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Thread: regarding Defense cap and healers?

  1. #1
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    regarding Defense cap and healers?

    So today i was doing heroic Botanica and we had a Holy Priest healing. He asked my what my Defense was because I was "taking a lot of Damage". I told him it was 499. He retorted with "You need to be Defense 520 to be uncrittable.. no wonder you are taking a lot of damage.. you are getting critted".

    My shaman friend and I were highly confused by this. Neither of our logs were showing ANY crits on me in any fights and we tried to argue with him that it is 490 for crit cap... anything above that is just a bonus to your avoidance.

    Now I do know that my resto shaman friend can never pop out "Big heals" on me because i end up dying before they get it out. Is there something I am doing wrong? Is this the healers issue? This happens mostly when Multi tanking.

    He was trying to convince me to take out some stam gems and pop in some defense. Which i told him no very politely. If i take out any stam gems it will be for dodge or shield block.

  2. #2
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    An Armory link would help however with what you're tanking you probably just need more gear/Stamina. 490 is indeed the cap for uncrittable and the priest is completely clueless. If he doesn't know the defense cap he most likely doesn't know how to heal.

    If you're dying on multi-mob pulls you need to design your party with a decent amount of CC. Heroic mobs hit hard, dont be discouraged.

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  3. #3
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    He was wrong. You guys are correct.

    Satrina's Guide lays it out very explicitly, and as you guys saw for yourselves, No crits were happening. He was probably just not healing properly, what's your stam and armor btw? Your avoidance should be perfectly okay for tanking if you're spec'd normally and with 520 defense and tanking gear.


    Oh and to respond to the above poster. yes, heroic trash hits very hard. VERY VERY HARD for new players, some heroic trash hits harder than karazhan bosses. So a lot of healers are not used to this type of thing. Heroics is the beginning transition when healers need to proactively heal and not reactively heal.

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    I've got a shaman alt and one thing I see new tanks doing is not making sure all the mobs they are tanking are in front of them. It's got to be the most common problem I've seen amongst new tanks and it results in a lot more incoming damage. It may not be the issue in your case, but I've seen it often enough to feel like raising it just to make sure. When you make a pull, just be sure to back up or turn or do something to position yourself so that none of the mobs are hitting you from the side or behind.

  5. #5
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    the mobs are all in front of me.

    Oh and here is the armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory

    sorry


    I also just replaced the enchant on my cloak with a dodge enchant.

    My health unbuffed is 14673 and my defense is 499

    My dodge is now 16.59% parry is 15.96 and Shield block is 22.3%

    EDIT: Stamina is 971 and armor is 15138

  6. #6
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    Yeh, you're numbers are probably better than when I first started doing heroics. There's absolutely no reason why you can't do em, just bring some more CC and fight less mobs at once. Even at high end levels of gearing, you shouldn't try to tank 3-4 mobs if you can avoid it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  7. #7
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    Yea your stats are fine and the healer was fed miss information and probably has yet to learn that stuff hits hard in heroics (some heroics)..

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    Your gears a whole lot better than mine was when I started heroics, I agree with the above posters that your healer has the issues and not you. You still need to be more situationally aware, make sure you're keeping TC and demo shout up if possible and keep your damage to a minimum but I think your shaman is too used to 'easymode' instances and has yet to face the challenges of heroics. Try him on the second boss in heroic magisters terrace, that's a healing nightmare right there
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    i know part of the problem is our horde pop is less then the Nelf Hunter population on Azuremyst so finding people for greoups isnt easy..

    Lately I have been ending up in groups with maybe 1 cc if I am lucky.

    so with stuff hitting a lot harder in heroics.. should i drop some of the stam gems and place more Dodge or parry rating gems?

  10. #10
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    No, Stam is gonna help you in any situation where you're having trouble surviving an encounter. Lots of it is healers just learning to pro-actively heal. They have to basically start healing you the moment the fight starts, and not stop healing you till it's over. A lot of healers are used to non-heroics/non-raids where they wait till the tank has taken damage, then start casting a heal. Once you ramp up to Heroics, you'll discover this no longer works, and you basically have to have the heal coming even if the tank is at 100% because during your Cast, he'll probably take some damage. If at the end of the cast, the tank is still at 100% you can just cancel the cast with a quick step forward or back and start up another heal.

