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Thread: Improved defensive stance: why so much negativity?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prunetracy View Post
    The reason Imp Defensive Stance isn't that great is because there are generally better options.
    For an encounter that's got heavy incoming damage with even a moderate amount of magic damage where your survival is challenging and essential to the fight, there are no other options. You can't compare survival talents to threat talents and that's the mistake always made when calling Imp Defensive Stance not worth it.

    The reason why people have trouble fitting it into their spec is that they've got talents like Imp Heroic Strike and Imp Sunder Armor that they consider must-haves when they aren't.

    You just have to open your mind to specing for the encounter. I mean what's 50g when you can easily spend 300g in deaths and consumables in a single night of attempts.

  2. #22
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    Spec what you like, as long as you get the 'essential' talents, i.e. Deflection, Toughness, Defiance, Last Stand, Shield Slam, Focused Rage, and Devastate. Anything else is not going to make a huge difference, as long as you choose a somewhat-beneficial talent to replace it. Depending on the talent, you might or might not even notice it.

    Personally I am a fan of 12/5/44, but I certainly see the benefits of IDS, especially on magic-heavy encounters.

    Vene, I am not really disagreeing with you, but you can't really call it a difference between Improved Sunder and Improved Defensive Stance... unless you're something like 8/5/48, where you've already spent other points lower in the Prot tree. 12/5/44 can't take IDS over IS, purely because they can't go deep enough into Prot without those points.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    For an encounter that's got heavy incoming damage with even a moderate amount of magic damage where your survival is challenging and essential to the fight, there are no other options. You can't compare survival talents to threat talents and that's the mistake always made when calling Imp Defensive Stance not worth it.

    The reason why people have trouble fitting it into their spec is that they've got talents like Imp Heroic Strike and Imp Sunder Armor that they consider must-haves when they aren't.

    You just have to open your mind to specing for the encounter. I mean what's 50g when you can easily spend 300g in deaths and consumables in a single night of attempts.
    I think we agree, we're just saying it differently. Improved Defensive stance is worth its points for high magic damage encounters where survivability is an issue. The OP asked why tanks don't take it, and the reason is that in most circumstances the mitigation benefit isn't worth the talent points. Unless you're working on a boss where those 3 points are crucial, it's simply not worth taking them.

    And since it's the exception rather than the rule, I feel safe in saying that Imp Defensive Stance isn't as good as other options for most warriors.

  4. #24
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    Keeping IDS for all encounters baffles me; it's right up there with tanks who have only one set of gear. If a fight has ass tons of magic damage and it's a progression encounter, we're all in agreement, take IDS. But if it's not progression or not a lot of magic to begin with, you are not maximizing your potential. As a real life example of how crappy three talent points in IDS can be, I give my last Gorefiend kill : 10% of the damage I took was magic (24 hits at avg of 1503 for a total of 36086) Had I had the the three talents in place even if the talents really did remove a flat 6% I would have only mitigated 2156 damage or 90 damage per hit. If that came down to being life or death you have worse problems than not having IDS
    Last edited by OnourisofRavencrest; 08-02-2008 at 01:29 AM.

  5. #25
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    Saying things like "Had I had the the three talents in place even if the talents really did remove a flat 6% I would have only mitigated 2156 damage or 90 damage per hit. If that came down to being life or death you have worse problems than not having IDS" seems kinda egomaniacal to me. I know that when I die, and my health is at 0, I sure wish it had been at 90 instead of 0. Taking this talent is like stacking armor. Sure, upgrading a peice and gaining 100 armor (or less) may seem insignificant~think that's about what, .1 or less mititgation? But every time I die, I wish I had that .1 health instead of none.
    Also, where would you put those 3 other points anyway
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedrawrf View Post
    Saying things like "Had I had the the three talents in place even if the talents really did remove a flat 6% I would have only mitigated 2156 damage or 90 damage per hit. If that came down to being life or death you have worse problems than not having IDS" seems kinda egomaniacal to me. I know that when I die, and my health is at 0, I sure wish it had been at 90 instead of 0. Taking this talent is like stacking armor. Sure, upgrading a peice and gaining 100 armor (or less) may seem insignificant~think that's about what, .1 or less mititgation? But every time I die, I wish I had that .1 health instead of none.
    Also, where would you put those 3 other points anyway
    imp shield wall. id be willing to bet that the extra time granted by imp shield wall stops alot more damage then imp defensive stance does throughout the course of a raid, even if you only use it once.
    Last edited by Magnuss; 08-03-2008 at 09:54 AM. Reason: typo

  7. #27
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    thing is I have imp shield wall too

  8. #28
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    In progression raiding i have always used imp D-stance. there is no reason not to mitigate more damage. most of the other talents like imp taunt/imp bash/imp revenge are worthless for raiding really.

  9. #29
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    IMO for a main tank there is no talents better than imp def stance.

    ANYTHING you can do to make yourself take less damage is what tanking is all about. Plenty of bosses weave in magical attacks alongside their melee, and plenty of heroics are full of various casters, which are often the only mobs which have any chance of killing me in a heroic.

    Imp revenge: use concussion blow

    Imp taunt: concussion blow and mocking blow should take care of any extra taunts you need

    Imp shield wall: I use this to save me from a damage spike, once the healers have got me back to full it becomes usless for me, extra time is not needed.

    Imp disarm: lol?

    Last stand: Once again, saving yourself from damage spikes, this is gold

    Most other optional talents are threat based and their usefulness would really depend on how much you struggle with your threat generation, or how good your dps are.

