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Thread: WotLK -- Tank Design Questions

  1. #1
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    WotLK -- Tank Design Questions

    I'm going to pose three specific but distinct questions for the community. Fair warning: This discussion crosses into a territory we normally avoid; as such, responses to this thread are going to be subject to heavy moderation. Expect this to be our focus through the weekend.
    Question 1 -- Abilities
    What abilities do all tanks need and what abilities do you feel make your specific class unique?

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    When you're in a raid and you are not able to tank due to encounter limitations such as a boss that only requires one tank, what role could you perform that would make raid groups less likely to swap you out? (Note: This is not asking for an explanation of current mechanics, but roles that would make sense for your class in the future)

    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    What are the most enjoyable and memorable encounters you've been in as a tank, and why? (Any size, from 5-mans on up)
    Rules
    • Responses should be entirely devoted to answering the questions.
    • Responses should be class specific to the character you've invested in the most.
    • Responses must not involve class comparisons and must be related to tanking.
    • This is not a debate thread.

    As with the previous discussion, I'll go ahead and start. I'll keep my answers focused on Protection Warriors.

    Question 1 -- Abilities
    I believe as many general abilities as possible should be given to each class. For instance, the ability to handle incoming magic damage through class design or through specific abilities should be equal across all tanking classes. I also believe that any anti-CC abilities (such as Berserker Rage for Warriors) that are going to come into play in raid encounters should be available to anyone who can tank.

    The only ability I've felt has defined the Protection Warrior has been Shield Slam. I suspect many would agree. The functionality and the scaling of it was so unique after the Shield Block Value change that it allowed for a lot of fun feats, gave Protection a burst-damage utility attack similar to other trees, and gave us some fun tricks to show off.


    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    For Warriors and tanks in general, there are three possible routes that I would be happy with.

    First, DPS. For Warriors in particular, this has been the core of our class for when we're not tanking and it makes the most sense, since DPS increases for Protection in raids also translates to DPS increases for Protection outside of raids.

    Second, debuffs. While applying a slowing debuff or an attack power debuff is by no means necessary, it does add value while we're in the raid. If there were specific debuffs available to tanks that was best used by players not tanking, this would make sense.

    Third, damage soaking. While there are abilities that reduce the target's chance to Hit and their Attack Power, there aren't many that actually transfer the damage to another player. While Intervene is nice for Warriors, something a little more stable for all of the tanking classes that would allow, say, a maximum of ~10% damage transfer or damage removal from the primary tank to the other tanks would help. For instance, if the goal was that raids would need 4 tanks for raid content, then a buff or aura that stacked 3 times for 3% damage each would be valuable to a raid. It would also fit squarely with a design that all tanks would appreciate. However, this kind of change would need to be tertiary to the other roles as it would not in itself make raiding enjoyable.


    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    I tend to enjoy encounters which are designed for multiple active tanks, particularly when they involve coordination among the tanks. This also produces virtually the only kind of environment where a tank can really pull of amazing feats to save the raid -- picking up more mobs than you're supposed to tank or grabbing an unexpectedly loose mob is what makes things exciting. Having all tanks adjust on the fly because one has died and being able to recover from it is an amazing feeling. I'll go ahead and list the ones I thought were handled best in relation to this (though I liked plenty of single-tank encounters as well!):

    Vaelastrasz/Huhuran/Kel'thuzad/Bloodboil -- Tank switching occurred because of incoming damage, and occurred as a result of tanks working closely with each other. Broodlord and Void Reaver fit here as well, though they require significantly less coordination.

    Firemaw/Ebonroc -- Tank switching occurred in a very specific manner related to the encounter mechanics (knockback/healing debuff). This made the use of Taunt important.

    Nefarian/Gluth -- Two-tanking Nefarian w/o Fear Ward, was something that Horde tanks took pride in. Gluth took this a step further by adding a debuff you wanted to have wear off, forcing Alliance to ease off Fear Ward as well.

    Molten Core/Razorgore/Noth/Karathress/Al'ar/Vashj/Kael/Azgalor/Thaddius/Illidan -- The idea of having multiple decently-difficult adds in an encounter seemed to taper off after Molten Core, but they really made the encounters more fun.

    Patchwerk -- Four tanks perilously close to death spamming Shield Block for dear life, developing potentially debilitating carpal tunnel on wipe nights? Count me in. This differs from secondary attacks on Supremus/Mother/Halazzi in that the tanks were planning health bars and fighting their keyboards like mad to make it work.

    Four Horsemen -- By far the most enjoyable and satisfying tanking encounter that I have seen in an MMO.

  2. #2
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    Oho! Very interesting. Some quick answers now. I'll likely expand later.

    Question 1 -- Abilities
    All tanks need to be able to take damage from serious boss fights, with both magic and melee damage. There can be some variation, but once the difference gets up to around 10% there's a hurdle that's difficult to overcome. Below that, there's some wiggle room. There's some room for variation between burst and overall damage input, but in general people will always prefer the "non-bursty" tank, because bursts are just too hard to deal with. (Note that this could change if we start seeing healers regularly OOM again with LK changes, or if bursts are smaller and more recoverable.)

    All tanks need active powers they can use (note that word active, it's going to come up again) in case of emergencies, or to deal with fiddly little pieces of fights. If there are fights that absolutely require defense against a certain boss ability, all tanks need some way to deal with that (even if it's not the same way for everyone.) For example, imagine a boss that deals a predictable burst of magic damage which can be Spell Reflected by a warrior. Another tanking class might have an ability that makes them immune to all damage for a short period of time, but unable to move (while retaining aggro). Another might have an ability sort of like Cloak of Shadows that could reduce the damage and allow them to keep fighting. If the burst is a fast DOT, perhaps another tank could have a short self-HOT fast enough to counter it. Short form: Every boss ability that requires a regular counter should be counterable by a reasonable tactic on the part of any tanking class. If they require a little bit of help from Fear Ward, say, that's okay--but if they require a dedicated team of priests to provide rotating Fear Wards, that's right out.

    All tanks need the ability to generate good amounts of aggro on enemies of all levels. Again, reasonable variation is.. well... reasonable. And again, 10% is probably a good rule of thumb for the maximum difference between tanks at a given gear level. (i.e. the difference between the best and the worst choice for a given encounter and role should be 10% at most.) This includes any conceivable scenario where threat has to be generated--the obvious cases are "one big boss tank and spank" and "lots of little guys AoE them down". However, there are others. Examples that spring to mind are small group tanking (i.e. two tanks, three mobs: you tank one and I tank two, we should each do about as well if we swapped it to I tank one and you tank two) and off-tanking on aggro-swap fights (that is: everybody should be able to build similar levels of threat when they don't actually have aggro.)

