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Thread: Diminishing Returns - Avoidance

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by elusive View Post
    First let me say this helped me figure things out quite a considerable amount, thank you.
    My trouble however lies when I attempted to run your calculations myself, I'll admit that it could be a mistake with my maths but I rechecked it as best I can with identical results or perhaps I've mistaken some of the explanation.

    My Paladin, 80th level has 699 def rating, 127 dodge rating and 22 agility from gear. These being the stats used in the calculations of dodge chance.
    According to your information this results in 13.79% dodge after diminishing returns, the trouble lies in that according to my in-game character screen I have 18.73% dodge (before diminishing returns).

    Now I know that 5% of that is from the Anticipation talent, but how is my in-game before diminishing returns statistic lower than the result of calculating it using your notes?
    Surely it should be the other way around?
    No, I think you are doing something screwy with your calculation. I get something like 9.33% dodge subject to diminishing returns, 8.79% after. Add in 10.04% from anticipation, base dodge, and base agility (none subject to DR) and you get 18.83% for your character sheet dodge %, which is pretty close I'd say, considering defense rating is rounded to defense skill and I rounded some of the other numbers. The final % on your character sheet is AFTER DR, the only number before DR is the % given in the tooltip.

  2. #42
    Ok to bring it down abit for some ground rules about what avoidances to stack.

    Defense vs Dodge:
    The value of defense for mitigation is very close to that of dodge. Defense will give slightly less avoidance then dodge but it will give you block and crit, along with a better kind of avoidance*.
    So defense will be slightly better then dodge if you can use block rating or if you need more to reach uncritable.
    Dodge will be slightly better if you cant use block rating and well above uncritable (so it doesn't cause problems when swapping gear)

    *Better kind of avoidance in the sence that parry gives parry haste and miss works from behind and while stunned/feared.

    Dodge vs Parry:
    With talents and base values you should have 10% dodge and 10% parry, atleast for warrior/pala these are not included in diminishing returns.
    So for it to be worth it gemming for parry you will need to have more
    10% parry: you need more then 20% dodge. (base)
    15.6% parry you need more then 31.2% dodge. (uncrittable)
    17.5% parry, you need more then 35% dodge. (normal stats)
    20% parry, you need more then 40% dodge. (high stats)

    And the formula:
    Parry is worh more then dodge if:
    2x Dodge% in tooltip > parry% in tooltip

    As you can see it's highly unlikely that you will ever care more for parry then dodge.
    Note that doesn't mean that parry is a bad or wasted stat in any way on an item, due to the stat allocation on items having defense, dodge and parry on an item will always be better then just defense and dodge.

  3. #43
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    Diminishing Returns and weights.

    Hi everyone.
    I've made up a spreadsheet to try and determine stat weights. I'll post it a bit later.
    I am generating weights based on the amount of rating required to gain 1% additional avoidance. I figure that step size is small enough that it will remain somewhat accurate. Everything works fine except for defense, I'm getting an increasing returns effect which means I'm not using the right equation or modelling for defense weighting.

    What I did, is i took the 1/lambda = 1/c + k/A, and I solved for lambda getting
    lambda = c*A/(A+ck)
    Then to find weights i used
    Lambda(A+x) = Lambda(A)+1, where the left side is avoidance + additional rating, and the right side is previous avoidance +1%.
    After solving for x, that is the amount of raw avoidance required to gain 1%, and i then convert it back into a rating.

    Obviously defense can't be done exactly the same way due to diminishing returns on both parry and dodge (not to mention there is no modelling of miss yet, but I'm just trying to get a dodge/parry # in there).
    So what I did
    Lambda_Parry(A_p + x) + Lambra_Dodge(A_d + x) = Lambda_Parry(A_p) + Lambda_Dodge(A_d) + 1
    A_p and A_d are the raw avoidance in parry and dodge respectively.

    I end up with x = k^2*Cd*Cp+k*(Ad*Cp+Ap*Cd)+Ad*Ap/(2K*Cp*Cd+Ap*Cd+Ad*Cp)
    I used an equation solver to get this part.

    So basically, the issue i'm having is that x is showing increasing returns, which means its wrong. Does anyone know if my mistake is in the modelling of defense with lambda_P+Lambda_D?