    Parry gems are fail, don't touch them. Dodge if you're really hurting for avoidance, but from your stats, You're already set for any heroic, it's just a matter of learning the fights, and having competent healers and cc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
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    Thank you so much guys.


    You have all really helped me understand this. This is my first level 70 character and I have an awesome time tanking. So glad tankspot is here.

  12. #12
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    And we're glad we can help people =] Welcome to the site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
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  13. #13
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    Definitely minimize the multi-tanking on heroics and remember to concussion blow and spell reflect on caster pulls. Healers like less incoming damage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    Oh and to respond to the above poster. yes, heroic trash hits very hard. VERY VERY HARD for new players, some heroic trash hits harder than karazhan bosses. So a lot of healers are not used to this type of thing. Heroics is the beginning transition when healers need to proactively heal and not reactively heal.
    So true. The other day I looked at my combat log and couldn't believe that the fel guards at the end of BF were hitting me harder than Prince crushes! Luckily they can be disarmed and stunned, unlike Prince.

    Quote Originally Posted by bosephus View Post
    I've got a shaman alt and one thing I see new tanks doing is not making sure all the mobs they are tanking are in front of them. It's got to be the most common problem I've seen amongst new tanks and it results in a lot more incoming damage. It may not be the issue in your case, but I've seen it often enough to feel like raising it just to make sure. When you make a pull, just be sure to back up or turn or do something to position yourself so that none of the mobs are hitting you from the side or behind.
    This is something to consider too. I did this a lot when starting heroics. It stemmed from bad habits I picked up on normal mode where I would move to position mobs so I could see my healer. Help for spotting guys breaking on my healer, but a lot of times I would move in such a way that exposed my back. Since I could get away with doing this and not come close to dying, I got lazy and never noticed the extra unnecessary hits I was taking.

    Let's just say getting 3 shotted on the first pull in H Ramps and I learned my lesson.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post

    Now I do know that my resto shaman friend can never pop out "Big heals" on me because i end up dying before they get it out. Is there something I am doing wrong? Is this the healers issue? This happens mostly when Multi tanking.
    Can't pop big heals? What? Your shaman's a liar, or he sucks.
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  16. #16
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    may i suggest as it hasnt been already unless i skimmed over too much :P

    that you maybe have been being crushed

    using recount or xperls grimmreaper is an invaluable tool for tanks. to analyse your death.

    if you didnt keep shield block up, or if there were simply too many mobs this may have been the problem.

    also as a suggestion there are a few packs in botanica. the ones with greenkeepers and the humanoids near the demons that do a soul drain, are slightly out of proportion to the rest of the instance. having both tanked and healed it i know that you have to be careful with those packs. oh and the arcane flurry from protectors.

    of course you are right about the crit cap. but i would suggest using a mod to log your deaths, so that you can analyse what went wrong.

    if you went from 100% to 0% in less than 3 seconds. then its not really the healers fault. and there must be something you can do to avoid it.

  17. #17
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    You can't get crushed in Heroics since the highest level mob is 72 in there.

    There is always the possibility of taking a bad string of hits. I know I've done pulls where I'm popping shield wall last stand immediately cuz my health is drops below 20% in about 2 seconds. Yet other times, the exact same pull never puts me in danger.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    He was wrong. You guys are correct.
    Oh and to respond to the above poster. yes, heroic trash hits very hard. VERY VERY HARD for new players, some heroic trash hits harder than karazhan bosses. .
    Tempest Forge detroyers anyone? You should remind your healer to start precasting as you make the pull, I find the biggest influx of damage in an heroic is the first contact with the pull.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    No, Stam is gonna help you in any situation where you're having trouble surviving an encounter.
    hum.. the threadstarte has almost a huge amount of hitpoints but (in my opinion) not that much avoidance. so if the socket-bonus is good (i.e. 4dodge-rating, 4 or 6stamina, etc): go for it and socket machting colors.

    in most cases you will decrease the incoming dps.
    the only heroic where you really benefit more from a big hp-pool than from more avoidance is MT.

  20. #20
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    Since starting this thread I have gotten some upgrades.. my avoidance has gone up byt a decent amoutn but debating what I should get next.


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