News of the World of Warcraft

[Ciderhelm]

I'm going to cover several of the WoW-related discussions I've had this last week, since they seemed interesting enough. There are a lot of subjects, so be sure to scroll down to check them out!

Wrath Impressions
The difference between Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King is significantly greater than the difference between original WoW and Burning Crusade was. Where Burning Crusade expanded on scripting and interesting quest lines, Wrath of the Lich King is rewriting the book on what the game can be.

That's the simplest way I can describe my impressions as I've gotten involved in the Beta process. I'm not talking about tanking in particular -- I'll get to that shortly -- but rather the entire game. The quests are a masterwork of well-implemented concepts. Northrend is visually stunning and smooth across the world. There's something magical in the air that sets this game apart from both Burning Crusade and other MMO's I've been involved with.


Threat Is Not A Raid Responsibility
I read this over the last week, and I was almost tempted to plaster it onto the TankSpot banner image or into our header. Over the last three years, I consistently hear Threat being described as a raid responsibility, and it grates on me every time I hear it. Many tanks are too focused on avoidance and mitigation at the expense of Threat in encounters where it really doesn't make sense.

Now, let me put in a few caveats. If a DPSer significantly outgears a tank, or is in a situation with unusual disparity such as running low-damage instances with high damage reduction gear, then there are naturally going to be issues. I'm also not suggesting that DPSers should be pushing their Threat as hard as possible at all times, especially on encounters with tank-directed CC. Obviously a DPS class should be careful not to pull.

What I'm more concerned about is tanks who are still averaging 400-500 TPS and feel that's acceptable. It's not. The most common excuse I hear is, "our DPS has Omen and knows when not to pull, so we're fine." This is simply not an acceptable attitude for a tank. It is your responsibility to allow the DPS to open up. It is your responsibility to understand gearing options to build Threat (Expertise/Hit/SBV) and when it's safe and beneficial to use them.

If you don't learn how to handle your Threat effectively, you'll be impotent when it comes to encounters with relatively hard enrage timers or other mechanics that require they die quickly. More importantly, you won't be playing to your potential; with tanking, satisfaction only occurs if you're playing excellently.

That's not to say that DPS have an excuse to be ignorant or blind to real tanking issues you'll have. Having mobs ranged down and attacked before they've even reached the tank is obviously not going to be acceptable.

Anyway, I'd suggest you jump into a bit of reading if this section applies to you:
Xav's Generating Threat Guide
Single & Multi Target Threat


Looking Back, Looking Forward
I was most in love with my Warrior when Shield Slam was in it's glory days. I expect we'll see those days again. That said, I wanted to share an image that sums up the first year of Burning Crusade:



I think I'm safe to post it since it's a picture from my own UI, but I'd love to know who originally authored it!


Wrath Warrior Development
I'm going to jump specifically into Warriors as far as the development process is going in Wrath. I'll let others cover the other tanking classes.

First, let me cover some of the basics of the current Beta for Protection Warriors. Sword and Board is highly underrated -- it is amazingly fun and the 10% proc rate means it comes up regularly. Shockwave is also much better than I expected, particularly due to it's low rage cost. These two abilities I hope remain in their current form.

Beta does have several issues at the moment. There are mechanical issues, such as Devastate currently only applying one Sunder debuff. There are tree issues -- Protection is currently not streamlined to allow tanks to pick up good tanking talents in a reasonable way. However, we know that Protection is shortly going to see substantial and substantive changes, so I've been ignoring the bloat.


I appreciate people raising their concerns, both here and on the official forums. While Burning Crusade release was generally good, we waited for a very long time for much-needed improvements with rage, itemization, and class balance. Endless Rage is an ability that should have never made it to live servers. My own promotion of Devastate on the Beta and official forums only prolonged the time a fundamentally awkward ability stayed untouched on live. If you have an issue with abilities, voice your opinion!

However, let me be clear: Protection could be amazing. Waiting on the next Protection build in Beta is like waiting on Christmas. I believe we're going to get buffs, and I believe they're going to redefine our class in a way that hasn't been seen since Shield Slam was introduced. The changes we see will likely be related to our core design (bear in mind how many of our talents are starting to have synergy with Shield Slam) and our ability to handle much more than just tanking.