    For entertainment, the first form of the spreadsheet I made. Its not done yet (obviously) but there will be graphs and the like on here later.
    http://netfiles.uiuc.edu/mantone2/sh...ingReturns.xls

    No macros, standard office spreadsheet format.
    Any comments or the like would be appreciated, thanks.
    Last edited by Enthalpy; 12-16-2008 at 12:05 PM.

  4. #44
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    So all this could explain why rawr is trying to fix me up with defense gems/gear before agility as a druid tank? I think I have something like 51 defense rating 830 agility and 150 dodge.

    Also valueing dodge rating before strict agility made me wonder when you needed less than 15 agility to get 1% dodge but a massive 19 dodge to get a whole percent of it.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    - Don't bother with parry rating (unless the item itself is better than what you have already)
    - Do not gem for parry. Ever.
    Even as a DK I'm not supposed to gem for parry or "bother with parry rating"? Or was this post made before the Death Knights existed? I started WoW again not to long ago and i have an 80 DK frost tank and a warrior tank friend turned me on to this site.

  6. #46
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    from the intial post:

    Code:
    Deathknight	Dodge	88.129021	0.011347
    Deathknight	Parry	47.003525	0.021275
    he includes deathknights, and yes you do not want to stack parry. why? because you're diminishing point is at the same place as warriors, relatively low. That means once you start stacking it (you'll automatically get it from str anyways so why go for gear with it as well?) you'll start hitting higher/harder DRs on it quickly.

    to visualize, imagine a curve that gets very very steep very very quickly. THAT is Parry.

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  7. #47
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    So according to all these theories, best avoidance is gotten by having much more dodge than parry, given the very exponential diminishing returns on parry as apposed to dodge.
    Funny thing, I looked up a couple of the best tanks I've heard of, Ciderhelm and Kungen. They have about same ammount of parry and dodge. What gives ?
    I guess it can be said that the itemization available is what causes this. Well if parry is so terrible when it comes to diminishing returns, why would blizz add same ammount of parry as dodge to highest lvl tanking items ?

  8. #48
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    The basic problem is that the content doesn't warrant worrying about avoidance at all. What you're seeing is a side effect of prioritising other stats over avoidance. If you look at the gear, the pieces that happen to have parry on them are best in slot (or close to it). You're getting it just because it's there, not because you go out of your way to get it.
    Last edited by Satrina; 01-30-2009 at 10:40 AM.
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  9. #49
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    Plus, just the way a lot of gear is itemized. Some of the best items just happen to have parry on them instead of dodge. I think it's part of their suboptimal itemization plan so they can scale up to better designed gear in later instances.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    The basic problem is that the content doesn't warrant worrying about avoidance at all.
    While I agree completely with what Satrina has said, one additional explanation may do with rage generation. If you dodge an attack, you don't generate any rage. When you parry, you do. Certainly, this is not an issue in raids...but perhaps in 5-man content where rage may not be as plentiful.

  11. #51
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    Im quite suprised parry is being marked as so inferior to dodge in original post. Im aware its general avoidance guide, but i would like to know your opinions on my case

    As a DK i specialized myself into caster tanking. After patch 3.0.8 i got Gargolye and defense sigil, just to be uncritable and socketed rest of my gear only with parry and stamina

    With innate high DK parry (from strenght) and Blade Barrier im sitting at about 28% parry (my guild does 10man only) and it goes very well with spell deflection and gives me roughly extra 10% migitation on direct spells when im raid beefed.

    My build is Acclimation/Spell deflection for best results in caster type tanking
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darvenof View Post
    While I agree completely with what Satrina has said, one additional explanation may do with rage generation. If you dodge an attack, you don't generate any rage. When you parry, you do. Certainly, this is not an issue in raids...but perhaps in 5-man content where rage may not be as plentiful.
    This is not true. You do *not* gain rage from parrying an attack. When you parry, your next melee swing is hasted, which if not a heroic strike will give you rage, but the Parry mechanic itself does not give you rage. I don't know where this rumor was ever started but its not true.
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  13. #53
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    This is not true. You do *not* gain rage from parrying an attack. When you parry, your next melee swing is hasted, which if not a heroic strike will give you rage, but the Parry mechanic itself does not give you rage. I don't know where this rumor was ever started but its not true.
    Yes, quite right. I stand corrected. The parry in-and-of-itself, does not generate rage. The next swing coming quicker perhaps does generate additional rage when compared to having dodged that attack and following with a normal speed swing...but the differences should be minimal. Mea culpa! (That's what I get for thinking I have something to add to Satrina's post). I'll take my shield and go home now.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragefury View Post
    With innate high DK parry (from strenght) and Blade Barrier im sitting at about 28% parry (my guild does 10man only) and it goes very well with spell deflection and gives me roughly extra 10% migitation on direct spells when im raid beefed.

