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Thread: 515 Defense rule?

  1. #1
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    515 Defense rule?

    So here is the story. I'm an OT in a 6/9 5/5 Bt/Hyjal guild. I have tanked everything up to Azgalore in hyjal and Teron in BT just fine. One day i upgrade a piece of gear (dont remember which) and lost a little defense. Currently at 506. The next time i tank Azgalore i was told i was taking huge spike damage. Same thing was on Naj, and Teron. I couldn't figure out why. Someone told me that there is a 515 defense rule where a tank NEEDS to have a minimum of 515 defense to even enter BT/Hyjal. Is this true? Any feedback/support is most thankful. Thanks

    -PaperTowel

  2. #2
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    Defense adds to your block/dodge/parry so the more you have, the less you take damage due to those blocks/dodges/parries but it's only a rather small noticeable difference. My guess, bad RNG

  3. #3
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    Wow you got to your level and you don't know how it works I am shocked.

    The defense cap is 490 and it's for being crit that hit from a boss is going to hurt and be life threatening.

    Next beyond that is uncrush which means your dodge/parry/block and miss adds up to 102.4% ... 102.4% because you are fighting a level 73 boss its higher than you and has increased odds to hit you.

    At that point you will either miss/dodge/parry or block every attack .. so the only damage you are taking is the damage from a block that exceeds your block value.

    Stacking defense beyond 490 is okay as someone already said it adds dodge/parry and block however beyond 490 you also really want to stack dodge rather than block because anything dodge/parried is no damage a block still involves damage.

    So generally once you have 490 defense you usually stack dodge all the while making sure you maintain 102.4%.

    If you dont know how to calculate it go to Warcrafter bring up your toon and put up shield block does it read greater than 102.4% and should be a nice orange.

    So my guess is your change in gear has taken you below 102.4% and you can now be actually "hit" by a boss hence the increase in your damage ... in other words your an no longer uncrushable.

    If you are still uncrush the other thing that can change is the piece that you took off had high dodge stats and what you put on has high block. If a mob hits harder than 2K avoidance works better than block to mitigate the damage ... that is pre sunwell it all changes out there because of the -20% avoidance.
    Last edited by uglybbtoo; 07-22-2008 at 07:31 PM.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Wow you got to your level and you don't know how it works I am shocked.

    The defense cap is 490 and it's for being crit that hit from a boss is going to hurt and be life threatening.

    Next beyond that is uncrush which means your dodge/parry/block and miss adds up to 102.4% ... 102.4% because you are fighting a level 73 boss its higher than you and has increased odds to hit you.

    At that point you will either miss/dodge/parry or block every attack .. so the only damage you are taking is the damage from a block that exceeds your block value.

    Stacking defense beyond 490 is okay as someone already said it adds dodge/parry and block however beyond 490 you also really want to stack dodge rather than block because anything dodge/parried is no damage a block still involves damage.

    So generally once you have 490 defense you usually stack dodge all the while making sure you maintain 102.4%.

    If you dont know how to calculate it go to Warcrafter bring up your toon and put up shield block does it read greater than 102.4% and should be a nice orange.

    So my guess is your change in gear has taken you below 102.4% and you can now be actually "hit" by a boss hence the increase in your damage ... in other words your an no longer uncrushable.
    Passive Uncrushable for Azgalor is neither required nor desired. Stacking dodge after hitting 490 Defense isn't at all what people "usually" do.

    PaperTowel, my guess is that it's something along the lines of Curse of Recklessness being up without a 5/5 imp demo shout or you've decided to stop chain chugging Ironshield Pots when you used to. It could even just be that your raid doesn't have Priests and Shamans healing you for the 25% armor buff where as in the past you did have them healing you. It could be so many factors. I can guarantee that losing 9 Defense Skill won't make that big of difference. Now... if along with that 9 Defense skill you're suddenly using far less Armor, Dodge and Parry too... well then you know where the issue is. (so maybe you're just using too much new threat gear)

    Best of luck regardless, I'm sure you'll do fine this week.

  5. #5
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    /quote veneretio
    Passive Uncrushable for Azgalor
    /unquote

    WTF are you talking about no one is talking about "Passive Uncrushable" that implies that you have 102.4% without shield block thats like a toy gearing that has no practical use other than some very minor boss fights.

    As I said and clarifying the defense cap is 490 not 515 and thats for being crit.

    If you drop say 2% dodge for 2% block on a hard hitting boss YOU WILL NOTICE IT I PROMISE YOU

    Azgalor:
    Melee: ~8k on plate
    Cleave: Frontal Cleave ability which hits for ~10k on plate with a knockback

    Blocking a few hundred damage from one of those versus completely avoiding it I know which I would take.
    Last edited by uglybbtoo; 07-22-2008 at 07:59 PM.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  6. #6
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    Now Now lets all get along lol. Thanks a bunch for all the feedback

    I knew what defense does. And i know how to be uncrushable. The problem was i was just being hit hard, not crushed. It might have been some of the things veneretio said. I'll do some more research on what happened to me. Thanks for the help guys

  7. #7
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    No probs and good luck .. it was just the weirdness of bringing up "passive uncrushable".