Speaking of Shield Slam Synergy (Remember That Awful Trinket?)
I tend to focus on strange trinket combinations to pull off some neat tricks. That's the basis of our Shield Slam thread, but also what allows for things like solo'ing old raid bosses.

For Black Temple raiders who may be tempted to level Protection after the upcoming changes, try this on for size: [item]Ashtongue Talisman of Valor[/item] and Sword and Board are increasing the up-time of the buff and increasing the average healing I'm getting across the board. It's an attractive trinket, especially now that both Shield Wall and Recklessness (now unlinked) can be used regularly. Shield Wall allows more efficiency when grinding, Recklessness allows more burst when the buff is up.

Don't take this to mean Protection is the best leveling build. It is not, and before any recommendation is made that even remotely suggests Protection for leveling solo, we'll have to see the new changes. However, if you're in the position I am, having very little DPS gear, but having a whole lot of SBV/Crit gear, it is proving once again to be the most fun and interesting way to level.


What's cuter than a Gnomish Deathknight?
Keep your eyes out for Deathwait's son at Blizzcon!



Sales on this particular hat have been picking up in advance of Blizzcon. If you're heading that way, be sure to purchase the official baseball cap to identify fellow tanks!


Wrath Podcasts
Lore and I have been on vent the last week discussing podcast ideas and our impressions of Wrath of the Lich King. It has been our intention to start these up again with all of the new Beta information, and it appears we're on track to do so.

Our original plan was to create a comprehensive overview of tanking and the new instances after running them together... then we realized that that we play different factions. He has since begun leveling a Deathknight on Alliance, and is nearly ready for Northrend. Expect information soon!


Recruit-A-Friend
We recently had a few discussions on TankSpot about people's impressions on Recruit-A-Friend. I'll take this opportunity to give my own -- this is awesome!

For those who weren't aware, many of the TankSpot regulars formed up a guild in Age of Conan where we've been enjoying raiding in our spare time. The flip side of this is that we've brought several friends back from that game through this recruitment system.

With Wrath coming up, it's good to be able to bring people in and help them get up to par as we come towards this expansion. The system specifically makes it easy to bring people who may have more time than you -- for instance, if you're raiding nightly and can't group with them -- since it allows granting levels as well. This is doubly exciting for those of us who're seeing how this next expansion is shaping up.


TankSpot Moderation
The site has been coming along well. We've been expecting increased traffic and increased discussion as we near Wrath, and we're certainly getting it. The downside is that this means increased moderation and work on our ends. I'm on a relatively short fuse when it comes to new member posts, because we're getting a lot of people who don't understand the community we've built here.

I don't want to read why X class should not be allowed to tank as well as Y. I don't want to read about why X class does or does not require skill. I don't want to read why X guild or player is stupid if they don't do things a certain way. That belongs on the official forums. If you bring it here, it will be moderated and, if you don't learn it quick enough, you'll be banned. You may think these things only affect you, but no one likes going to a forum and having their first impression of the class that they're leveling be that they're not appreciated or as capable as others.

Debates -- even viciously argumentative ones! -- are encouraged so long as they're helpful and based in reality.


Gnohawk

[veneretio]

I think the underwhelming-ness in regards to Sword and Board stems from everyone looking at it in terms of rage efficiency. After all, 17ish rage/minute is hardly anything to go home and tell mom about for a 5 point talent. What is often overlooked is the additional damage/threat that's gained by being able to Shield Slam instead of Devastate or Revenge. The combination of the two makes for a pretty cool talent and I'm not surprised that it's fun after all although I'll have to experience it for myself whether that god awful trinket is actually useful or not.

[Ciderhelm]

I think the underwhelming-ness in regards to Sword and Board stems from everyone looking at it in terms of rage efficiency. After all, 17ish rage/minute is hardly anything to go home and tell mom about for a 5 point talent. What is often overlooked is the additional damage/threat that's gained by being able to Shield Slam instead of Devastate or Revenge. The combination of the two makes for a pretty cool talent and I'm not surprised that it's fun after all although I'll have to experience it for myself whether that god awful trinket is actually useful or not.

Where on earth are you coming up with 17 rage a minute? You realize it procs off Devastate as well?

[Horacio]

Fantastic post. I'll dig into it when I get a chance but great stuff. You should really get your own website, dude.

