The Shortcoming of Thunder Clap

[Ciderhelm]

This is a followup to the previous piece. I went through Halls of Stone and the Oculus tonight and had a chance to use the greatly-reduced damage Thunder Clap. In fairness, I can't say anything for sure, because I haven't tested the Threat, nor have I done these two instances prior to tonight for comparison... but it seems it was nerfed pretty hard. Xav's Naxxramas experience corroborates this.

The problem with Thunder Clap is that it is, practically speaking, our only proactive means of gaining aggro. It is the only way we're going to effectively pick up packs of mobs sliding past us (for instance, whelps in Violet Hold). It is the only way we're going to effectively get a foothold on a new pack of mobs coming in during a pull.

What about Shockwave and Damage Shield? I've been preaching about these abilities, but they're not proactive. Shockwave's cooldown at 20 seconds means that it is not available as often as we're pulling, unless we're being cautious; and, while Shockwave is wonderful for building threat on mobs already attacking us, it loses a whole lot of effectiveness when it's being used to pick up loose mobs. Damage Shield is, of course, a purely reactive ability, which requires we already be taking hits from targets to work against them.

The bottom line is that Thunder Clap is short of where it needs to be. With higher damage, it was relatively reliable because we knew we could focus on targets not hit by it; with it's current damage, we can't. The damage reduction also neutered our ability to push past the hard target cap Warriors have always faced -- as it was, we were able to pull multiple packs, provided we had the gear to handle it, by landing an initial Thunder Clap on the full next group.

Anyway, the issue right now is multi-pronged. Most of it, strangely, does not have to do with the damage and threat it was dealing, but with the fundamental issue of the target cap on Thunder Clap.

[Dunmail]

Be interesting to see how it effects when levelling to as it's always handy to use when grinding, as a cheap slow to get a hit & execute in, or to bunch up a few for cleaving with the weird repositions mobs often do.

Basic t6 tank gear on a laggedtofook test server with TC/ShW/Cleave/Dev& HS spam killed what I ran into pretty quickly, especially when they started bunching up with it lagging that badly they were respawning before dying.

The headscratching part that bugs me and mentioned on a few other threads is working in a spec that covers what I generally want to do as a raid MT, and despite the very useful move of it back into protection a build like this :-

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

picking up the arms threat, fury threat, and the bulk of the shinies for tanking. The actual head scratching being whether Imp TC is now worth the 3 TP's. No mention of additional threat in the tooltip so can anyone confirm if generic TC has the same threat values and 3 point TC in this build?

What I think I would miss in this build is imp BR as I'm use to popping, slamming and cranking out a few Dev/HS for instant aggro. I guess now it'd be tickle, tickle, thump bang, then rotation instead. Those 3 points tempt me now for usage in Bloodrage and Damage Shield. I kinda see vigilance useful until the raid/salv thing has been gotten use to, not to mention 5 mans. Does seem a bit strange to gimp a useful damage output to soling (which I thought they were buffing for haha dpm, not dps classes), something useful in 5 man and something handy in raid, especially if in an OT role.

[SoaD!]

Cider, did you run your tests with the TC glyph (you said no in the last post) ?

With the low number of mobs in the packs in LK instances (with some exceptions that doesn't matter IMO due to the level of these instances), does the glyph resolve the issue number of target cap ? (no matter of threat here)

I'm curious about that. If the the bigger issue is the number of target or the threat generation, the problem is different for me. And the solution(s) are also different(s).

Upgrading the number of targets could be hard as TC can become rapidly too powerfull.
Giving a little more threat can be an easier job IMO.

[manicus]

Blizzard giveth, and Blizzard taketh away.

This makes me wonder if imp tc is worth it at all, theres a lot of other options for debuffing bosses with attack speed. In its current form, the threat from thunderclap is laughable. I'd be happy with tc being a high threat move, and then glyphing it.

