hey there, it is my first 5 minutes on this site and read the article in the front page which says "Threat Is Not A Raid Responsibility" . i couldnt find a way a comment button or such on news so i am postin here what i think about it...
1. as a druid tank i really dont have agro/threat issues at all... my gear is badge loot, and some T4 pieces and i have 800ish TPS.. which i think is acceptable. but even with that threat if someone else in the group say a rogue/mage overagroes whose responsibility this is ? i have to use taunt on that mob, and since the overagroer got hit healer has to heal him fast, and when healer gets agro my taunt is on CD and imagine this happening every pull, quite annoying and seriously whose resposibility is this ?
2. with the given gear for druids, even though with our high ap, where would u fit the said hit rating/expertise etc. stats. pls check my gear on armory and tell me which enchant, item, gem i should replace ofc without losing 415 def (immune crit), and without significant loss in other stats, such as dodge, armor hp.
i agree tank has huge responsibility for threat in a raid but it is not only his responsibility it is a raid responsibility.. imagine all the mages in your raid shooting pyro's or whatever over and over whose resposibility is this etc.
thx for the read
Hmm i think all the dps should watch over for the aggro they make first of all and they need to give u some seconds for make the initial aggro on the mob or boss.
But there are situations when they need to full nuke as at Illidari Council so there is your job to keep the aggro (specilay if gonna tank the Paladin).
That is my opinion maybe is not 100% right
And mage's who use Pyro Blast with regularity are some noobs. (exept Curator's evocation)
The only active role a tank currently has is threat. Proclaiming threat as the raid's responsibility is pure laziness, nothing else. What else are you going to do while tanking?
Everyone has a responsibility to adapt on the fly; it has nothing to do specifically with threat.
Your DPSers have one responsibility with regards to threat: Deal as much damage as possible while dealing as little threat as possible. That's it; full stop. Obviously a warlock shouldn't be spamming Searing Pain.
風林火山陰雷
ಠ ,ಠ
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain - it's time to roll the dice
Is true but don't say to me u can hold the aggro if all DPS classes start full nuke right from the start of the fight.
They have their resp to manage the way they are do the DPS.
Use vanish, Iceblock, Soulshatter, Fade and so far..... not just nuke like crazy
On another blog I saw it pointed out VERY well. . . it was a DPS caster blog I think:
Casters, locks especially, love to ride the 129% train. That's all fine and dandy because math is on their side. So let's say there's 2 locks and a mage standing next to each other riding that train and one of them nubs it up and crits 4 times in a row and now has aggro. Assuming this is a raid boss immune to taunt--what happens? Lock #1 has aggro and gets one shotted. However, that doesn't send the boss back to the tank since the 3 casters were standing next to each other and now switched trains to the 110% track.
As you can see the dominos are falling and the last one says Wipe.
I use the calculator from here to track TPS on bosses. I'll do 700 on defensive bosses and average 800 on most "normal" bosses. I have hit 900 once. So it seems that what Cider is saying is that MY side of threat (churning it out in a decent quantity) is covered. The rest is on the DPS'ers.
I don't know, I see it as a tank + rest of the raid responsibility.
The tank is responsible for the threat ceiling while the DPS are responsible for not crossing it (threat management). Both should be working hard at their respective goals.
Putting it all on the tank isn't really fair. DPS classes are expected to manage their threat to some extent. However, I would agree that the tank has the highest responsibility in that he/she provides the threat ceiling to which the DPS adheres to. However, if the DPS carelessly pull aggro, then they have an issue. If a tank isn't generating enough threat, they have an issue.
I agree with Jere, and I'll put it more succinctly.
A tank's job is about managing risk.
If the ratio of dpsers near the threat ceiling is very small and the risk of hitting the enrage timer is nonexistent or trivial after accounting for dps attrition, it makes no sense to put so many eggs in the threat basket that you introduce risk of exceeding your healers' throughput or endurance limits, and you have to account for their attrition /downtime issues as well.
when tanking multiple mobs it is tanks responsibily to build agro on all so that healer wont have healing agro... and it is not only threat generation that tank does in a group.. there is pulling, as i said keeping agro on multiple mobs and also while doing this u shouldnt break any cc if it is in melee range, and also in thight situations where healer must heal huge amounts so u have to taunt/bash etc to save the healer... it is not only keeping one mob on u
Yes the raid should watch their threat, but that doesn't mean the tank shouldn't be trying everything in his/her power to generate as much threat as they can. Some of this goes down to gear choices, how much pure avoidance can I afford to loose for that tier piece that has a bunch of block value on it (for warriors) or some extra +dmg for paladins.