[Horacio]

Sword and Board certainly makes items like the Autoblocker interesting...I mean it currently has a limited number of SS you can get off during its duration but with a few S&B procs.....

I love Shield Slams and am guilty of stacking BV from time to time away from the ideal gear set just to bigger slams in. That's my favorite 'screen shot' and 300 is just an awesome movie.....every time we throw it in the DvD machine and I don't want to log in any alts for a week.

[veneretio]

Where on earth are you coming up with 17 rage a minute? You realize it procs off Devastate as well?

I'd read it somewhere. Chalk that up to not thinking enough before posting.

You're correct it's way off. The standard rotation now of rev > ss > dev > dev would lead to 30 opportunities per minute averaging out to 3 ppm. Changing that rotation to ss > dev x3 leads to 40 opportunities making for 4 ppm. So even in the least ideal of situations, we can expect 2 proc per minute or 34 rage saved.

Anyway my hasty, incorrect math aside, I agree it seems like a really fun talent. I assume that your free Shield Slam can proc another free Shield Slam?

[TomHuxley]

After reading your excellent sumary of WotLK game play I have an important question: Is it possible to get that screen cap composite in a higher resolution?

I want to use it as wallpaper on my desktop...

[Kromzul]

Haven't we agreed by now that Sword and Board is an awful talent that doesn't do a damn thing about any of the major problems with the Protection warrior spec, given that it's an incredibly low proc rate on an effect that is, itself, mediocre?

There needs to be major changes in the way warrior tanks gain rage if the Protection warrior isn't going to be the least enjoyable spec in the entire game.

[Ciderhelm]

Haven't we agreed by now that Sword and Board is an awful talent that doesn't do a damn thing about any of the major problems with the Protection warrior spec, given that it's an incredibly low proc rate on an effect that is, itself, mediocre?

Sword and Board is more rage effective than Anger Management and Improved Bloodrage combined. It will enable more Threat than 5 points in Cruelty. It is more likely to help in low-rage situations than Justified Killing. It's also a lot of fun.

So, while I'm not sure what agreement you're talking about, anyone saying this flatly does not understand what they're talking about. There are plenty of severe shortcomings in Protection atm, but Sword and Board does not fall into that category.

[Kromzul]

Sword and Board is more rage effective than Anger Management and Improved Bloodrage combined. It will enable more Threat than 5 points in Cruelty. It is more likely to help in low-rage situations than Justified Killing. It's also a lot of fun.

Anger Management and Improved Bloodrage are also horrible talents that qualify as filler, at best. Your claim that it causes more threat than 5 points in Cruelty is dubious (particularly given that these talents multiply with one another...).

Let's suppose a theoretically best-case scenario of four operations that can trigger SnB. I've got a 10% chance that a Shield Slam procs SnB, thus basically giving me a 4.5 second reduction in the cooldown of Shield Slam. I've got a 10% chance that the Devastate after it procs SnB, for a 3.0 second reduction in the cooldown, and another 10% chance for the next Devastate to give me a 1.5 second reduction. Overall, that's 0.1*4.5 + 0.1*3.0 + 0.1*1.5 = 0.9 -> an average of 0.9 seconds reduction in the cooldown of Shield Slam. Remarkably similar to Improved Mortal Strike (which is the first talent anyone drops), minus the damage bonus. And relying on a perfect cycle where the player is able to capitalize on every opportunity to use the ability (which, given the colossal amount of button mashing a Prot warrior already engages in, probably isn't realistic).

The rage savings is another factor, but I really don't consider yet-another-RNG solution to rage problems to be an ideal solution to anything. And if they this doesn't come with a host of other rage-efficiency or generation mechanics, then I'll consider it another misguided Endless Rage-like kludge to make up for the fact that rage often flows in at a trickle.

The simple fact of the matter is that they're going to have to drastically increase the proc rate and/or boost the actual effect of the proc to make this anything but *even more expendable* than the pre-Wrath Improved Mortal Strike.

So, while I'm not sure what agreement you're talking about, anyone saying this flatly does not understand what they're talking about. There are plenty of severe shortcomings in Protection atm, but Sword and Board does not fall into that category.