    Personally i have dropped out points in imp TC because the other tank in my raid keeps that up for me, and he has 3/3, allowing me to build better threat with more points in cruelty. IMP HS and IMP sunder are great for me considering i tank like to tank in high avoidance and have a tighter rage budget than most tanks.


    Then again i dont do kara. However, IMP def stance might just save you from nightbane, he breaths fire and is in my opinion the most challenging fight for a tank in the instance.

  10. #30
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    @Slob

    Use a macro for mocking blow if you have difficulty changing stances, I am only leveling a warrior now and I rarely use mocking blow but its not that hard since i have it bound to 1 in battle stance at most it takes 4 seconds touse

    you read the bit about last stand wrong, you siad exactly the same thing as teh poster you quoted. Last stand can save you from a damage spike killing you both of you said the same thing and yes last stand is absoloutely gold.

    Barely any prot talent is necessary, your point is? if someone feels they do better with a certain talent its their choice. Imp shield wall isn't a bad choice but there are certainly talents that id rather have but its a personal thing.

    Imp defensive stance falls into the catogory of pvp talent, 90%~ of all damage is melee unless your threat is unrivalled then id see better use for talent points in arms. I dont view it as essential unless you are in a bleeding edge progression guild. Chances are once you have the bosses on far you respec anyway to put more points in arms for threat due to insane dps from locks =)

  11. #31
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    Slobash, your entire attitude towards discussion belongs on the WoW forums.

  12. #32
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    Wow, flame warz are teh cool

    In all seriousness, Imp. Defensive Stance HAS ITS PLACE. Some take it, some don't. It all depends on the content you're facing, your gear, your raid support, and your personal skill level.

  13. #33
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    What it really boils down to is what Vene said over at his tanking tips site...

    Spec for the encounter. Imp Def stance is not going to be usefull on stuff that isnt doing loads of magic damage. I did not have it through all of Kara, Gruuls, and Mags.. It was just not pertinant for me as there wasnt enough magic damage going around.

    Now that we are in SSC and TK, especially on fights like hydross where I can still get hit with magic dmg for 18 or 19k (let the debuff stack to 250... woopsie!) I put that talent in, because it is worth the damage reduction on the boss.

    There is never going to be 1 cookie cutter end all be all spec. Rochelle said that at Tank hard, Vene has said that, And I would be willing to bet no tank here worth his salt as a tank would say "Yep spec xx/xx/xx is THE spec, the only spec, nothing but the spec so help me God!" Just like there is no 1 single end all be all gear set up. Some fights need threat, so you put threat gear on, some fights need avoidance, so you put avoidance on, some fights need resist, so you put resist on, some fights call for high EH, and less Avoidance, so you put the high EH gear on. Being a tank is all about being flexible, knowing your fights and knowing how to get the most out of the gear and talents you have as well as how to get the most out of the abilities you have at your disposal and when to use them.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    Slobash, your entire attitude towards discussion belongs on the WoW forums.
    Flames have been removed. Please refrain from flaming anyone here, we're not the wow forums, and that includes people flaming Flamers. It doesn't help, it fuels the fire.

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  15. #35
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    Apologies, was making a joke which was missed.

    The stuff I posted which actually was on topic;

    Last stand good.

    Imp DS good for SSC/TK, i've dropped it now in favour of imp HS for BT/Hyjal, Hyjal especially has a lot of dps race style fights.

  16. #36
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    It's still pretty solid for BT. Just about every fight has non-trivial amounts of magic damage flying around.
    Generally, I find that if I've got enough rage that heroic strike is a regular part of my rotation, the extra 4 points in arms aren't going to make a big difference, because I've still got lots of rage. Fights were I'm more likely to be threat capped are low rage environments (like hyjal) where I'm not using a lot of HS anyway. And am using a lot of high threat gear. Since I'm not going to respec on the fights where HS is in a nice middle ground (farm content) 8/7/46 with IDS works out pretty good.

  17. #37
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    The problem isn't that improved defensive stance doesn't help, because it does. The problem is those 3 talent points can get you a lot more in other places. 2 points in imp demo is just one example.

    That being said, the only time I remember improved defensive stance helping me out a lot was when I had built a set of gear to tank Hydross in the nature phase the whole fight. (Before this was fixed.)

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Link View Post
    The problem isn't that improved defensive stance doesn't help, because it does. The problem is those 3 talent points can get you a lot more in other places. 2 points in imp demo is just one example.
    I have that too

    8/7/46? What am I missing? I think it really comes down to Sunder Armor vs Imp Defensive Stance and which one you consider valuable for a given fight.

  19. #39
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    Not only do I favor 3 less rage on Devastates over Imp Defensive Stance, but I also favor 3 less rage heroic strikes over 8 defense and 2 seconds on my shield wall.

    It's all situational, with your guild's perspective of things being part of the situation

    My guild is very reckless when it comes to threat, and their ideology, although flawed, is that if I die, it's someone else's fault, but if someone pull's aggro, it's mine.

    Thusly, I have specced around this and luckily for me, the squad of healers I have behind me is nothing less than exceptional.

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    Last edited by Link; 08-08-2008 at 10:41 AM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    8/7/46? What am I missing? I think it really comes down to Sunder Armor vs Imp Defensive Stance and which one you consider valuable for a given fight.
    I need Imp. Sunder to get into the bottom of the tree, while keeping IDS.
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I don't feel that I'm missing out on anything, but then, I don't value Imp. Shield wall. An ability that I use, at best, every half hour. And as such, can't rely on having it for progression attempts anyway.

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