    These three areas are the core needs of all tanks: taking hits, dealing with unpleasant and unavoidable dangers, and holding aggro.

    As for what makes warriors unique... Shield slam has definitely been a big winner so far, as Cider mentioned. The patch where SS was added had a pretty awesome effect on the fun-level of my warrior. I'd say that before that, Warrior tanks just didn't really have anything cool. I mean... Sunder Armor? Really?

    However, I think that Spell Reflect and Intervene also have their place. Spell Reflect's major flaw is that there's a lot of stuff (not even boss abilities--look at Karazhan!) that it just doesn't work on. If it could be made to always work to at least some degree (even if that's reducing the next magic damage taken from any source by 10% on things that are otherwise "immune") it would be a lot more satisfying. As it is, it's kind of frustrating to try it on things and have it almost always do nothing at all.

    But if I had to chose one of just SR or Intervene, I think I'd pick Intervene. The damage prevention is nice, but the stylish way you zip over to save your ally is what really makes it kick. Again, it has some issues (can't help with magic, awkward with a boss that does giant cleaves if the next hit is a cleave and you're in the melee pack again before the cleave happens coughBloodboilI'llNeverDoThatAgaincough), but it's good.
    Going to delay the rest for now. Dammit, it's entirely too late for me to be up. Damn you, Ciderhelm!

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking

    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  3. #3
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    Gah. Sorry for the multi-post. I forgot this forum is not editable and quoted myself. :l Clearly I need to sleep.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  4. #4
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    Quite alright! I'll delete your second post in short order (or change your settings a bit so you can edit).

  5. #5
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    Difficult questions... I'll cover both my characters again, but due to the hour I will cover Paladin in a second post.

    Druid


    Question 1 -- Abilities
    All tanks need a: primary threat pump, secondary threat pump, Filler moves, at least one short and one long range interrupt, one or more stuns, the ability to remove a buff at varying degrees of power, Precise pulling tools, positional preparation ability (feral charge/intercept/shadowstep/etc.), several panic buttons for survival (berserk is a step in the right direction. now give us Barkskin (Feral)), and several panic buttons for threat.

    Abilities that make my class unique... that's hard. the defining trait of druid is that we're copied from other classes. In so much as this, our shapeshifting is our defining point. We have a few other interesting quirks: Faerie Fire (Feral) has an odd but special place as the most accurate pulling tool in all of tanking. Powershifting strategically to burst rage or break immobilization and slowing effects is powerful where allowed.

    As a result of being a mix match of classes, I find it rather unfortunate that from our Feral ability list and tree, which is loaded with things stolen from warriors and Rogue, we managed to not get a single panic button of our own or from either class.

    Our most powerful threat pump, Mangle, hardly even seems defining. It's rather strange, it's just a button on my hotbar, feeling rather naked with so many empty slots nearby it. I hit 2, 3, 4, 4 the same way a warrior does. (for the curious, I have heroic threat pump on next attack where warriors have revenge) it's Shield slam with an interesting debuff on it instead of a dispell.

    I feel we would be more "unique" as tanks if we were to be given combo point based attacks in bear form. As it stands we use rage the same way warriors do, it would be fascinating if we used both rage and combo points and used finishers as our secondary threat moves/utility. This would be a most effective way of giving us abilities like snares, attack or casting speed reductions, etc. while still not stepping into the realm of the random number generator (the current infected wounds talent, which really sounds like it belongs on the Death Knight- aren't diseases their thing?) or stepping on the toes of warriors (giving druids spamstring, etc.).
    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    A difficult question, Druid balance has always been predicated on the concept of cat DPS when not tanking and being available to Rebirth. I would offer that this is not what our value when not tanking is, at it's core. in effect, we are a buff class. Gift of the wild is a powerful buff that raids expect. Leader of the Pack is a versatile utility buff that allows melee to heal themselves to a point. we have heals that can "supposedly" be used, but only end up making the real healers laugh. Interestingly, using these heals and/or Rebirth takes away leader of the pack from our raid group - a conundrum.

    I would like to see this expanded further, to us being able to provide mid combat buffs and heals of a defensive nature to our raid. Battle shout and other offensive buffs are solidly the territory of the fury or MS warriors and I would never wish to step on their toes, nor would I wish to become a regular healer when not tanking. However, I sadly do not have much in the way of suggestions for changes to make. All I can really say on the topic is that I feel strongly that our "non tanking" role should not be predicated on DPS, CC or healing, but rather that we be focused on a defensive role with defensive buffs. Leader of the pack is, a defensive healing buff - the crit chance merely serves to heal you more often. Give us more in this vein.

    As an odd note, it could be interesting to have "lick wounds" or something in cat form that could be used to clear bleeds. But that's about all that's coming to mind at this hour.
    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    The list is fairly short, but:

    #1) Casting rebirth while tanking Halazzi.

    #2) Casting our last rebirth on a DPS'er while cleave splitting mother Shahraz, who contributed the extra DPS for us to get our first progression kill! Our other feral druid, who was main tanking Shahraz, blinked a few times and went "woah!" in vent when he realized what I'd just done.

    #3) Threat fights with other tanks on Void Reaver. I love threat fights.

    #4) tank swapping with bloodboil when the bloodboil groups weren't screwing it up for the tanks, if for no reason other than the fact that I had to intelligently add or remove threat moves based on the situation, rather than mindlessly spamming my threat rotation.

    #5) Picking up one of the horsemen my first and only time doing the four horsemen, at level 70. I panned the camera and just happen to see the tank assigned to him drop and went bear and charged him, taunted, and pulled him back in position. The fight gave a full raid of T6 players a hard time and we lost two tanks- obviously a testament to the quality of the design.

  6. #6
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    Protection Warrior

    Question 1 -- Abilities
    What abilities do all tanks need and what abilities do you feel make your specific class unique?

