.

20. New Registrant
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good deal. the biggest reason i was doing the dodge/sta purple was to split it down the middle still get some sta while keeping avoidance high and getting the +9 sta or +6sta socket bonus. the way i looked at it was gain some dodge and get 21 stamina instead of 30.

thanx for the info man i do appreciate it