    And to complete precision you cant take a crushing blow from Azgalor anyhow he doesn't crush so it cant be that.

    Final comment if you understand uncrush where the did you get 515 from cause they need to be beaten.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  8. #8
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    Could it be that you're getting parrys far more with your kit change than you used to with the previous kit? Check your expertise level just in case.

    -- gyre --

    p.s. oh, and ugly... leave the attitude on the blizzard forums. it isn't required here, kk?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Next beyond that is uncrush which means your dodge/parry/block and miss adds up to 102.4% ... 102.4% because you are fighting a level 73 boss its higher than you and has increased odds to hit you.

    At that point you will either miss/dodge/parry or block every attack .. so the only damage you are taking is the damage from a block that exceeds your block value.
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    WTF are you talking about no one is talking about "Passive Uncrushable" that implies that you have 102.4% without shield block thats like a toy gearing that has no practical use other than some very minor boss fights.

  10. #10
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    /QUOTE
    If you dont know how to calculate it go to Warcrafter bring up your toon and put up shield block does it read greater than 102.4% and should be a nice orange.
    /UNQUOTE

    So even though not specific in the sentence you quoted its obvious from this I was talking about 102.4% with shield block.

    My finally comment on the subject from the guide from here itself

    Mount Hyjal Rough Boss Tanking Guide - TankSpot

    "try to boost your stamina and avoidance as high as possible"

    Sorry for the attitude ... over and gone
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  11. #11
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    :: points to the Elephant in the room::

    Azzgalor CANNOT Crush, so yeah I'm passively Crush immune on him.
    Last edited by Ilya M; 07-23-2008 at 12:21 AM. Reason: Readability

  12. #12
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    I'm so confused right now.

  13. #13
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    It is almost impossible for a warrior tank to have 490 def and be under 102.4% avoidance + block with Shield Block up... the only way it would be possible is if he was wearing a mix of pure dps gear and enough green "of defense" gear to get to 490.

    I believe the confusion was in your implying that achieving 102.4 was the next step after getting 490 defense when it is pretty much automatic with any kind of tanking gear that will get you to 490 defense.

    And 490 is in no way shape or form a "cap". It is a minimum. I believe I am currently at 540 defense. Defense is still the second best avoidance stat after dodge by a very close margin. It is also much easier to stack in gear W/O sacraficing stamina by socketing for dodge.
    Last edited by mattdeeze; 08-01-2008 at 10:04 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattdeeze View Post
    It is impossible for a warrior tank to have 490 def and be under 102.4% avoidance + block with Shield Block up...
    Corrected, removed the almost...

    Naked level 70 warriors can not be crushed aslong as they use shield block (ok they have to have a shield)

    5% base avoidance to all avoidance stats (gonna include block since we are talking about crushes) = 20%, 5% from parry in arms and 3.2% from anticipation = 28.2%

    Shield block = 75%

    75+28.2 =103.2 = naked prot warrior with a shield and shield block

  15. #15
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    Since we are being exact:

    We also need to add so long as a shield charge exists. For a warrior that is 2 charges assuming you specced right. This is one consideration for multi tanking.

    Finally it assumes the mob is infront of you and you are not stunned or incapacitated.

    It assumes the damage is melee in nature ... magical damage goes around blocks and can only be resisted or reflected.

    In any of the above you are going to be hit and the only mitigation will be your armor value which is why armor is still vital to a tank.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  16. #16
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    To answer PaperTowel's question, there is no secret 515 Defense rule. More defense will simply allow you to avoid more attacks, but you know this already. Maybe you can try this; If your raid is running WWS (or if you are running Recount), then over the next couple of weeks, fight Azgalor in your old tanking set, and then in your newer tanking set. After the raid, read the WWS or Recount for the two different fights and see what your numbers look like. Also, during the fights themselves, keep an eye on your buffs and see if things like Inspiration or Ancestral Fortitude are missing. Then keep an eye on Azgalor's debuffs. Is everything there?

    Large spike damage can be a bunch of different things. Keep an eye on it all and try to weed out the possibilities.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    It assumes the damage is melee in nature ... magical damage goes around blocks and can only be resisted or reflected.

    In any of the above you are going to be hit and the only mitigation will be your armor value which is why armor is still vital to a tank.
    Since we are talking about Crushing Blows:
    Magical attacks cannot crush and are not mitigated by armor.
    Supreme Gnomish Tanking since 2007.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khayra View Post
    Since we are talking about Crushing Blows:
    Magical attacks cannot crush and are not mitigated by armor.
    Sorry bad grammar I excluded magic from the discussion by the line

    /quote
    It assumes the damage is melee in nature ... magical damage goes around blocks and can only be resisted or reflected.
    /unquote

    But the bad use of "In any of the above" can prob lead to confusion I conceed.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

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