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Thread: Hand of Salvation Analysis (8/21/08)

  1. #21
    Indeed; it absolutely boggles my mind that anyone could be offended and angry at numbers -_-
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  2. #22
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    I am looking into reformatting it so it isn't as offensive in presentation. I think I will omit the second section as people seemed to have the most trouble with it. The first section had a decent amount of info in it anyways. The second section was just playing around to see effects and while I added the caviat that it wasn't very meaningful, some people still took issue with it, so I think I will focus on the first part.

    EDIT: Ok, I went ahead and reformatted the 1st part of my original post. I used all the same data, I just reworded most of the sections and added a few more charts to help illustrate what I was saying. I left out the 2nd part for now as it seemed to cause issues, but I might introduce it once I have had a chance to look at it.
    Last edited by jere; 08-23-2008 at 04:17 PM.

  3. #23
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    Jere, thanks for this post. It was a good read. Don't stop posting things like this imo!

  4. #24
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    I tried... I mean, I really tried to read the OP, but once the WALL O MATH hit, my sight faded and my index finger reflexively scrolled down to the next legible post... which was this empty "Quick Reply" box.

    So, let me simply ask for those of us not-so-mathematically-inclined... WTF does this all mean?

  5. #25
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    I apologize, my comments came over overly harsh. I do respect your presence in the community, both here and at MainTankadin. And you are one of the posters I recognize as posting quality.

    However, I did have a point though. More that the percentage reduction was less important than then actual reduction. Especially in the way it was presented. The suggestion that stopping DPS while HoS is up was more effective [and that's how it did come over] was incorrect.

    Regardless, there is something I would like to know.

    Is the math in this thread based off actual testing or just pure theory?

    If it's the latter, I personally think there are two equations equally viable:

    HoS_threat = current_threat - current_threat * .02

    or

    HoS_threat = current_threat - initial_threat * .02

    The difference would have a significant impact on threat reduction.

    I'm curious as to the response.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klimpen View Post
    Regardless, there is something I would like to know.

    Is the math in this thread based off actual testing or just pure theory?

    If it's the latter, I personally think there are two equations equally viable:

    HoS_threat = current_threat - current_threat * .02

    or

    HoS_threat = current_threat - initial_threat * .02

    The difference would have a significant impact on threat reduction.

    I'm curious as to the response.
    The math is based off of the tooltip given and is given with a bolded disclaimer of it being beta, so it is subject to change.

    I was going off of the tooltip:
    Places a Hand on the party or raid member, reducing their total threat by 2% every 1 sec. for 10 sec. Players may only have one Hand on them per Paladin at any one time.
    This would indicate current-current*0.02. I wouldn't think the game keeps memory in order to do current-initial*.02. It would have to hold onto Threat(t-1), which while certainly possible, seems like overkill. I would expect them to simply apply the 2% to the current value. Plus the tooltip really doesn't indicate applying it to threat you did 1 second ago.

    I implemented current-current*0.02, or rather current*0.98

    EDIT: Played around with current-initial*0.02. All current-initial*0.02 does is shift the results by 1 second. This means your actual/total threat would be (0.98^10)*TPS lower in a current-initial*0.02 situation. So if you were doing 2000 TPS, then the difference would be 1634 threat between the two implementations (in terms of total threat). If you were doing 1000 TPS, the difference would be 817.
    Last edited by jere; 08-24-2008 at 11:57 AM.

  7. #27
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    So I have been thinking about how to get the total/actual threat reduced from Hand of Salvation.

    Let's go back to the earlier equations:

    Threat done with HoSalv:
    Code:
                                  (0.98 - 0.98^11)
    Threat = (0.98^10)*AT + TPS * ----------------
                                     (1 - 0.98)
    
    Threat = 0.817073*AT + 8.96343*TPS
    Threat without HoSalv:
    Code:
    Threat = AT + TPS*10
    To get the threat reduced, we simply subtract them:

    Code:
    Threat_without_HoS - Threat_with_HoS
    
    AT + 10*TPS - 0.817073*AT - 8.96343*TPS
    
    0.182927*AT + 1.03657*TPS
    So the total threat reduced is 18.2927% of your initial threat plus 1.03657 times your TPS during HoS. Taking into consideration the threat generated during HoS occurs over 10 seconds, that means you basically get the two components of HoS threat reduction to be:

    Actual_Threat_Reduction = 18.2927%*Initial_Threat + 10.3657%*Threat_Generated_During_HoS

    Take caution in this. While you do indeed reduce your initial threat by 18.2927%, the 10.3657% of your threat generated during HoS assumes a constant TPS during the 10 second period, so it is approximate.
    Last edited by jere; 08-24-2008 at 06:13 PM.

  8. #28
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    Thanks for posting the info again

    I finally got around to looking at your math, and it is fine, despite my previous misgivings. What was clashing with my intuition was actually something slightly different, namely HoS threat reduction with regards to DPS time. That is, given the same DPS time (so if you didn't DPS during a HoS, this time would have 10s added to it), a larger threat reduction occurs both percentage-wise and numerically if you DPS during HoS.

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