    I think all tanks need some sort of AOE viability, the ability to put out threat when they aren't being the main target (something like saberlash for rage/damage or hurtful strikes can be reworked to be less streaky), reactive buttons, and the ability to contribute raid utility. I think a lot of this has been addressed by Blizzard in the beta which is a great thing but I still feel that warriors contribute the least to raid utility. We have 1 buff that each warrior can bring, and if you have 2 dps warriors then it's already covered per party. Something raid wide, or just a longer duration in general would be amazing. The intervene mechanic, as useful as it is and as we can see from the talents in wotlk, is being pushed to be used more often but unfortunately, it falls short of a useful ability unless you have godly reaction times in raids (since most dps classes get 1 shot by bosses in which case an intervene won't save them unless you had some amazing reaction time). I think the greatest ability warriors had that made them unique was shield slam. It was amazing, snap aggro, scaling threat with SBV, good damage, dispelling buffs, and all this with a shield. It's the reason WHY so many people watched the movie '300' and IMMEDIATELY screamed "PROT WARRIOR!" when Leonidas shield slammed faces to the ground. I understand that we're now sharing a lot of our defining abilities with other classes come WotLK, which I understand as a necessity for their usefulness as a MT, but I'm concerned that with the abilities being distributed (again a good thing in my opinion), what is helping to keep our class unique? I hope Blizzard can come up with something amazing to fill in for Vigilance now that Shield Slam is trainable.

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    When you're in a raid and you are not able to tank due to encounter limitations such as a boss that only requires one tank, what role could you perform that would make raid groups less likely to swap you out? (Note: This is not asking for an explanation of current mechanics, but roles that would make sense for your class in the future)

    Everyone knows that MS PvE warriors provide huge raid utility through their AP increase to the melee group (especially if they have Solarian's Sapphire equipped) and the 4% raid wide debuff on the boss. I think the ability to switch specs with a cooldown between 2 specs for free would be pretty sweet. You could either switch it up into a more utility class, or into a dual wield fury machine that many warriors have made a name for themselves as. Since warriors are a melee only class, we really have limited viability without any form of CC or raid buff. I think obtaining some sort of buff that could be useful to the entire raid would be great. We've seen that druids are kept in raids because in kitty form they can put out a decent amount of dps. The change to devastate helped to bridge that gap for us prot warriors, stemming threads here that even brag about how great dps they were able to put out. Maybe with new itemization for str, this gap will further be closed for prot dps but an active mindset to help bump the dps numbers on a prot warrior's dps would be a good thing to have in Blizzard's minds. I believe raid flexibility and raid buffs are what determines who gets to stay and who gets to go.


    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    What are the most enjoyable and memorable encounters you've been in as a tank, and why? (Any size, from 5-mans on up)

    Seriously, every raid I've ever encountered (Karazhan, Zul'Aman, Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon, Serpentshrine Cavern, Tempest Keep, and Mount Hyjal) I thought were very memorable. Simply because I got to raid. The sheer fact that I was accomplishing something with a group of people that we couldn't do without the respective help of the others was something that made me feel great. Tanking every boss I could, or dps'ing down a bosses health bar, alongside friends made this game great to me. Probably the single greatest event while tanking though that I'll never forget is going into Shattered Halls. Accidentally fearing a mob through a wall somehow, and having to take on 8-9 elites all simultaneously. The priest healer called a wipe but the warlock and rogue said, No way... and I began thunderclapping and tab devastating all over the place to protect the healers. 20 minutes later, and with the warlock and rogue dead and ran back into the instance, blowing my AOE fear twice, and an oom ret paladin turned healer, and an oom priest, we downed all 8-9 elites without a complete wipe. This was endearing to me because it was one of the first few times I spec'd protection after getting to 70, after reading guides on how to tank, and gearing up as best as I could, and being told by my friends that I couldn't be the MT for a guild because I didn't know how to tank. I showed them. =P
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 08-19-2008 at 09:19 AM.

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  7. #7
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    (Prot Warrior)

    Question 1 -- Abilities

    The essentials for a tanking class are high health and armor, some form of damage reduction, a way to generate enhanced threat, and a means of regaining aggro once it's lost. Beyond those baseline abilities, I'd like to see as much variation as possible in the tools each class has to tank with, even if that means some tanks aren't suitable in certain roles on some fights (that seems to me like something that should be addressed as a level design issue, not a class balance one - if Class X can't tank in a given situation, make sure there's some other way for them to be useful.)

    For prot warriors, the shield is really what defines the class; it needs to play an even bigger role for us offensively and defensively - particularly offensively. More variation in shield itemization would be nice, too - rather than just one upgrade every tier level, I'd like to see a variety of specialized shields.

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking

    Being able to do a useful amount of raid dps wouldn't be unwelcome, but I can see how that could create a balance problem when paired with our survivability. Alternately, it would help our non-tanking viability to give us significant raidwide buffs that can only be applied when we're not tanking - for example, via an ability that only functions while the warrior remains in battle or berserker stance. I like the general idea of abilities that reduce damage on other players; however, it concerns me that this might lead to pigeonholing us into "off-tank" status.

    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable

    Vashj - brutal to learn, but a great test of all the key elements of tanking - survival, threat, and situational awareness.
    Ossirian - good test of both mobility and threat generation (assuming you don't cheese it by using the not-quite-an-exploit.)
    Gruul - a tank-and-spank with enough additional challenges to keep it interesting, particularly for the offtank.

    And any fight where all of my special abilities - spell reflect, taunt, stuns, shield slam buff removal - actually function properly on the mobs involved.

  8. #8
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    Question 1 -- Abilities
    What abilities do all tanks need and what abilities do you feel make your specific class unique?

    An aggro snap button like shield slam or mangle, a rage dump like maul or heroic strike, some defensive measurements like thunderclap and demo roar/shout, some form of AoE damage with decent threat like swipe or consecration, a reliable and fast way to pull (fast tanking-oriented ranged weapons, feral fairie fire, avenger's shield if it was single-target).

    You could tune the defensive abilities to better complement the tank design (like a feral druid, usually better at migitating slow, hard hitting bosses, would get a demo roar that reduces more attack power than a warrior's demo shout) or to compensate for them (same example as above, but warrior gets a better demo shout so he can migitate slow, hard hits a bit better.)

    In my opinion, Mangle is a defining skill for feral druids, because it combines the aggro snap of a warrior's shield slam with the lasting debuff to help out DPS similar to the Sunder Armor debuff (but better because it boosts bleeds which are not affected by armor)

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    When you're in a raid and you are not able to tank due to encounter limitations such as a boss that only requires one tank, what role could you perform that would make raid groups less likely to swap you out? (Note: This is not asking for an explanation of current mechanics, but roles that would make sense for your class in the future)

    At the moment, a feral druid can help out with innervates and battleresses, just like any other druid. The other utility options are Leader of the Pack, the Mangle debuff, Feral Fairie Fire, and Demo roar if you go bearform.

    Leader of the Pack is a nice buff for physical DPS, but perhaps the healing should be innate to LotP and Imp LotP could be similar to Hunting Party (chance to restore rage/energy/mana/runic power) - you don't really take a feral druid as DPS for the healing component of LOTP at this moment, just for the crit.