Just because a boss can be killed inside the "enrage" time doesn't mean that a tank has generated enough threat to kill the boss. There are many fights where the longer the amount of time spent fighting him the greater the chance someone will screw up and wipe the raid.
Yes the whole 3 casters above 100% thing is bad, and it only takes 1 to kill 4 or 5 who were being more careful, but out goal should be as always to try and get out ahead in threat and stay there.
The only thing better than being able to tank, is realizing that you no longer need to prove that you can.
Its the raid's reponsibility to notice when the tank is not doing it right. If a DPSer has to back down, the tank is underperforming. There are gear considerations of course and there are extremes...mages shouldn't open with a PoM pyro/Arc Pwr/trinket bomb as the tank shield slams. Aggro transitions happen, aggro dumps do occur. When you shift Hydross from nature to frost and a lock drills him with a 5K shadowbolt crit.....bad things happen.
All that said, in general, it is on the tank to our threat the DPS. If he does not, it is the DPS's responsibility to back off. Two wrongs don't make a right. There's no gain and going ahead an jerking aggro off the tank, wiping the raid then pointing at the tank like he's a retard.
My point is, yes, DPS has to pay attention but it doesn't let the tank off the hook for poor performance. Its much better to throttle back, kill the boss, and then discuss the issues after than to jerk aggro to prove a point.
Warlock : Bro, I was threat capped there most of the fight, even when I shattered
Tank : I'll post a question on Tankspot tomorrow and see if I can get some advice on my threat output.
Maximising chance for success.
When you can survive a fight in my opinion the biggest thing which counts for most fights to make the chance for success bigger is a fight that's over faster, meaning in most fights that you producing more threat is actually making survivability of the raid higher. (that is if your dps-ers dps is capped by your threat output).
Bosses do nasty stuff, get less of the nasty stuff by making the fight quicker and your chance of success is bigger.
(no threat problems really but as an example) Take archimonde, why is he so hard for so many guilds? It's taking them too long. People can really focus for a few minutes but if things take too long the chance of success decreases rapidly. If you manage to put out more dps, you reduce the number of times the raid gets feared and the number of fires people can walk into. Older raids have better dps, that combined with having done archimonde more makes for a much much easier time.
In an equal geared raid, on a fight that does not have an aggro dump mechanic, the tank gets a 10k lead from me. If he can't hold aggro after getting that kind of lead than we have some serious problems. Tanks I have raided with for a while now usually tell me to start at about 5k, but that's after we got used to palying with each other.
Is the assertion that no one should be able to pull off of a tank that is doing it right (not talking about the beginning of the fight)? I have seen some pretty mean Warlocks and Hunters in terms of TPS. If they really wanted to, they could pull off of pretty much anybody.
I mean, I was pulling 1250'ish TPS on Gorefiend progression fights and I still had two of the DPS'ers hugging my threat ceiling the whole way. Am I doing it wrong? I was well ahead the rest of the raid, but I can only do so much in the gear I have. Where is the line? There are plenty of hunters hitting 2k+ TPS semi-reliably. Even with Feign Death, that can push it sometimes.
Back in T4-T5 days, there wasn't much trouble holding aggro, but the T6 curve seems steeper.
That assertion is not right. You should just set the bar as high as possible.Is the assertion that no one should be able to pull off of a tank that is doing it right
I agree, but a lot of the posts sound much more polar than that. I am trying to figure out what we are debating exactly.Originally Posted by orcstar
To be an effective tank(or any raid role for that matter) you must constantly seek answers and work hard, trying to put forth maximum performance. This is really a philosphical question we are dealing with because the tank should be putting out the maximum threat they can and looking for way to improve every time out.
I suppose from a raid leader's POV, if he's not the tank, its a question of whom do you go to and say "hey, we need you to do better" One way to put it is that DPS has to be aware of the situation from top to bottom. If you are a healer and you know someone else is a weaker healer, you help heal thier assigned target. Winning is more important than differentiating who is right and who is wrong. If you are a DPSer, you have to recognize a tank is not producing enough threat.
I think part of it is looking at the entire issue in the wrong context. We're looking for who is to blame in a scenario but I think its more effective to look at the big picture and encourage communication, cooperation and helping each other achieve higher performance.
Isn't it the raid's responsibility to make sure everyone is performing better?