Well, I disagree. And I think I do have some minor clue what I'm talking about. I just don't believe that being able to very occasionally press a button on a skill that would have been on cooldown is enough to warrant praise to the talent designers.

It sure as hell can't compete with the 45-point talents in Arms or Fury.

[Ciderhelm]

Anger Management and Improved Bloodrage are also horrible talents that qualify as filler, at best. Your claim that it causes more threat than 5 points in Cruelty is dubious (particularly given that these talents multiply with one another...).

Let's suppose a theoretically best-case scenario of four operations that can trigger SnB. I've got a 10% chance that a Shield Slam procs SnB, thus basically giving me a 4.5 second reduction in the cooldown of Shield Slam. I've got a 10% chance that the Devastate after it procs SnB, for a 3.0 second reduction in the cooldown, and another 10% chance for the next Devastate to give me a 1.5 second reduction. Overall, that's 0.1*4.5 + 0.1*3.0 + 0.1*1.5 = 0.9 -> an average of 0.9 seconds reduction in the cooldown of Shield Slam. Remarkably similar to Improved Mortal Strike (which is the first talent anyone drops), minus the damage bonus. And relying on a perfect cycle where the player is able to capitalize on every opportunity to use the ability (which, given the colossal amount of button mashing a Prot warrior already engages in, probably isn't realistic).

The rage savings is another factor, but I really don't consider yet-another-RNG solution to rage problems to be an ideal solution to anything.

You're being disingenuous by following up math with that statement. In other words, you realize you'll come to the same conclusion I made if you count both the cooldown reduction and the rage reduction, so you dismiss the rage reduction altogether, saying 'it's not ideal.' Yet rage seems to be your primary complaint in your previous post.

Let's make this clear:

1. On 25-30 attacks per minute, there is a 10% chance that Shield Slam's cooldown will be removed, allowing a Shield Slam earlier than it would have occurred otherwise. Shield Slam is still the best and highest Threat ability available to Warriors, and the damage buffs provided to it in Wrath make this even more true than it currently is.

2. On 25-40 attacks per minute, there is a 10% chance that your next Shield Slam will take zero rage (a 17 rage reduction from the cost of a Shield Slam or a 9 rage reduction from the cost of a Devastate on that same cooldown, depending on whether you're looking at effectiveness or efficiency).

What does this mean? In high rage situations when tanking, this allows an extra Heroic Strike on that cooldown, on top of the extra Threat that may be provided. In low rage situations -- and I can say this for fact based on Beta testing -- it realistically means a rotation where I have been struggling for rage is suddenly very stable, because I got a buffer of one cooldown.


If you're expecting Sword and Board to solve all issues in Protection, you're expecting too much from one talent. If you're suggesting that it's not a good 5-point talent, you're just wrong.

[AnvilDK]

I still do not like Sword and Board talent. Alone because of the needed attention from my part.

As a tank you need to be dependable. You need to output TPS dependable. Sword and Board talent runs on devastate and shield slam but does not include revenge.

That means to optimize for Sword and Board you either take out revenge or you extend the time it takes to get it to proc.

The difference is by optimising you remove revenge for a higher proc chance. This makes your rotation more expensive. Requiring more rage.

Miss dodge and parry will extend the time it takes to get a proc.
If I take it out of the equation on your 10th hit you proc sword and board. Thats 1,5 minuts per proc.
If it procs off devastate your limited by the GCD. If it procs off shield slam the GCD gets refreshed as well(hope you can confirm this).
With lag it will take some time to actively hit the button unless you macro it. Once you have used your "free shield slam" your back to the rotation with 3 devastate before your next shield slam. Again furthering the idear of just macro devastate and shield slam making us a 1 button wonder.

I would much rather have the new nifty enrage mechanisme built into Sword and board. 15% more damage in 12 seconds yes sir gimme more of that.

I would rather have my attention on the playing field then looking for that little shield slam icon to light up out of order. That might be fun for a dps that spends the majority of his time kissing a bosses behind. I for one feel I got pleanty of reactive abilities to play with in the form of my ohshit buttons infront of the boss. Or for that matter keeping my raid fellows safe from harm.