[Lore]

I'm hoping they revert it. It seems like, if they wanted to scale back prot Warrior DPS, there were several other ways they could do it that did not harm Warrior AOE tanking capabilities so dramatically.

[Darmon]

I'm hoping they revert it. It seems like, if they wanted to scale back prot Warrior DPS, there were several other ways they could do it that did not harm Warrior AOE tanking capabilities so dramatically.

They are already doing it (from GC on beta warrior forum).

Just so you know, we are going to lower Devastate's damage (likely through the hefty bonus crit damage). We'll compensate Prot's dps in other ways. But Devastate seems to be as much as 40% of Prot's total dps, which is a little high (Shield Slam should be on top if anything). We also don't want dps warriors to think that they're supposed to spec down and get Devastate for the dps.

[protonly]

Even with the values before it still didn't really compare to pally's consecration. I'm not saying I'd want consecration on my warrior but tclap was fine before they made the 3/3 imp tclap useless. It went very well with shockwave and aoe tanking wasn't nearly the workout it was before. Bump up the damage back to previous values and let's get warrior glyphs in the test servers now (haven't seen any yet).

[AnvilDK]

Been looking through the blue tracker on MMO-Champion site and stubled upon these two responses.

Devastate likely to get tonned down.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Thank you for showing us prot warriors love

Thunderclap talent change intentionally

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - TClap Nerf

Guess they are doing their dps balancing pass at the moment.

Here is hoping they dont go overboard.

[veneretio]

Most of it, strangely, does not have to do with the damage and threat it was dealing, but with the fundamental issue of the target cap on Thunder Clap.

1. As has already been asked, were you using non-Glyphed 4 target Thunderclap?
2. If so, would the Gylph offering you 8 targets be enough?
3. Does the model need to change to 5/10?
4. Or, are you thinking that we basically just need unlimited target Thunderclap?

[phaze]

1. As has already been asked, were you using non-Glyphed 4 target Thunderclap?
2. If so, would the Gylph offering you 8 targets be enough?
3. Does the model need to change to 5/10?
4. Or, are you thinking that we basically just need unlimited target Thunderclap?

The idea behind glyphs are: a nice boost, but not a necessity. For that reason, I dislike the reliance on a glyph in order to increase the target count.

Give TC increased targets on baseline, and change the glyph to +damage or something.

As for unlimited targets: that depends on their plans for overall tank AE threat capacity (Consecration and DnD come to mind, there are others).

As long as the tools are there to hold AE packs in place, I'll be happy. From the info presented with he latest changes, it sounds like TC is no longer keeping up?

[protonly]

If all tanks are to be equal then how can wars have our best aoe tanking ability gimped?

Shockwave is badass but you gotta aim it at stuff in front of you; tclap as cider said is great for grabbin things runnin past you or stacked all around you.

[hbombs]

I wouldn't want IMP TC to give us the AOE tanking ability that consecrate has. But I do want it to be able to hold aggro easily over healers and the ability to pick up mobs running by. Or maybe if we get enough TC's down eventually locks and mages can go AOE happy. I hope they put it back to where it was.

[protonly]

I wouldn't want IMP TC to give us the AOE tanking ability that consecrate has. But I do want it to be able to hold aggro easily over healers and the ability to pick up mobs running by. Or maybe if we get enough TC's down eventually locks and mages can go AOE happy. I hope they put it back to where it was.

/agree 100%

[SoaD!]

The idea behind glyphs are: a nice boost, but not a necessity.

I do not agree with that.
In my own opinion, yes, no profession has to be a mandatory.

But Blizzard has decided to implement it before the add-on. What wasn't the case for Jewelery at BC.
I deduce from this that it is necessary for balance, so I wish powerfull enough glyphs, like +targets on TC.