    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    What are the most enjoyable and memorable encounters you've been in as a tank, and why? (Any size, from 5-mans on up)

    Gurtogg Bloodboil -- working together with the other tanks to stay very close in total threat and threat generation, finding out ways to force a switch, etc.
    A real (tanking) team effort.

    Hydross the Unstable -- forced tank switching because of resistance and precise positioning combined with the need for fast picking up of adds. A bit chaotic, but an adrenaline-packed fight IMO.

    Netherspite -- a 'go all out' fight with a twist. Tanks don't have to worry about aggro when standing in the red beam, but you can't stand in it forever.
    Requires coordination from most of the raid for beam switching.

    Thaddius -- again a coordination-heavy fight. First the two sub-bosses, then the + and - game on Thaddius himself. Even switching from one side to another after a polarity switch can get a lot of people killed, but when you have a system going, it's all execution.

  9. #9
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    Warrior


    Question 1 -- Abilities:

    a)I think all tanks should be able to withstand all kinds of incoming damage magic and physical alike

    b)I think all tanks should be viable at single target tanking as well as aoe tanking.

    c) I think all tanks should have some kind of "Oh shit"- button to some extent.

    As a warrior i feel that there are a number of abilities that makes me unique:

    a) Shield slam: I think this is a defining ability for a warrior that bares a big shield and slams it into someones face :P aside from it being a huge tanking and threat ability i love the dispel procc and the fun it adds with the big numbers

    b) Stance Dance I just like the idea that we don't have to depend on a fear ward to handle CC

    c) Shield Wall I love it, I mean the moment you press that button you feel like a stone giant even for a couple of seconds you can take anything that the enemy can through at you


    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking:

    Well I think it's not that much about the dps a warrior can do when not tanking, I mean it's definitely a big plus but you give the tank who is taking the hits the opportunity to take his mind off of all the details like shouts and debuffs he could just stand there and pull all his focus into the boss abilities and the positioning and threat.


    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable:

    Well where should i start there are so many aspects to this

    a) Stance dancing, Archi, Onyxia, Nefarian, as i mentioned before stance dancing is just a defining ability to me

    b) Threat fights, RoS, Goerfiend, i just like to let the dps go crazy without pulling aggro

    c) Tanks coordination, Kalecgos, Bloodboil, I just love when it clicks between the several tanks, communication and understanding

    d) The big bad bosses with a ton of incoming damage: Brutallus, Patchwerk, i respect my healers for pulling that off

    e) And The Four Horsemen i mean bringing 6-8 warriors to a raid was just fun, Truly an amazing fight
    Y'rly!

  10. #10
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    Question 1 -- Abilities
    I for one think that each tankingclass should have different abilities to counter different types of bosses. having a tankcomposition with all the available classes, lets say 4 tanks, warrior, DK, pala, Druid. Each of these classes should be able to tank the bosses you face - BUT I would like to see that every class has something speciel that makes them preferable on that and that encounter. Thereby leaving the old MT role, and making all four tanks maintanks once and a while. I play a warrior, and as Ciderhelm said Shield Slam is really what makes tanking fun, big crits is fun even for tanks. What I would like to see is more active abilities, things you need to think about when to use - they say they're gonna change shield block into something more fun, a short CD shield wall or something, this is exacly what I mean - break our standard and boring 6sec rotation, with shield block every 10 secs, its boring as hell, MAKE TANKING INTERACTIVE!

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    Rather construct bossfights in a way that requires an active job of the remaining offtanks. Not necessarily offtanking, but maybe helping the raid avoid some kind of damage? blocking the way for "lazer-beams" or whatever, something that requires the tank to think and act!

    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    I mentioned that I prefer fighst with miltiple tankroles, vashj and kael comes to mind, they were great fighst with alot of tankroles. many of these fighst have already been mentioned by others but: the 3 dragons in BWL, tankswitching and taunting was actually really fun. Firemaw especially, positioning is something I feel was forgot when TBC came out, and taunting the boss off in the crucial moment before Wing buffet was a great offtanking role!
    Hydross for having 2 MT's and several offtanks, while also having a positioning aspect. Tho I hate bloodboil, it's a cool fight for a tank. Nefarian was great too, it also had multiple tankroles - tho it ended up with just one MT and nothing to do (as alliance atleast).

    I could go on, but I think you get the point. My final point and something I think is the most important for blizzard to think about, is that tanking in TBC has been boring and easy most of the time. DPS'ers are pressed harder and harder every fight, healers (as always) is stressed and under pressure in almost every fight. But tanks... most of the time they just press a boring standard rotation without too much concern, while the 3 offtanks watch television! WE WANT MORE CHALLENGING TANKMATERIAL! Make taking as hard and stressing as healing! make it active and fun!

    my 2cent!
    Last edited by Ciderhelm; 08-19-2008 at 02:08 PM. Reason: Removed unrelated section of question 2.

  11. #11
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    1) All tanks need something they can do to aoe tank through heals at least, though we shouldn't all be equal. I think what makes warriors unique is we are the masters of melee combat. We can not escape, cc, or heal. We must go toe to toe with our enemy and eat what we get. Our high health and superior mitigation define us.

    2) //edited: Read the question and read the moderation rules. - Cider

    3) shattered halls heroic is a blast as a warrior. Pugging that with a skilled group was the best 5 man I ever ran. In raids I love any big hitter that makes me nervous from start to finish.
    Last edited by Ciderhelm; 08-19-2008 at 05:12 AM. Reason: Moderation.

  12. #12
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    Going to start with Question 2:

    I would love to see some tank synergy during boss fights, that create situations for two or three tanks to be greater than one. Something like Intervene, but make it so there is a down side unless coupled with a second OT. Just a few examples off the top of my head. Some paladin related some not.

    For example:
    "Shield Guard"
    Boss is hitting Tank Alpha. Beta "shield guards" Alpha so that Alpha takes 30% less damage. The ability lasts 20 seconds but has a cooldown of 30 seconds. After the 20 seconds buff, Alpha takes 15% increased damage from the boss. Charlie uses his shield guard on Alpha to remove the debuff, and the rotation continues.

    Example #2:
    "Helping hand"
    "Hand your shield to target player. Threat generated while Helping Hand is active by you is misdirected to target. Target receives benefit of your shield armor but is unable to use weapon based attacks. Ability lasts 15 seconds."

    Example #3:
    "Guardian of Salvation"
    "Targeted player threat generated is split with player. Player cannot move or use abilities while guarding target. Target also recieves 30% less damage."

    Example #4:
    "Guardian of Light"
    "Targeted player's heals are 20% more powerful. Player cannot move or use abilities while guarding target."