Fun factor?? I get fun from achiving great things. Be it to drag a pug through a instance by sheer force of will or save the day in a raid encounter going horrible wrong. Hitting a button and seeing big numbers is fun but as long as it isnt dependable I can not rely on it for anything but random tps boost.
In pvp another shield slam out of order might improve my damage but you will not be doing your cycle reliable on anything since pvp is so mobile. This talent is so limited in its application that I would rather spend points elsewhere. I am waiting with glee for the new Protection setup. I am almost 100% sure sword and board will get cheaper talentwise and move down and replaced with some kind of enrage mechanisme Like we see in both Arms and Fury. It looks like its our new "Warrior" flavor.

So I say pop enrage

Anvil

[Aldragoriad]

My entire problem with SnB is the fact that is symptomatic of the tree bloat in prot right now. I hate the fact that its a 5 point talent, when it realistically is no better than shield mastery. I'd love it as a 1 point talent, and would settle for a 3 pointer, but 5 is just way too much, especially considering the fact that its hard enough to find room for everything in the revamped tree as it is.

[Ciderhelm]

I still do not like Sword and Board talent. Alone because of the needed attention from my part.

I can see this being an issue with original Devastate since it required you have both Sunder and Devastate on your hotbar, which could be frustrating.

Sword and Board, however, is not annoying in the same way. It doesn't require you learn new keybinds, it just requires you pay attention to either your buffs or your cooldowns. Watching buffs, cooldowns and timers is all that raiding has been in the last three years. It has had nothing to do with watching the playfield -- that's reserved for 5-man content. So, being rewarded for paying attention to what tanks already should be paying attention to isn't exactly a bad thing.

That means to optimize for Sword and Board you either take out revenge or you extend the time it takes to get it to proc.

The difference is by optimising you remove revenge for a higher proc chance. This makes your rotation more expensive. Requiring more rage.

Miss dodge and parry will extend the time it takes to get a proc.
If I take it out of the equation on your 10th hit you proc sword and board. Thats 1,5 minuts per proc.

I'm not entirely following you here. Unless I'm lost on conversion, are you really saying that you think Sword and Board will only proc every minute and a half?... If so, that is completely incorrect.

With Revenge included, Sword and Board will proc 2-3 times per minute. Each of those time will provide both the free rage on that cooldown and will shorten the cooldown. Yes, Hit and Expertise will make that more reliable, but that's not exactly a strong argument since everything else works that way as well.

Fun factor?? I get fun from achiving great things. Be it to drag a pug through a instance by sheer force of will or save the day in a raid encounter going horrible wrong.

I agree that the satisfaction from raiding is achieving things with friends and saving a raid from a wipe. However, that's because that's literally the only thing people could find enjoyable, given that raiding is tedious and relatively worthless as far as requiring attention or player skill. You will learn more tanking skill, reaction, and effectiveness in 5-Mans and Heroics than you will in any raid zone.

Anything -- anything -- which requires more than 2344 2344 2344 2344 during a raid is a positive change.

My entire problem with SnB is the fact that is symptomatic of the tree bloat in prot right now. I hate the fact that its a 5 point talent, when it realistically is no better than shield mastery. I'd love it as a 1 point talent, and would settle for a 3 pointer, but 5 is just way too much, especially considering the fact that its hard enough to find room for everything in the revamped tree as it is.

I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it being a 3-point talent, nor would I be opposed to it being in another position. However, the statement was that it's underrated and I've been having fun with it.

The position and the talent point requirement are far more an issue of the general issues and bloat in Protection -- as you said -- than an issue with the talent. Everyone is aware Protection is coming up desperately short in design at the moment. The Sword and Board talent itself is good regardless.


To make this clear again -- Sword and Board is doing two things. It's giving quicker Shield Slams and it's conserving rage on our highest-rage ability. While both look small separately, they are well worth the points together.

Some of you have latched onto this talent as though it's supposed to be the savior of all Protection woes, and anything short of that means it needs to be scrapped. I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. It's not a 31, 41, or 51 point talent, it's a filler talent I wrote a sentence about because it's been fun.

[Aldragoriad]

Shield Mastery does 2 things too, lowers the damage you're taking whenever you block an attack, and ups the damage on your shield slams, by about the % of extra shield slams you get from SnB. Now you can arguably say that the rage savings are better than the damage reduction of Shield Mastery, but in the end, unless you're rage starved they're both the minor part of the equation. I see no reason to have to use 5 talent points for the same benefit I get from 3, earlier in the tree.