I think the general impression here is that we should not be relying solely on the raid's threat management. A tale of two tanks time:
I ran with one warrior in ssc once, guild master of his guild, who put out a whopping 300 tps. sunders, white damage shield slam revenge white damage shield slam revenge. no heroic strike, no dev. sunders would fall off and never go back on. How did the raid respond to this travesty? a 1000 TPS paladin was main tank for all the bosses. Problem? no. Kudos to the pally for being main tank. Problem: he was only main tank until the guild leader geared up. We spent 2 minutes between each trash pull and ran five hunters who all had misdirect rotations up on this horribad warrior at all times. He thought he was good and it became the raid's responsibility to manage threat. DPS left the guild in droves.
Another tank, a certain nameless draenei paladin (meeee!), when tanking prince recently, fully consumabled, was pumping 1200 TPS only to find a boomkin riding his ass in omen, occasionally spiking past it. Rather than say "hey, boomkin, throttle back." this silly paladin hit shield toss as he was in a rather long avoidance streak and needed the damage for mana anyway. Needless to say prince decided that was a great moment to proc thrash. This wipe occurred because the boomkin forgot to respec for subtlety before the raid and the tank was trying unreasonably to raise his threat to compensate.
So, it's not black and white. unfortunately some classes just have threat problems (I don't even want boomkin in raids because they can't manage threat and before sunwell they somehow can't manage to crack 900 DPS.) and others don't. things being unequal, it's hard to really say how much should be on the tank and how much should be on the DPS, but there comes a point where you can't safely raise the bar without doing stupid things, as I did, and you simply have to ask people to throttle back.
The vast majority of non-first kill fights I would agree that agro is the tanks responsibility. On every non-first kill fight, when learning the mechanics, everyone should be focused first on survivability. DPS and better threat generation comes after that. Only when you start getting past 50% should threat even be a consideration. On bosses that have been killed or are close to death, the fights I can think of that are everyone's responsibility to manage their threat are:
Archimonde
Due to the knockback + fires, only dps warriors are able to reliably full dps. Conversly, healers can have a very difficult time safely getting into range. Avoidance makes the chance of a tank death almost 0 and the lack of incoming damage gives the healers more time to save people who get doomfired. Asking everyone to watch threat until after the first fear is not unreasonable at all. That said, 700 TPS is easy to push out when you don't have to use shield block.
Bloodboil:
Due to P2 having no agro table, and P1 having a nasty stacking debuff plus a deagro knockback, and extremely heavy healing requirements, avoidance gear works great here. Dpsers should not be heavy dpsing during P1, they should be blowing all their cooldowns in P2. Again 700 TPS is not too hard to pull off here due to not needing shield block and when not currently tanking, the incoming rage from the dot helps a lot.
Voidreaver
Its been awhile, but dpsers (especially shadow priests) did have to watch their threat on this fight. The knockbacks made holding agro near the end of the fight very difficult.
So in summary:
If the fight has mechanics that prevent full dps in some phases or special agro mechanics such as knockbacks, 0-agro phases, it is everyone's responsibility to understand the fight and behave appropriately.
It is the tanks job to bust his arse and be perfect 110% of the time unlike every other class in the game. It is everyone elses job to understand that there are actual limits to what a well skilled well geared tank can do.
A tank who understands rotations and rage dumping and does it all properly still has to deal with variable healer quality and has to gear accordingly which is likely to mean non-optimal threat output.
If the tank simply says "I have enough EH for this fight, all my other gear is going towards threat" and wipes happen because the healers fail to perform, people die. Since the tank has gear that could have resulted in no death, it is the tank's fault.
We are stuck making up for everyone elses shortcomings. We don't need extra problems added to all the variables we already have to deal with.
Additionally, gear drops based on dice rolls. It is not like we can walk into the tank shop and buy gear off the shelf to get to that optimum balance of health vs avoidance vs threat for each fight. Sometimes you just don't have that uber threat item.
Yes, they are people playing tanks who really shouldn't be but at the end of the day everyone has to adjust to the realities they are faced with.
I think it's misconstrued here. We're not saying that your DPS should be able to mash the shit out of their 1 button macro and not worry about their threat. That wasn't the point of the news post. What it was meant to say is that it shouldn't be the ENTIRE RAID's responsibility to throttle their threat for a crappy Tank. it is the tanks responsibility to put out as much as possible, and the raid's job to ride that curve as best as possible. Sure it's not the entire raid's job, it's every individual's job to do their best, but the point of the matter is that it is NOT OKAY for the tank to sit back and relax at 600 tps and think that "hey bosses are dying after our 20th attempt but they're dying, so what's the big deal". They should be concerned, just as DPS should be concerned, just as Healers should be concerned, that if they aren't doing the best they possibly can, 24 other players are suffering for their shortcomings.
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