    My build is Acclimation/Spell deflection for best results in caster type tanking
    Not terribly familiar with Spell Deflection, but the tooltip says direct damage spells. I would assume in that case it doesn't apply to aoes and dots.

    If that's the case, then a large amount of the spell damage you'll see doesn't even get mitigated. Add in the fact that the large majority of damage you'll see is physical and that you only get 3% of that limited mitigation for every 10% of parry, I'd think you'd still want to stick with dodge.

  15. #55
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    My point was to migitate as much spelldmg as I can, thats why Spell Deflection/Acclimation. Dodge doesnt help on caster bosses at all, their melee is always kek. Except of dragons ofc.

    Question is if to socket for parry and its limited value with spell deflection, or go straight for stamina. Im gonna test how much it worth lets say with with Gotthik
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  16. #56
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    I'm not super familiar with the deathknight mechanics, but let's see. As I understand it, a deathknight gets 25% of their strength as parry rating. To me this implies that it's subject to diminishing returns since it's rating and not straight up parry chance. So, you're getting all the parry from defense, plus whatever from strength. If you have 1000 strength, that's 250 parry rating. Combine defense and strength and whatever parry you get from gear puts you pretty high up the diminishing returns curve. At that point, adding parry through gems is going to be hitting pretty severe DR. You didn't log in your tanking gear, so I can't see what your parry would be at to play with numbers. Now if the parry rating you gain from strength is not subject to DR, that's a whole different story.

    The big problem you're going to have is that right now you could be gemming for spirit and tank Gothik without your healers noticing. In a fight that's hard, the question is, is even a highly diminished amount of parry worth it for that extra fraction chance of activating deflection?

    Someone who knows deathknight mechanics better than I can probably give a better answer.
    Last edited by Satrina; 02-04-2009 at 11:27 PM.
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  17. #57
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    Thanks Satrina, unfortunately i cant link armory as my toon is geared and talented for dps atm, raid buffed 29-30% parry due to Blade Barrier (10% undiminished talent). So averrage it would be 10% migitation for direct spells. I have been thinking about it and it really seems not as big addition as lets say 3 points Acclimation. As blizz already said they are buffing Blood of North in 3.1 to be actually useful, its probabaly time to change my tank build

    Sry for the offtopic
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    I'm not super familiar with the deathknight mechanics, but let's see. As I understand it, a deathknight gets 25% of their strength as parry rating. To me this implies that it's subject to diminishing returns since it's rating and not straight up parry chance.
    This is what I concluded from playing with the numbers myself and looking at the stats in-game. When wearing no gear, 25% of your strength is converted to parry rating, which is subject to DR. This can be verified by taking off all your gear and verifying that your parry rating is greater than 0.

    A consequence of this is that for a def-capped DK tank, additional dodge rating is preferable to additional parry rating, as your parry rating will be affected by your high strength and subject higher DP penalties.

    I did however notice that the 25 defense from stoneskin gargoyle is not subject to DR - this is easy to verify, just equip a weapon with the rune and no other stats that increase parry, and watch it go up exactly 1%.

  19. #59
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    I've made a spreadsheet to figure out exactly what the marginal avoidance of dodge, defense, and parry ratings are given my current stats. I could post it if people express an interest.

    Satrina, why is that chart so "zoomed out"? Why would anyone care what OVER 9000! dodge rating gives? Can you post a chart with, like, relevant values? Dodge/defense/parry ratings below, say, 1000?

  20. #60
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    By the way, here's the excel file: http://ancalimohtar.googlepages.com/AvoidanceDR.xlsx

    Put your current stats on the left orange cells, the additional rating on the right orange cells, and it'll help you determine what the net change is in the bottom yellow cells--I use it to choose between and rank different pieces, and also to just find out what 10 rating of each of the different stats come out to be so I know the weight to assign to each when deciding.

    Edit: This assumes combat against a level 80, however, and also assumes you have 5/5 in both the parry and the dodge talent, and that you're not a night elf.

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