    Example #5:
    "School Prankster"
    "Tie the shoelaces together of target, when target goes to move, you automatically emote laughter at target."
    The only thing better than being able to tank, is realizing that you no longer need to prove that you can.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    959
    Question 1 -- Abilities
    I think all tanks need a variety of similar abilities so that no matter who is stepping in to do the job that they can get the job done, but no boss should have an ability that is impossible for another tank to counter. Illidan's Shear for example.

    What I like about my warrior that makes her unique are the number of "Oh shit" abilities I have available. Many a time we've avoided a wipe because I've been able to shield wall through heavy damage, or Last Stand at low health.

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    Prot DPS isn't *that* bad if you're wearing DPS gear. Fury/Arms DPS however is bad if you have to wear tank gear. That, in a nutshell, is my biggest problem when you're not tanking because you constantly fall into one of those two categories.

    DPS, imo, is the only real thing that's fun on a boss fight if you're not tanking, unless you have a steady supply of things to off tank. Anetheron and Azgalor provide a lot of work for an off tank throughout the entire course of the fight which is fun. Nefarion forces you to tank for the first 5 minutes, and then stand around trying to do DPS in tank gear which is not so fun.

    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    Nefarion (Memorable) - I pointed out that this fight sort of sucked as an off tank once you got past phase 1. However, one of my most memorable boss kills of all time was when I was an OT on this fight. The main tank died from poor healer judgment and Nefarion looked at me because I was actively maintaining #2 on threat. I tossed a shield on and spun him back into position and finished off the fight. It felt amazing preventing the wipe, and it was the only time I was thankful about being in tank gear to DPS.

    Twin Emps (Memorable/Ejoyable) - Despite their huge degree of difficulty, I throughly enjoyed this fight because you had to be so surgical. A second delay could get you killed, or worse allowed them to heal. This was probably one of the most rewarding boss kills for me of all time.

    C'Thun (Enjoyable) - I love this fight. So chaotic, but so much fun. Running around in 4/5 Conqueror's with Ashkandi wailing on tentacles and being mindless DPS for a change was awesome.

    Flamegor (Memorable) - This fight needs off tanks for a reason. We had an unfortunate attempt where all the off tanks were dead by 40% and I was the last one standing. Instead of calling a wipe, they kept going and he kept dropping aggro like clockwork. Knockback, aggro loss, chase him down, taunt, reposition, repeat. It was the most intense 3 minutes of tanking in my life, and it saved us 20 minutes worth of wipe recovery.

    Illidari Council/Anub'Rekan/Major Domo (Enjoyable) - I love movement based boss fights that require constant movement of the boss. It's challenging because there's a much higher element of danger than just standing there.

    Patchwerk/Teron Gorefiend (Enjoyable) - Of course I love a good tank and spank. Patchwerk for the shear "Dead god please don't one shot the tank" and Teron for the TPS epeen and being able to pull far enough ahead of your DPS that they can go full out, which in turn lets them have more fun.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    5,805
    1- Abilities.

    I've always considered warriors to be the gritty, blood and guts type tank and our abilities should reflect that. As currently build, our threat rotations are an all out assault on the mob. I think the move to incorporate Strength, AP and damage in general as a key factor in threat generations is a welcome move. Currently its all based on modifiers and inherant values. I think being able to actually hurt the mob in order to hold its attention is more in line with what warriors should be.

    That said, I like having a variety of tools at my disposal and rather than a strict rotation, having if/when questions to constantly process makes it challenging. When to use HS, for example but additionally, when sword and board activates shield slams off the CD.

    I enjoy having Shield Slam as a critical utility for building threat. I'd love to see some way of incorporating a debuff or the magical effect removal function. I love the visceral feel of connecting on a solid SS and I think that is the closest we come to a defining ability. Warriors are masters of weaponry and and armor and I'd like to see us continue along those lines and remain the blood and guts tank.

    2- When not tanking I see us as support DPS. Again, this synergizes some with the idea of putting a greater emphasis on damage output from tanks in tanking gear and through a few talents. Sure there are some encounters that require a singel tank but there are many more protracted battles that present a main boss with multiple minions. Currently, once an OT gets their target down, if they are a warrior, they can only contribute weak damage the rest of the way. WotLK appears to be improving on this.

    Fully protection specced, there is no reason a tank should be able to equal the damage output of a fury warrior or other DPS classes but they should be able to produce meaningful DPS, perhaps 75% of a full DPS class given full damage oriented gear.

    3- Best Boss Encounters

    Illidan - I'm a little biased because I got an unexpected shot to tank Illidan last night. Its a fun fight and he hits like a train...well....on me in my flea market gear, lol. It pushes you to perform certain tasks (shield blocking shear), be mobile (out of the flame crash) and build threat like a madman. And you get a few breaks to catch your breath as the different phases occur. I don't like the fact that feral druids cannot mechanically tank that fight. Its just not good design to specifically exclude one class of tank.

    Nefarian - A truly epic encounter. as Cider alluded to, two tanking the fears was a bear and I was Alliance without a dwarf priest so no totems, no WotF. But we got it and put him on farm. It also made for an exciting moment one night when the MT went down and I was able to pick him up and finish the fight because I was keeping my aggro high.

    Nighbane - Really a neat fight and got the fear down with a timer long enough that it forced you to break it but didn't jib you with a CD when you needed to break.

    Broodlord - I honestly loved this fight and it spoke to the bllod and gut warrior mentality. It was a back alley brawl and he hit relatively hard for a boss of his stature. We used to see how long we could hold him before the knockbacks became too much of a threat reduction. I successfully held him start to finish once. Usually, he bounced around until about 20% when he turned on the Ashkandi warrior and splattered him across the wall.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    10
    Paladin

    1- Abilities:
    All of you have mentionned the same list of abilities that all tank should have so i won't add to it.

    Unique to paladin: a palatank can tank the whole world in one go as long as the heals keep coming... The main problem is our serious lack of oh-shit abilities. If it is going badly for us, well, it is unlikely to get better unless the healers can haul our butt out of the hole. This makes paladin particularly suited for encounters with a lot of small slaps in our faces. Unfortunatly, these encounters are not in high end game.

    2- value when not tanking:
    For farming: if I put on a mix of spell damage/high block rating stuff, i can farm a lot of mobs relatively quickly.
    In instance: the best bet is the healing set in the back pack. With the right itemisation (loads of mp5 + mana potion) you can offer a very good healing support for a encounter.
    BG: it can surprise few to encounter a pally tank. They expect an easy kill and have this hard to kill beast. Good for carrying a flag.
    DPS: useless.... a bit of burst but nothing for the long run.