[AnvilDK]

With Revenge included, Sword and Board will proc 2-3 times per minute. Each of those time will provide both the free rage on that cooldown and will shorten the cooldown. Yes, Hit and Expertise will make that more reliable, but that's not exactly a strong argument since everything else works that way as well.

2-3 times per minut sounds huge. I can understand your excitment.

I will wait and see how it pans out. I trust your insight.

you got 6 rotations in a minut. That is more like 33-50% proc rate. Certanly not just 10%.

Anvil

[Ciderhelm]

Shield Mastery does 2 things too, lowers the damage you're taking whenever you block an attack, and ups the damage on your shield slams, by about the % of extra shield slams you get from SnB. Now you can arguably say that the rage savings are better than the damage reduction of Shield Mastery, but in the end, unless you're rage starved they're both the minor part of the equation. I see no reason to have to use 5 talent points for the same benefit I get from 3, earlier in the tree.

Rage efficiency =/= damage reduction.

Rage effectiveness =/= damage reduction.

The talents are absolutely and completely unable to be compared beyond Threat. In Threat they have a synergy, and no tank will ever make the decision between Shield Mastery and Sword and Board. The reason I cited Cruelty and Anger Management is because both are end talents that players would make a choice between.

I currently spend 4 points more than I need in Arms to pick up Anger Management. I consider it worth it in the majority of situations I'm in. Rage efficiency matters that much to me.

[Aldragoriad]

I didn't say they were the same, in fact, I said that you probably got more use out of the rage reduction from SnB. In the larger scheme of things however, I don't feel that the rage savings are 2 points better than the damage reduction that comes out of shield mastery, especially given the fact that we're supposed to get better rage generation in WOTLK anyway. I see the two sets of talents by and large to be of equal use, so why am I having to invest 2 more talent points in SnB, in an already bloated tree. Personally, I'd like to have them dump useless Vigilance, and make SnB the 41 point single talent linked to Concussion Blow.

I'm curious as to how you get 4 points in arms for AM though, near as I can tell you're only forced to spend 3, 2 of which do have some side benefit attached to them in the form of lower rage heroic strikes, which you can argue the usefulness of, but there is some benefit to it. And with the latest patch release and Justified Killing, its probably a moot point anyway.

[Ciderhelm]

Personally, I'd like to have them dump useless Vigilance, and make SnB the 41 point single talent linked to Concussion Blow.

As I said earlier, I certainly wouldn't have a problem if Sword and Board were changed in the talent tree. I just find it fun. Position or points doesn't particularly bother me.

I'm curious as to how you get 4 points in arms for AM though, near as I can tell you're only forced to spend 3, 2 of which do have some side benefit attached to them in the form of lower rage heroic strikes, which you can argue the usefulness of, but there is some benefit to it.

3, not 4. At any point I've been in raiding in TBC, either imp TC or imp HS has been good, but not both, so take your pick on which one I don't like any given day.

Rage efficiency is the only way to maximize Threat output. My particular build is not the best build out there for it -- getting three in Heroic Strike is unquestionably better than Anger Management in some content depending on gear.

Focused Rage is unquestionably the king of rage efficiency. 5 points in Sword and Board don't touch it, nor does Imp Sunder, Imp Heroic, Imp Bloodrage, or Anger Management. But all of these talents play off each other, and once you get down to using 2 and 9 rage attacks as the majority, saving 17 rage is suddenly a bigger deal. It can allow for one more attack or, more importantly, one more Heroic Strike.

As I suggested earlier, the value in Sword and Board (outside of raiding) is that a single proc provides a small buffer that can cascade through several rotations without me needing to worry about rage again. It procs often enough that this is a nice benefit.

And with the latest patch release and Justified Killing, its probably a moot point anyway.

I am operating under the assumption that Blizzard will not leave that in it's current location. If the comments on the Beta board are an indication, Rage from Avoidance is a given, and will probably be included without needing talents for it.

[Taelas]

My main problem with Sword and Board is that it makes it impossible to hold a steady rotation (unless you specifically save the proc until Revenge, Devastate and Devastate have been performed, but that means losing procs).

It's not a big deal, it's just annoying.