[Lyonhearrt]

Well,
I don't understand the logic of the design again. In the Beta forums, GC stated now that Devestate is going to get nerfed because its doing too much over all of a prot warriors dmg (about 40% of all dmg). This plus the TC nerf will affect prot dps overall. We were even with the nice changes in 8926 below bear dps. Now, we'll be really behind. So, our utility in raiding just went out the door. I mean at least with the prior levels of dps, we got decent rage & threat and had utility. Now, we're really reduced to single target tanking as our strength with mediocre talents for AoE tanking/off-dpsing. It has really killed the fun factor, imho. Sad.

[Halgreg]

I think it more or less comes down to what to expect in this tuning phase from Blizzard. Overall, the consistencies that I've heard in regards to tanking in general is that 1) they want to baseline tanking effectiveness equally amongst all tanking classes and 2) they want threat represented as damage.

Thing is, tanking has always been more about holding threat vs. your healers and dpsers. Due to #2, naturally when they lower damage, our threat is lowered as well which then affects our tanking effectiveness. But wait, it's not that hard to lower damage but keep our threat levels consistent. That's what they're not doing and that's why I'm slightly worried. Why didn't they just make the change from "Increase damage by 100%" to "Increase threat by 100%" instead? Damage drops, but threat stays high. With the change to 30%, damage and threat both go low, which is lame.

We need to be able to generate high threat because it lets everyone else who plays do what they enjoy in the game. Tanks can protect their team, dpsers can pew pew pew, healers can keep people alive without worrying about pulling aggro and dying themselves. Less threat means tanks have to do all kinds of frustrating tricks to hold aggro, dpsers have to sigh and hold back their damage, and healers pull aggro and die just trying to keep people alive.

In other words, I hope our threat gets adjusted to awesome levels for the sake of everyone's future happiness. The ImpTC change is a step backwards.

[Tristania]

Considering Armored to the teeth isn't working right now it could have an effect on thunderclap damage... that might be why they nerfed TC in the first place... I think it would be best to wait and see what it's like with Armored to the teeth working. Since TC is supposed to scale with AP.

[Punchingbag]

I wouldn't want IMP TC to give us the AOE tanking ability that consecrate has. But I do want it to be able to hold aggro easily over healers and the ability to pick up mobs running by. Or maybe if we get enough TC's down eventually locks and mages can go AOE happy. I hope they put it back to where it was.

Why not?

I know it has to do with who you run with and all (read more PUGs than guildies) but I am personally tired as hell of hearing "we need a pally tank for this" because AOE tanking in BC is stacked against the warrior.

If all tanks are supposed to be "equal" in WoTLK then why can't warriors have an AOE tanking skill on par with Pallys.

Personally, I don't care what Blizz does specifically with the numbers, talents, skills as long as the end means I am able to AOE tank 5-mans the same as a Pally while still being able to be a MT in a 10-man. As it stands now, I look like a hero in Karazhan and and idiot in Heroic SP (without CCers). Prot warriors sacrifice enough to be able to do what we do. Examples: Takes me 30 minutes to solo a gnat with my pathetic DPS. Get 2 shot by a gnome mage in BGs 1v1 while guarding the farm.

I'm not trying to start a Warrior vs. Pally thingy so consider this more a warrior rant.

[Punchingbag]

It has really killed the fun factor, imho. Sad.

And that is what it is all about, isn't it? This is a game and supposed to be fun.

Playing my Hunter is fun without much work.

Playing my tank is sometimes fun with a lot of work.

Blizzard seems to want to make tanking more fun and I was excited as hell reading the last beta notes but the wind is coming out of the sails a bit.

[Archfiend]

My opinion, as stated on the beta forums, is that the talent was probably always too strong as it was, and we were relying upon it as a crutch. With the enormous bonus damage removed, we're seeing the skill as it actually is, and there's a real deficiency there - my feeling is that the target limit sucks, but is probably okay (increasing the limit slightly w/o glyphs would be nice), but the base damage on the untalented skill needs to go up significantly to make up for the loss in the talent. What that would leave us with would be a skill that is equally useful for tanking for arms, fury, and prot warriors, with a talent easily accessible to all in the prot tree that represents an adequate increase, if not as significant as what we're used to from the talent.