    3- Memorable:
    - To me more is better... i just like pulling loads of mobs at the same time. It makes me happy every time to finish a fight with full health and full mana (usually means that the healer/healers have nothing left but it is worth it)
    - When you start a pug with someone asking you if paladins are viable as tanks and AoE tank the whole lot with the DPS running after you to keep up
    - 5 man instances: most of them can be done very quickly with a good heal + AoE DPS... The shattered halls are the best. Such a good fun to be high in the DPS list.
    - Kara is the best instance for fun value...

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    texas
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    2,437
    1. I have always felt that tanks should have some kind of splash damage attack, even if it was just a weapon enchant specifically for tanking. You are hitting mob A, and whether it was in the form of damage or even just threat, that your attacks also helped glue the mobs next to it to you. The only word I can think of to describe it would be "Awe", as in the mob next to the one you were attacking was knocked back or just frightened enough by your attack that it focus'd on you without you actually targeting it. As if it was identifying you as the most dangerous target in the party and focused on you the way a raid or group will focus on the hardest hitting mob first and cc the rest.

    2. I think the way they are changing tanking stats in the xpac will help prot dps considerably. The biggest problem I ever had with prot dw devastate was unless it was decided before the fight that you would not be tanking, just changing your weapons doesn't do much for your dps. By making strength a tanking stat, now tanking gear will also have a large amount of dps stats in the process.

    3. Never played before BC came out, so my favorite tanking experiences are probably considered pretty lame, but I honestly remember the first time I managed the fight sequence in blood furnace where you have to grab 3-4 mobs 4 times before you get to the boss. That to me was one of the first times that I felt like skill as a tank made us win, instead of everyone else killing stuff while I ran around like an idiot.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    615
    Thanks for taking care of my multi-post, Cider!

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    The BC answer to this is "not bloody much". Being the debuff person so that DPS warriors don't need to do it isn't a great answer here. Not a great answer at all.

    DPS as protection spec can be fun, but the DPS produced is not the world's greatest. It gets notably less lame in situations where there's a lot of raid damage flying around to keep the fires burning. But still, it doesn't really keep up. As fights get tighter and tighter on requirements (as they do with progression), it becomes more and more painful to have more tanks than you absolutely need. If prot warriors could routinely do 90% of the DPS of a DPS warrior in all sorts of conditions, that might be nice, but... that's still enough less DPS (especially counting the issue of getting DPS drops) that it would make more sense to swap. And even if it doesn't lead to a swap, switching to DPS isn't really... tanky.

    TK and SSC had a number of places where having 4-5 tanks (one feral) was a workable option, and not much in the way of DPS races. In MH and BT, having more than three isn't really workable. Because of the mechanics of some fights, having less than three isn't an option either—but those three-tanks-needed fights seem kind of like a band-aid: they feel like they're there just to keep tanks in work. Some trash requires a bit more, some requires a bit less. All in all, this variability in tanking requirements is kind of a downer. I mean, what would a raid ever lose by having only a single tank in the raid for Archimonde or Gorefiend?

    I think the right answer is to steal from JoanaDark's comment about (more or less) "when you are tanking, you are alone", and look at ways to change that. We all know that some multi-tank fights are among the most fun tanking fights in the game... but it would be nice to have that multi-tankness be part of the tanks at times rather than part of the bosses.

    Another thing to note (and this is what I was talking about when I said I'd mention "active" abilities again in the future in my first post) is that the activity from the backup tanks should be actual activity. On Mother Shahraz, we use a druid MT, with me and a pally in avoidance gear soaking the hits. I typically keep commanding shout, thunderclap, demo shout, and sunder armor up while I'm standing around... but I could practically just plant myself on the tank spot and then go AFK until the fight is over.

    That is clearly the wrong kind of multiple tank participation.

    On the opposite side, Void Reaver style fights ought to be pretty rare as well. In this case, everybody is fighting to build threat as fast as possible. Every tank in the fight is pouring on the abilities, trying to be efficient, trying to gain extra power to use more abilities, etc. It's purely a race for the tanks, and everybody is running hard.

    That's not the wrong kind of multiple tank participation, but it's also not what every fight should be.

    The happy medium is one similar to what we have now, with a mix of fights requiring different tanking components (single target, forced aggro swaps, complications requiring willful aggro swaps, groups of bosses, bosses with swarms of adds, untankable, exotic tanking, etc.) The key difference, though, should be that tanks should have the ability to reinforce each other or the raid (if they're free) in all of these scenarios.

    And that reinforcement should fit under the thematic umbrella of tanking: Soaking damage, holding aggro, dealing with nasty boss stuff.

    Demoralizing Shout and Thunderclap show one method of helping that extra tanks can do—but it's not very satisfying. For one thing, it's a pretty passive thing to do. You can do it while DPSing. In fact, DPS warriors are often called upon to use these abilities so the tank can concentrate on building threat and surviving. Intervene for warriors is a more active ability that's interesting, but it's more useful as an emergency measure than a general utility. It also can't be used effectively if the "non-tanking tank" is set up to DPS: you need a shield to use it, you need to be in defensive stance, and you need good gear to take a normal hit from the boss. The primary place I've seen this used is on Gruul to split damage input to the MT during silences, since silences come less often than the cooldown of Intervene, and since you can often afford to have one extra tank here who's not really contributing damage.

    So... what are the ingredients for an "off-tank" role that would be truly satisfying? It should be something that involves active work, but not at the same fever pitch as the MT. It should be something that tanks bring to the fight and other roles don't—not something that can be applied by non-tanking members of the same classes. Its effectiveness should be improved by many of the same attributes that improve actual tanking.

    Finally, it should optimally be something that continues to improve with more tanks around, making tanking a "team sport". The optimal scenario would involve situations where having only one tank was a drawback, having two tanks was reasonable and workable (and expected), having three tanks would continue to improve the situation (although perhaps not as much as the second tank did), and having more than three tanks would exhibit clear diminishing returns. This would have the potential to make the choice of "do we put another tank in this slot or another healer or another DPS" interesting at all levels of play.

    I think my best bets fall into a handful of categories:

    First, methods for sharing damage taken with the MT. This decreases the burst damage pressure on the MT while maintaining a similar healing load for the entire raid. The 10k damage is done and has to be healed, but if it's done as 6k/4k, the healers gain a lot more reaction time.

    Second, methods for reducing damage taken by the MT without sharing it. This would decrease the total healing load on the raid, so it should probably reduce the damage taken by the tank less than a damage split would. Perhaps the base 10k hit is reduced to 8k in this case: it requires more burst healing on the MT, but more mana is conserved over the course of the fight.

