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Thread: (Before Diminishing Returns)

  1. #1

    (Before Diminishing Returns)

    Dodge/defense/parry are now subject to diminishing returns. Highlight the tooltip while on Beta and it says it under the amount.

  2. #2
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    Uh-oh.....

    Eh, I hope this has to do with 'Evasion tanking' type scenarios where some classes like rogues can achieve 100% avoidance and effectively tank raid bosses by never being hit and I hope the DR's kick in there at those ridiculous levels.

  3. #3
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    More 'EH vs Avoidance' bickering on the way, thanks to this change?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by phaze View Post
    More 'EH vs Avoidance' bickering on the way, thanks to this change?
    More mindnumbing number crunching on deciding which piece of gear is best to use. This time, we get to use relative numbers rather then static. Fun ><

  5. #5
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    So question is then, how does it work? Does it work on total avoidance? Or does it work on each stat respectivelly to hinder dodge stacking?

    I hope it's still possible to get to 102.4% avoidance+block though, need that tiger from ZG.

  6. #6
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    Initial crunching from maintankadin/EJ seems to indicate that every 100 dodge rating you get gives you 95% of the dodge the last 100 rating gave you.

    As for why - to avoid another Sunwell Radiance scenario.

  7. #7
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    Hmm. The implication here is that avoidance stats will now scale linearly instead of super-linearly. If we assume only a single type of avoidance, going from 0% to 5% avoidance gets you from 100% to 95% chance to be hit. Gaining 95% of the next 5% gives you another 4.75% chance to avoid, putting you at 90.25% chance to be hit.

    In other words, each 100 rating (assuming only one kind of avoidance) is exactly as good as the previous <n> rating for reducing incoming damage, rather than being better.

    If it's always 100 rating, then that's potentially a problem: You'll actually get diminishing returns at 80, since 100 rating gives 2.54% dodge, for example. So the next 100 rating gives only a 2.46% reduction in the chance to be hit compared to the first 100 rating which gave 2.54% reduction, and so on.

    However, at level 70 the conversion is 5.28% per 100 points of dodge, so... I'm going to have to look for that research being done to see where the testing is being done. At the level 70 amounts, a 95% reduction per 100 would be about right. At the level 80 amounts, a 5% reduction per 200 would be about right (to preserve linear behavior instead of sub- or super-linear.)

    On the other hand, they may *want* it sub-linear, since you can still stack multiple kinds of avoidance without interfering with each other(?) Hard to say.

    In any case, probably a good thing over-all, to keep avoidance from being super powerful.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  8. #8
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    That also allows them to put more avoidance on gear without making unhittable tanks, and also gives a sense to parry gems.
    Worlde - Prot Paladin
    Darkworldie - Tank DW Frost DK
    Uord - Prot Warrior
    Huordie - Feral / Resto Druid

  9. #9
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    Don't know about parry gems, it really seems to take quite a bit of dodge rating to make it bad in comparison to parry.

  10. #10
    I had about 27% dodge last night on the PTR testing these diminishing returns and I had used my Morose trinket and instead of getting the 15.8% dodge you would get on live I got about 12%

    Which isn't too bad, this change is made for the exact reason of countering the unhittable tanking method which is completely fine IMO. If you notice though because of these changes your dodge at lower levels actually increased, mine jumped by about 2% once these changes went to the PTR.

  11. #11
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    Can't forget that losing 20 defense for 5% dodge is like a 2,5% avoidance boost

  12. #12
    That is true as well but Im refering strictly to PTR old build vs Current Build. In the old build w/ changes to our t6 itemization I lost around 32 defense and as a whole took a hit to my avoidance (most notably parry due to the t6 shoulders change) but I also lost .5% dodge

    Now in the new build I have actually gained 2% over what I currently have on live.

  13. #13
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    It does raise some interesting questions. At what point does parry become more efficient than dodge. Is the gear level even attainable? Will be curious to see how the numbers work out now with regard to eh/avoidance esp gemming/enchanting. (assuming they fix the uncritable issue)

  14. #14
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    Well, I'm not necessarily an EH fanatic, nor am I an advocate of the avoidance tank. More of a classical "everything in moderation" approach. I was looking at all the Wrath stuff and it seemed to me that they were trying to lessen the impact (and the necessity) of avoidance in encounters anyway. I've been giving block rating a serious look lately as block will be a source of rage and damage; proccing enrage and damage shield.

  15. #15
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    Well... assuming you had no parry rating to start with, and that the behavior is as I suggested (each rating is independent), parry *still* wouldn't be better until you had somewhere around 450ish dodge rating. (Off the cuff estimate.) And if you had some parry rating from gear to start with, that's just going to push the number up for when you should actually explicitly choose parry over dodge.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  16. #16
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    I mean, the diminishing returns was built into the itemization before. This was not needed.

    Before, you could stack like 30% dodge in great gear. But to get that extra 19 dodge rating to make it 31%, it took a significant amount of work to get that last piece of gear. Same thing with Stam--going from unbuffed 17k to 18k health is much harder than going from unbuffed 14k to 15k. The increasing marginal costs payed for the increasing marginal utility.

    This is just a dumb change. I mean, Stam gets more valuable as your Armor (and avoidance!) goes up. Are they going to DR stam? Armor gets better the more Stam and avoidance you have. Are they going to DR Armor?

    Dumb, dumb, dumb.

  17. #17
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    Unhittable tanks say it's not a dumb change.

    I can currently get close to 80% pure avoidance. If i regem everything for defense/dodge, i get to unhittable if potted.
    Worlde - Prot Paladin
    Darkworldie - Tank DW Frost DK
    Uord - Prot Warrior
    Huordie - Feral / Resto Druid

  18. #18
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    Great change!

    This should make instance design easier on them, which hopefully means they can spend more time refining mechaincs and adding more fun stuff to make fight more challenging instead of just making mobs hit insanely harder or add artificial methods to lower avoidance.

  19. #19
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    If the diminishing returns are as bad as what i've seen, they might as well just take all avoidance off gear completely. No use having it eat itemization points.


    It really kinda annoys me that they took alot out of the gearing game for tanks. As a tank you're not only a skill position, but a gear platform. Both are equal parts of what we enjoy about the role.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldie View Post
    Unhittable tanks say it's not a dumb change.

    I can currently get close to 80% pure avoidance. If i regem everything for defense/dodge, i get to unhittable if potted.
    That's an issue with itemization. Not an issue with base formulas. I repeat, should we apply DR to stam now?

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