    Third and fourth, either or both of the above two mechanisms could apply to raid damage as an "umbrella" instead of to the MT. This would allow tanks to soak damage directly for the raid, reducing incoming environmental damage or damage from swarms of mobs. (That last is sort of like demo shout, only in this case it feels more "active".)

    All of the above four items ought to represent tactics that are unworkable if the person using the ability isn't in tanking gear. Intervene's real limit is "can you take the hit you just asked for?". The same thing should apply here. If the person splitting damage with the MT applies their own armor total to incoming melee damage, then they need to be geared up as a tank to provide that defense. Likewise, magic damage could be mitigated after the split by resistances, etc. The role of the "defender"'s HP pool should be clear. For something that doesn't actually involve the "defender" taking damage, the damage prevented from harming the MT could be based on the defender's stats. (I'm more in favor of the damage sharing, to be honest, since it feels more like tanking when you take actual damage. Still, variety means different classes can get different abilities.)

    A fifth ability that an extra tank could provide is something that augments the aggro generation of the MT. This is currently the province of hunters with Misdirect. It's unclear to me how this ought to work. If it were a "you get 10% of the threat I generate" kind of aura, a DPSing member of a tank class would clearly provide better support than a tanking member. One possibility would be to tie it to the "defender" abilities described above: you can only give aggro to the MT if you're willing to take part of his damage load.

    A sixth ability (which, surprise, we've already seen!) would be a mechanism that allow reducing the damage of other raid members. This is something some tanks seem to be getting already. To make this active, though, it would be better to have it be something based on the "protected" individual losing aggro equal to a portion of the aggro the tank generates. Having it be a flat percentage of the defendee's aggro produciton means you can provide that utility to the raid while AFK, which is undesirable.

    Finally, team emergency buttons. Intervene is a good example of this, actually. It can be used to try to defend the MT against a big hit when they're low on health, or it can be saved and used against burst damage abilities with predictable timing. Similar (but different) abilities could do all of the sorts of things described above, only "more so" and for a shorter time. Intervene is basically damage splitting that's complete (0/100) and which has a longish cooldown and only lasts for one melee strike. Another potential (different kind, though) of emergency button might be a quick "burst down threat" or "burst up threat" on a longish cooldown. Or a targeted Cloak of Shadows, or... etc. Again, these ought to be things that require tanking gear to do well.


    Sooooo, anyway. That was long-winded. The core idea is: Tanks should be able to contribute in tanky ways when not tanking. This means that their tank gear should contribute towards their performance, and that the utility they provide should be related to the core tanking abilities: soaking damage, managing aggro, and mitigating disasters. While other classes (or tanking classes geared and/or talented for other roles) might have some of these abilities as well, tanks ought to be the best at providing this service. These abilities should be active—you need to feel like you're actually working to do the best job you can—you might be able to slack off more than the MT, but not much more, and you certainly can't go AFK for any length of time. Adding more tanks should provide more of this sort of utlity... to a point. Assuming that there is a "goal number of tanks in the raid", having one less tank than the goal (in any fight) should be workable but uncomfortable. Having one more tank than the goal should provide an interesting trade-off of survival for DPS. Having more than one extra tank should feel inefficient. Having more than one missing tank should feel deadly.
    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    Hmm. My first time dealing with the "aggro reducing knockback" was on Broodlord Lashlayer. The hectic pace of "fight fight fight for agggggro!" was tremendous fun. This was near the time I started raiding, so I was excited to be tanking anything at all. That may color things.

    The drake fights were also all pretty enjoyable. I recall taunting Wing Buffets and sailing across the room. Tanking in BWL definitely felt like a team effort, most of the time.

    Getting in line for Vael to see how many tanks would die tonight was always a rush, although I joined my first WoW raiding guild just after they had finished with him.

    I liked Battleguard Sartura a whole hell of a lot—I'd heard so many times that "stuns aren't useful in raiding" that I laughed in delight when I realized how useful they were on Sartura. In general, I think this was satisfying because it was an "exotic tanking" fight in which the enemies were still tanked by tanks. Our strategy was to burn down one add, then put three tanks on Sartura and two on each of the remaining adds. The add tank teams would use taunts and stuns to maintain control, while the Sartura team used a taunt rotation shouted on vent (our MT went hoarse more than once on that fight.) Usually one of our adds would be down just in time for a Sartura tank to die and need replacement. Crazy and different and fun.

    Princess Huhuran was a tremendous pain in the ass because of the resist gear requirements, but was otherwise pretty interesting. Kurinaxx and Fankriss gave a sort of preview of what was going to happen here, what with the stacking debuffs and need to swap tanks around. But the reality of the fight was a different thing entirely. Having to swap between more than two tanks, while maintaining the highest possible threat output to burn Huhuran down quickly... It was a great payoff for the introduction of a new sort of mechanic to the game.

    Since I never made it to the really really fun fights in Naxxramas pre-BC, I think my favorite boss was the Twin Emperors. There was nothing really all that technically challenging here, but it was the first fight where I was one of the MTs for every kill. I was the tank who would tank Vekni'lash at the start of the fight, and I was the tank who could routinely land demoralizing shouts without aggroing any stupid yellow bugs. So I enjoyed that a lot.

    As for memorable moments... There are an awful lot of "oh my god, we finally got that boss down"s that everybody gets ecstatic about. But I think the memory I'll never forget is when I tanked Prince Malchezzar through phase 3 with... a fishing pole. ^_^;;; Whoops.

    I guess I remember the painful more than the pleasant.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    275
    Question 1 -- Abilities

    The damage reduction debuffs (thunder clap / demo shout) are required on a primary mob. The new warlock CoW, and attack speed debuffs for other tanks gives a raid plenty of wiggle room. Blizzard has solved that problem nicely.

    Many people have mentioned Shield Slam, but not mentioned the Dispel effect. There haven't been a lot of chances to use it in PVE content unfortunately. But it is fun being able to dispel bloodlusts on BT trash mobs. Since a variety of caster classes also have dispel mechanics, it is something that can give warriors a unique ability that wouldn't require a protection warrior over the other tank classes.

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking

    This provides an interesting challenge. While not expected to tank at all on a fight, a prot warrior can provide some DPS, but not enough for a progression encounter with a hard berserk timer. I think it's acceptable to respec for a progression fight where we need to provide a different roll, -if- it's expected that gear progression will soon allow us to keep the same spec & raid group for the entire zone.

    Applying debuffs was helpful, and still gives us some utility. Blizzard has provided more debuff options, but in WotlK I can still provide debuffs while the main tank can use threat abilities instead of debuffs, or the warlock can use a damage curse.

    The trick is giving us an active roll. The saber lash soak is a pretty dull roll on Mother Shaz, but better in ZA, where both tanks are active in different phases. A flame tank on illidan past phase two has a similar dilemma. Nightfall was fun while it lasted. An item that would be too crippling for a primary DPS class to use, but would scale well enough in tank gear to provide some benefit. Nightfall's base DPS was so low that it wouldn't scale well with the hit / crit / haste that a prot warrior doesn't have in tank gear, but it provided a reasonable raid buff.

    The challenge is both in class design and encounter design. Giving warriors more tools to actively prevent and manage damage in encounters, and more opportunities to use the wide variety of abilities that we already have would be nice. ( interupts, disarms, stuns, slows, etc ) Active use of those abilities gives a great deal of control in 5 mans, but always seem less useful in raid encounters.


    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable


    Trying to solo tank RoS phase 1 with block value, consumables, and cool downs is an interesting challenge.

    The coordination and intensity of Vaelestraz is certainly memorable, as are the add control encounters like Razorgore or Gothic. Allowing those mechanics to provide good encounters with out being rendered obsolete with better AOE tanking is an interesting challenge.

    Fights where you get to do a variety of different kinds of tanking are fun. Like Kael and Vashj.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,193
    Question 1 -- Abilities
    What abilities do all tanks need.
    ->Soak damage, from 1 or more mobs, keep their attention, some method to get the attention of a mob instantly.

    What abilities do you feel make your specific class unique?
    ->I play a warrior, and one of the most fun and frustrating things about him is the rage mechanic. (while bears also have it) I think that's what makes my class really unique. Take for instance magical classes: they all have a mana bar and they cast spells. There are lots of things which are the same for mana users, only the spells they cast are different, the mechanic is the same. Rage is unique.

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    ->When you're in a raid and you are not able to tank due to encounter limitations such as a boss that only requires one tank, what role could you perform that would make raid groups less likely to swap you out? (Note: This is not asking for an explanation of current mechanics, but roles that would make sense for your class in the future)
    ->I'd like ways to make other tanks perform better. Maybe some whispers in the bosses ears to make them extra mad at the current tank. Not so much a misdirect but a threat booster for the one having aggro.
    Instant boosts to the performance of a single player based on a rage mechanic. Some sort of rage dump which makes a targeted player become berserk for 1/10th seconds for all the rage you put in it (dumping 100 rage in it would net 10 seconds). Or maybe even a group.

    One of the things I'd really like is some shield mechanic and a taunt which works in pvp.
    :You shield a player absorbing x damage or x% for a specified time.
    :You taunt a player, targeted players target is switched to you for 5 seconds.
    In general, more ways to play prot in pvp other then tanking Stormpike.(I played another mmo before wow and there a tank could taunt in pvp and the target player would have his target switched to you instead of your squishy mate, that enabled a lot of fun tactics which made tanks also desirable in pvp.)

    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    What are the most enjoyable and memorable encounters you've been in as a tank, and why? (Any size, from 5-mans on up)
    ->Killing Hex-Lord with a PuG, I like the fight, the odds were against us and still we pulled it off.
    Memorable: My first time tanking (and killing) nightbane, mostly because when he was at 25% and Landed I had 3 misses/parries/whatever in a row which made him go after my teammates, 4 people were dead before I managed to get him back. Amazingly we managed to kill him thanks to very skilled teammmates. This was a very important encounter for me because it opened my eyes and now I'm not only stacking stamina anymore but also hit and expertise.
    Not really memorable but certainly enjoyable: Tanking Twin Emperors as a 70. I haven't had the joy to play endgame as a lvl 60, I stepped in too late so I had never done the fight, we only wiped once.

    Tanking *cough* kiting the striders on my *cough* shaman *cough* *cough* *cough* I'm a reroller and I don't think I'll roll back to my shaman. DPS:slamming one button (if paired with a sp 2) Healing: you might as well turn off all graphics and fill your entire screen with health bars, you don't see much else during a fight anyway, no, I don't want to go back.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    29
    From a Protection Paladin's Perspective:

    Question 1 -- Abilities
    What we all need to have:
    1) An active means to mitigate incoming damage and boost threat (stance/aura/form)
    What we all should have:
    1) A active means to mitigate incoming spell damage
    It's no secret we paladins covet the warrior's spell reflect as well as their ability to inturrupt (yes they require stance changing in some cases, but at least you have them right?) At present we have 2 abilities that add up to a meager amount of passive mitigation/spell avoidance, i have not bothered to spec into either talent ever.
    2) A fairly uniform assortment of "oh sh!t" buttons
    This is being addressed in wrath from what i have been reading w/ the paladin's shield wall-esque form of bubble and a parallel to last stand in our modified lay on hands, i am content with those changes
    3) An active means to counter fear based effects
    Nothing is more aggrivating to the prot paladin than running around in absolute terror. It is fundamentally against our lore as well, being justified in our faith in the light and having umpteenmillion points of experience facing some of the most horrifying things the undead has to throw at us, one would think we'd be hardened or dare i say, immune to fear by now. On the subject of lore, why are we not immune to disease either? wasn't that supposed to be a pretty big perk to being a paladin?

    Question 2 -- Value When Not Tanking
    For the paladin specced prot in the raid, we bring several things to the table:
    1) Buffs, wipe prevention and Ressurects
    DI's, blessings galore, and one more person to help rez in the event of a wipe are oil to the gears of a raid.
    2) Semi-decent off healing ability
    I'll be the first to admit my heal gear is pretty terrible. A ragtag assortment of KZ/ZA throwbacks gets me just barely over 1.3k+ heal. 5 Holy lights and i'm out of mana and in that heal set my HP is roughly cut in half. Fights like Naj'entus i almost feel like a liability in my heal gear because i'm only 2k over the minimum necessary to survive his shield pop damage. Nevertheless, some heals is better than no heals right?
    3) Swarm pack add control
    Fankriss comes to mind for an encounter the modern prot paladin would have excelled at. The tanking warrior has his work cut out for him with the main raid boss, but who will take care of the numerous adds that are summoned in the fight? Prot pallies bring a great degree of control to swarm based elements in encounters

    Question 3 -- Memorable/Enjoyable
    - Being able to tank a pretty decent amount of bloodboil's non-felraged phases with clever use of trinkets and bubble to clear the acid stack
    - successfully tanking the murlocs in the tidewalker encounter
    - etc etc. Prot pallies have come a very long way from relative obscurity and discrimination, to progression tanking any boss that does not mandate spell reflect and in some cases, stance dancing.

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